sbarber49
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Posts posted by sbarber49
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I agree. Too many parallel 5ths, bass line following the top line, clumsy and inept harmonic progressions, lack of melodic interest. I don't think it's well written at all. It's interesting to see how DGM has managed to avoid the basic tenements and rules of harmony and yet still created something truly insipid.
I am also about to introduce a new setting. I've never seen a satisfactory non-responsorial setting of the Gloria, which I blame entirely on the unmusical metre of the words. I will certainly get a copy of the St Thomas Mass by David Thorne as a lot of you seem to recommend it.
I think the Murray setting is at least unobjectionable and, after a quick look-through, I don't see the consecutives and ineptitutude to which you refer.
Has anyone done any of the Alan Wilson settings? I used to do the All Saints' Mass and found it quite good.
Stephen Barber
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Details here, a large amount of this organ is by Cavaille-Coll.
http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N02353
I last played it in 1978 and then it was an exciting instrument, capable of extremely authentic French sounds.
What does a Cavaille-Coll Tuba Mirabilis sound like?
S
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Could I suggest Musicianship?
N
Good thought! Perhaps, then, it wasn't the sequencer that was to blame for the lack of space between movements of a trio sonata that you mentioned - perhaps it was a lack of musicianship!
You might even say that the sequencer would help in this aspect of playing as the player can judge the space using his/her musical judgement, rather than the space being dictated by the number of stops to be added or subtracted.
S
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Then there was the question of the space between movements of a Trio sonata and sometimes the proper space between works.
N
This seems an extraordinary argument to be used against sequencers/steppers! Pity the poor pianist who doesn't have stops to pull out and push in - how on earth are they to know how long to leave between movements of a Beethoven sonata?
S
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I have actually had students (before lessons!) and attended concerts (where a beautiful console and stops were in evidence) and saw no use other than pistons and sequencer and general crescendo. The music in my estimation suffered and the stops were only there to create the often bizarre i.e. illogical registrations. But that's just me and my dreary damp-rag view. Sorry.
Best wishes,
Nigel
I can understand that overuse of pistons means that the registrations can be unimaginative. However I don't see why use of the sequencer needs to have a detrimental effect.
Stephen Barber
Not that I have one - haven't even got generals!
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No, but apparently there were two LPs done at the same time in this series. The first was Croyland, the other was another "Spectacular", this time from Thorney Abbey. According to my source that had Ad Nos on it, and a couple of Tuba Tunes, but my collegue does not know the label.
R
No, sorry, Roffensis. No "Organ Spectacular" could ever have been recorded in Croyland Abbey.
You couldn't play a tuba tune in Thorney Abbey (a very fine Bevington/Hill, fairly recently restored). You could play a Keraulophon Tune, or a [swell] Cornopean Tune or a Cremona Tune. Which do you think?
I'm afraid your colleague is having a laugh.
Stephen Barber
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Yes indeed. I did dither about whether to put inverted commas around 'old' but decided against. It is an old skill but, as you say Nigel, that doesn't mean it is less necessary today.
Although many recitalists these days seem to do virtually all their registering with their right foot on the sequencer/stepper pedal. Takes all the fun out of watching!
Stephen Barber
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There was a film including someone doing Vierne III Ist movement at Croyland Abbey.
R
Dear Roffensis,
Have you any evidence for this?
The organ is 12 stops - all 8' & 4' (although a mixture recently replaced the dolce).
I still don't believe your earlier posting about a recording of Reubke on it. Did you ever manage to get any more information on that one? (I did PM you.)
Stephen Barber
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Does anybody play this piece (should it be Finale?)? I learnt it about 20 years ago and recently dug it out as I was looking for something "different" to finish with. Has it been recorded? Do we know the year(s) it was written? The marking is allegro maestoso - what metronome mark is recommended?
Thanks
Peter
Try this link:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OFPXI2f...esult#PPA151,M1
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But that is exactly how Bach himself "programmed" them when he printed them as the first and last movements of Clavierübung III. There they are separated by a load of chorale preludes and 4 duets.
Simon Preston played one of the duetti at his Prom Recital. I'd never heard any of them before. Does anyone here play them?
