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Complete Mission Praise


bourdon basher
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Whoever was the "msucial advisor" to this appalling publication, they deserve to be stripped of any musical qualification they are unlikely to have; or was it a way around various copyrights, I wonder?

 

MM

 

Funny that you say that, I’ve often thought exactly the same thing. Who was the “musical advisor”, anybody know?

 

:lol:

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or was it a way around various copyrights, I wonder?
I would doubt it. I'm no lawyer, but surely the copyright in the melody would still exist however it is arranged. Likewise, if the words are still recognisably the same hymn I would have thought the author could still claim his intellectual property rights, however much someone else might have altered them. But if a tune was originally harmonised by someone other than the composer then a different harmonisation would circumvent the copyright owned by the original arranger. I think.
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If you are looking for a comprehensive hymnal, Laudate is pretty good, excellent value for money and the congregation copy has melody lines for many items. It has most of ther trad hymns and many of the best of the new but it does have some rubbish unfortunately - including, inevitably, I Watch the Sunrise and How Great Thou Art. But of the whole is a a good production.

 

Peter

 

And other rubbish such as "On Eagle's Wings". There's a lot in it, and a lot of rubbish too.

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I would doubt it. I'm no lawyer, but surely the copyright in the melody would still exist however it is arranged. Likewise, if the words are still recognisably the same hymn I would have thought the author could still claim his intellectual property rights, however much someone else might have altered them. But if a tune was originally harmonised by someone other than the composer then a different harmonisation would circumvent the copyright owned by the original arranger. I think.

 

 

==========================

 

Quite true if the TUNE and even the HARMONY are within the prescribed period, but of course, you forget that copyright can also be claimed by publishers, and if you change it a bit, you are then saved one set of copyright royalties and permissions.

 

With older stuff, you can get out of any liability simply by altering the already published editions.

 

In any event, the publishing world tends to buy things on comission, and THEY hold all subsequent copyrights.

 

I believe this to be RIFE in Hymns Old & New.

 

MM

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In any event, the publishing world tends to buy things on comission, and THEY hold all subsequent copyrights.
Don't I know it! I can't even copy my own editions where OUP has bought the copyright from me. The fees weren't that great either. I guess I could always edit the pieces anew with different decisions...
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Guest Barry Williams
Funny that you say that, I’ve often thought exactly the same thing. Who was the “musical advisor”, anybody know?

 

:lol:

 

 

As far as I have been able to ascertain, the musical arrangements were made like that as a matter of policy in the very first version, which was intended for unison singing in Roman Catholic churches. The subsequent hymn books have followed that initial style.

 

My enquiries have revealed no musical adviser or consultant or, indeed, who it was that mangled the words. It appears that it was all done 'in house'. If I learn otherwise I will post details.

 

Barry Williams

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Guest Lee Blick
As far as I have been able to ascertain, the musical arrangements were made like that as a matter of policy in the very first version, which was intended for unison singing in Roman Catholic churches. The subsequent hymn books have followed that initial style

 

Hymns Old and New (Catholic version) was concieved as a congregational book with material for use with 'cantors' i.e. a vocal soloist and not for usage with choirs particularly.

 

I agree there are plenty of shortcomings, but I have used this book to good effect, especially with congregations/parishes with little or no resources. The 'liturgical' material provided and the section where verses have been written to a particular Sunday theme with familiar hymn tunes are useful.

 

Anything to do with 'modern' choruses and songs, if you just read what is on the page you will find the accompaniments are pretty awful, it is up to you to re-arrange or adapt them so they sound more musical.

 

I rather like "On Eagles Wings", it is popular with children and there are other nice songs if you are willing to trawl through all the crap there is about.

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Try offering clergy with ideas like that some REAL modern music, such as Riff, Hip Hop, Rave, Bop. Pop, Heavy Metal etc.
Well, exactly.

 

If I look across to my CD collection, I find Leftfield, Goldie Lookin Chain, Gogol Bordello, Durutti Column, Afro-Celt Sound System, Underworld, and countless others. (And, to be honest, that's pretty out-of-date for "modern music".) That, of course, nestles next to the Durufle, Messiaen and Vierne. I suspect yer average happy-clappy clergyman's reaction to Underworld would be exactly the same as to Messiaen - blank incomprehension.