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And wasn't it Tovey who said that to deliver an authentic performance of a Bach cantata, the choirboys would have to be given a sound thrashing afterwards for getting things wrong...?
I much enjoyed the St John Passion conducted by Gardiner at the Proms the other day but I did wonder how "authentic" the choral singing was. It was so beautifully shaped, but would Bach's choir really have sung like this? Huge amounts of dynamic contrast - more Virgil Fox than Walcha. The chorales were certainly phrased in a way that a congregation couldn't have.
Mind you I have grave reservations about a concert performance of one of the Passions in the middle of the Summer anyway.
Stephen Barber
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I'm not sure these are ballet shoes, strictly speaking - you couldn't do 'points' on them, for example.
JS
Sorry, you're quite right. They're dance shoes, not ballet shoes, and I can't do "points" in them: I either need to buy new shoes or stick to playing the organ.
Stephen Barber
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What about the "Suite in Blue" by Michel (in Jazz Inspirations 2) - the Sortie at the end always goes down well (I've only played a couple of movements).
There's a good jazz arrangement of "When the Saints" by Kenneth Baker in something like "Jazz pieces, Home Organ Library volume 7". (Actually it's here: http://www.sheetmusicwarehouse.co.uk/details.php?ref=53080)
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Yes. My Wyvern Sonata (Content D4300 re-badge) has pedals which I'm sure are smaller than the norm, the sharps are only about an inch and a half above the naturals and they are quite short too and the whole pedal experience is rather narrow. If I am playing slow (read 'simple') then I can play in socks with no pain or problem, it is mainly with faster Bach style passages that I need to use the dance shoes I bought.
Oliver.
I am about to buy a toaster for home practice. I was considering a Wyvern so the above worries me. Can anyone suggest a good (but cheap) organ? I've been considering Wyvern Sonata, Viscount Vivace 40 and Allen CF2. Since this is a pipe organ site, please PM me if you have any useful advice. Apologies to Manders - I do play a proper organ on Sundays (a 1917 Harrison)!
Stephen Barber
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I had the good fortune to turn pages for Charles Harrison (Lincoln) at Christchurch Priory on Wednesday night. As well as being an assured and supremely musical player, he has a formidable pedal technique. I had a quick look at his shoes after the recital (with his permission, and after he had removed them...)
They were (apparantly) dance shoes, with a think flexible leather (or faux leather) upper, a suede sole flexible from just in front of the heel forward to the toe, and a 1.5" heel (which he said might be better built up just a little more). They looked fairly similar to Organmasters.
I know that dance or character shoes are supposed to be good for pedalling, but I've done a quick search of various dancewear websites without any obvious matches appearing. Do people have any comments on the use of these types of shoes and recommendations on where to pick them up without acquiring a second mortgage?
I use ballet shoes and have found them great - bought from a local ballet store. They're by Freed and are called "Rhythm Collection". They are similar to these:
http://www.movedancewear.co.uk/product_inf...products_id=363
Stephen Barber
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Are you suggesting then Stephen that Messiaen should be strictly played absolutely exactly as the composer suggests in his score? (and without reference to the performer's own virtuosic interpretation, the instrument being played upon, and the overall environment of the performance?)
No, I'm suggesting that:
1) I thought (I suppose I should have done the IMHO thing) it was too fast. Not a Meditation on the miracle of God coming among us but merely an exciting showpiece.
2) I should be able to express that opinion without being accused of holding it because I am jealous of his ability. (As a matter of fact, his playing is so far out of my league that I'm not!)
By the way, I've just come in from an absolutely stunning recital by John Scott in Peterborough Cathedral. Fantastic use of the organ (and not everyone makes Peterborough organ sound good).
Stephen Barber
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I agree with this. And I think those who are criticising the performance of Wayne Marshall are really missing the point (or several points) of the performance.
Firstly, the acoustic of the Royal Albert Hall is virtually dead, almost muffled in its overall effect. I think you can get away with fast passages and alternative emphases and still enjoy (and understand) the music.
Secondly, how many times have artists in the past deviated from the markings on the score (any score for that matter) and stamped their own authority on interpretation and the performance overall? I don't think creative musicians such as Messiaen would expect future artists and performers to be straight-jacketed by his own wishes (just in the same way that Dupre would never have constrained Cochereau in his performances of Dupre's work - indeed there is verifyable evidence that he encouraged Cochereau's ultra-symphonic style on the NDdeP organ).
And lastly, I wonder how much envy may be interpreted in some of the criticisms levelled here on WM's performance? I agree that some passages were too slow (or over-emphasised), and the last chord certainly was way too long, but the overall level of virtuosity, skill and musicianship displayed by WM (and in his career to date) would be beyond the wildest imaginings for some of our criticising contributors to this Forum. This, I think, is the rub here, and of course rubbing salt into the wounds of the significantly less gifted will always hurt.
I am significantly less gifted (to put it mildly) than Wayne Marshall, but am moved and thrilled by fine performances by organists. If you are suggesting that I (and anyone else criticising the performance) is guilty purely of envy then I find that a bit insulting, frankly.
I'm sorry that I missed the point (or several points) of the performance.
Stephen Barber
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Do you consider it to have no connection with the French toccata tradition, Stephen?
Of course it's a French toccata, but it's also a meditation. It was played so fast it was just a showpiece that, to my ears, didn't come off anyway. Would any members of the audience who were unfamiliar with Messiaen's organ music have got any idea of what it's all about?
By the way, I loved the playing of the Beethoven Rondo but, on glancing at the BBC Messageboards (too many to read properly), I see that I seem to be in a minority of one.
Stephen Barber
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Sorry guys, but I think that there's a lot of unnecessary carping going on here. Wayne Marshal is a brilliant player who has a highly individual but utterly gripping performance style. Rather than compare his interpretation with that of other organ virtuosi, maybe we should be drawing more general comparisons with the playing of, for argument's sake, Nigel Kennedy or the late Sura Cherkassky.
Also, WM was playing to the Proms audience - knowledgeable, sophisticated music lovers - not organ anoraks (of whom, let it be said, I am the chief). I watched the concert with my wife (an accomplished musician with little interest in the organ as a solo instrument). Her comment was,
'If you could play Messiaen like that, I wouldn't mind if you played his stuff every day.' - - - I wish!!
I don't think removing Dieu Parmi Nous from the context of the 9 Méditations and treating it as a "play it as fast as you can" show-piece/toccata does Messiaen any favours.
Stephen Barber
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Sortie (from the Suite in Blue) by Johannes Matthias Michel goes down well (in one of the Jazz Inspirations books).
Stephen Barber
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It's quite interesting coming to these books 30/40 years after they were published (after i was given them by someone)
Mathias - playable and useful, and the Preston is a good piece that i really hope gets released as a single copy or in a book that is available. But of the rest? The Leighton is ok, and as Peter said maybe the Nocturne.
But other than that? IMO limited.
Does anyone play any other pieces from these books?
Then there's the EASY Modern Organ Music volumes. The Leighton Fanfare from the first book is a very effective piece but, from memory - I haven't got the books here, I don't think many of the other pieces in these volumes have stood the test of time very well either.
Stephen Barber
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Yes the abbey is magnifiecent. My friend considers it finer than Westminster Abbey in some respects. He told me that the abbey fell into ruins, or part of it, when the Monks were dissolved.
R
You can find a picture (and more information) on the website here: http://crowlandabbey.org.uk/index.html
The original abbey must indeed have been magnificent but only the north aisle is left. I'm still anxious to know about this "Mighty Collossus of Sound" on the 12 stop Binns, including the Reubke. I still don't believe it! Who was playing? Can you get any more information?
Stephen Barber
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The cover refers to "The mighty Binns Collossus of sound". My friend also tells me it is indeed the Lincolnshire one.
Hope this helps.
R
Any chance of some more information? I really want to know what's going on here. Who's playing?
Stephen Barber
Christmas Postlude
in The Organ
Posted
I've replied to Philip via PM, but I'll give some further links/suggestions below:
Fuga a la Noel
the eponymous above-mentioned Rudolph
my own Toccata Nervosa
Best to all,
- G
Where can I find the Fuga, please? It sounds fun. I've looked on your website without success.
Stephen Barber