 

Though I still don't know what "Riff" might be. :lol:

 

Richard

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I rather like "On Eagles Wings", it is popular with children and there are other nice songs if you are willing to trawl through all the crap there is about.

 

 

 

Agreed. It is tuneful but also challenging and soundly based on scripture. I don't know of many "happy clappy" pieces which start on the leading note - and it has a delicious moment when the melody note of G in the refrain temporarily clashes with the bass F#.

 

Peter

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As far as I have been able to ascertain, the musical arrangements were made like that as a matter of policy in the very first version, which was intended for unison singing in Roman Catholic churches.

 

Barry Williams

 

 

=======================

 

This is quite true, but it doesn't excuse the number of real blunders, where the harmonies of the accompaniment are clearly wrong.

 

I'm no hymnody expert, and pople swear by all sorts of books, such as the New English Hymnal, or A & M revised, but I think possibly the best of them all has to be the old Congregational Hymn Book, of which I have a copy, but which I have never seen used for a long time.

 

Even the psalms are included, with excellent chants and more or less perfect pointing.

 

It's an object-lesson in how to do it.

 

MM

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I rather like "On Eagles Wings", it is popular with children and there are other nice songs if you are willing to trawl through all the crap there is about.
I like "On Eagles wings" too. But it's not easy for a congregation to sing and many will find it a little swine to play on the organ as every verse is different.
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Guest Barry Williams
=======================

 

This is quite true, but it doesn't excuse the number of real blunders, where the harmonies of the accompaniment are clearly wrong.

 

I'm no hymnody expert, and pople swear by all sorts of books, such as the New English Hymnal, or A & M revised, but I think possibly the best of them all has to be the old Congregational Hymn Book, of which I have a copy, but which I have never seen used for a long time.

 

Even the psalms are included, with excellent chants and more or less perfect pointing.

 

It's an object-lesson in how to do it.

 

MM

Is the hymnal you refer to the one edited by Eric Thiman? That was indeed a fine piece of work.

 

Barry Williams

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Guest Andrew Butler
I like "On Eagles wings" too. But it's not easy for a congregation to sing and many will find it a little swine to play on the organ as every verse is different.

 

I do it with a cantor singing the verses, the congregation joining in the chorus.

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I like "On Eagles wings" too. But it's not easy for a congregation to sing and many will find it a little swine to play on the organ as every verse is different.

 

Agreed! We did it last week and I wouldn't do it again! It's a very nice hymn, but folk found it difficult to sing, and I found it difficult to play and the page turns were very awkward. It really needs a piano or guitar backing.

 

At the RC church I play for, we use Laudete, which I think is very good (although I'm not entirely sure how to pronounce it! :unsure: ) At two of the Anglican churches I play for, they use Hymns Old and New. I didn't realise it was such an offensive publication! At the other Anglican church where I occasionally play, they use Common Praise, which I like apart from the fact that the words are not written in the music.

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It does us ok.

 

AJJ

 

Even though all the arrangements, even of the modern stuff, are really poor, and the words are butchered? Take a look at O Little town for example - he's swapped round the How silently verse, for a start!

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Even though all the arrangements, even of the modern stuff, are really poor, and the words are butchered? Take a look at O Little town for example - he's swapped round the How silently verse, for a start!

 

Point taken!

 

AJJ

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I don't think I would feel able to stay in post if the incumbent imposed a change of hymn book without involving me in any consultation.

 

AMNS was a strange collection. Many parishes previously had AMR together with either or both of the hundred hymns for today supplements. This combination provided a pretty decent selection but the man in the pew didn't like having to deal with two or three different hymn books. AMNS attempted to get round this but was always a flawed concept as many worthwhile hymns from AMR were ditched in order to accommodate all 200 HFT even though in practice many of these had never found their way into regular use (and were never likely to do so).

 

NEH I could never see the point of. It really has so little recent hymnody in it. It seems a token hymn book so that EH devotees can show that they've moved on without really having done so.

 

To my mind Common Praise offers the best all round collection of mainly traditional hymns but with a fair selection of more recent hymns added too.

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NEH I could never see the point of. It really has so little recent hymnody in it. It seems a token hymn book so that EH devotees can show that they've moved on without really having done so.
Though New English Praise, the recent NEH supplement, I really like. It even has an arrangement that almost makes 'Be still for the presence of the Lord' bearable. (Almost.)
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