Frank Fowler Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Should the Great and Pedal Pistons (or other Manual to Pedal Piston Couplers, if there) be affected by the General Cancel? FF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajt Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Should the Great and Pedal Pistons (or other Manual to Pedal Piston Couplers, if there) be affected by the General Cancel? FF great and pedal pistons? I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean should General Cancel cancel out "Gt & Pedal Pistons Combined"? If so, I prefer it if it's left alone by general cancel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJJ Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Should the Great and Pedal Pistons (or other Manual to Pedal Piston Couplers, if there) be affected by the General Cancel? FF No - but by any adjustables if necessary. AJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 No - but by any adjustables if necessary. AJJ Fair question. I think it's kinder to a regular organist if the Great to Pedal Piston coupler is left unaffected by the General Cancel, though one meets all kinds of arrangements as one goes around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Morley Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 ....though one meets all kinds of arrangements as one goes around. ...such as Chester Cathedral's present arrangement, whereby Gt & Ped Combs is controlled by a reversible piston with indicator light, and the drawstops marked 'Gt & Ped Combs' actually controls the Gt 16' Diapason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drd Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Should be on adjustables if equipped with them. Otherwise personal preference would be for it to be cancelled by a general cancel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I prefer it to be unaffected by any pistons, including the general cancel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Psalm 78 v.67 Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 On every organ that I have played that has one, it is always "on" permenantly - I played for a huge funeraltoday in the next town, and the dust on the stop shank there bespoke its having been out for a long time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidb Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Ours stays either on or off all the time. I can't think that i've ever used it though, can't think of a more annoying thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Where I play there is a Ped on Great Combs and a Great on Ped Combs, neither of which is affected by the General Cancel. AFAIK they cannot be programmed into General or Divisional pistons. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 I prefer it to be unaffected by any pistons, including the general cancel. I agree. Both my Great and Pedal Combinations Coupled and Generals on Swell Toe Pedals are unaffected by any pistons, including General Cancel. I have never wished for them to be available on general pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 Ours stays either on or off all the time. I can't think that i've ever used it though, can't think of a more annoying thing. You're (of course) entitled to your opinion, but I find this answer surprising. Apart from the Great to Pedal reversible - or a complete Generals system with stepper - I can't think of any gadget more useful. Do you play Litanies? ...thinks...do you have a General Crescendo Pedal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Carr Posted March 17, 2007 Share Posted March 17, 2007 The Great and Pedal Pistons coupled and Generals on Swell toe pistons on St Paul's (Birmingham) are two back-lit push buttons under the music desk. They generally stay on all of the time and aren't linked to Gen can. It always provides a momentary puzzled look while the pedal line disappears but the Great remains FF (or visa versa!) - when someone has turned either off. At Wordsley, where I regularly play recitals every single piston on the organ can be reversible, general or divisional. It's a complete nightmare for visiting organists, but incredibly useful otherwise. For instance at the moment the sw to ped piston is a reversible for the Oboe and Positive 6 brings on the Tromba cancelling other positive stops in the usual way, but also cancels positive to pedal and positive to great, if they're out, to give a solo tromba set up at the push of a button. The pedal pistons are set as a huge crecendo for the whole organ, very useful. It also means for recital work you can set the piston nearest to your free finger at any particular moment! On this organ there's obviously no use for the Great and Pedal Pistons coupled and Generals on Swell toe pistons stop. I've only seen this system on one other organ - that did have the two piston coupling stops. Couldn't work out why! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coram Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 At Wordsley, where I regularly play recitals every single piston on the organ can be reversible, general or divisional. It's a complete nightmare for visiting organists, but incredibly useful otherwise. For instance at the moment the sw to ped piston is a reversible for the Oboe and Positive 6 brings on the Tromba cancelling other positive stops in the usual way, but also cancels positive to pedal and positive to great, if they're out, to give a solo tromba set up at the push of a button. The pedal pistons are set as a huge crecendo for the whole organ, very useful. It also means for recital work you can set the piston nearest to your free finger at any particular moment!On this organ there's obviously no use for the Great and Pedal Pistons coupled and Generals on Swell toe pistons stop. I've only seen this system on one other organ - that did have the two piston coupling stops. Couldn't work out why! I've always been a huge fan of the Scope arrangement - if you know what you're doing, it can be immensely versatile. Your Tromba button is a perfect example. If you don't know what you're doing, don't care, or you have visiting organists, you can just have a few channels set up in the traditional way and nobody would be any the wiser. I think this scenario is when the GP Pistons and Gen on Sw Toes would come in handy - it's what people expect to see. It can be a good idea to have the Scope button moved out of the way (or, better still, protected with a key switch) to prevent accidental damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I've always been a huge fan of the Scope arrangement - if you know what you're doing, it can be immensely versatile. Your Tromba button is a perfect example. If you don't know what you're doing, don't care, or you have visiting organists, you can just have a few channels set up in the traditional way and nobody would be any the wiser. I think this scenario is when the GP Pistons and Gen on Sw Toes would come in handy - it's what people expect to see. It can be a good idea to have the Scope button moved out of the way (or, better still, protected with a key switch) to prevent accidental damage. I have not! There is the added problem of having to remember how the instrument has been set-up. Piston-heads engraved with one legend actually performing a completely different function could give rise to confusion for the incumbent musicians - never mind visitors. I have long thought this to be a crazy system. St. Peter's, Bournemouth had it fitted a few years ago, although it was never a problem to handle the instrument previously. Now, apart from the fact that there are considerably less channels, one is always worried about being surprised by the 32p Bombardon on Swell piston one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coram Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I have not! There is the added problem of having to remember how the instrument has been set-up. Piston-heads engraved with one legend actually performing a completely different function could give rise to confusion for the incumbent musicians - never mind visitors. I have long thought this to be a crazy system. St. Peter's, Bournemouth had it fitted a few years ago, although it was never a problem to handle the instrument previously. Now, apart from the fact that there are considerably less channels, one is always worried about being surprised by the 32p Bombardon on Swell piston one.... Only an idiot would set a system up like that. The purpose is to provide occasional flexibility and, as such, it works well. Also, settings made are channel-specific so you can have "general crescendo" channels which behave normally and then, as Paul Carr suggests, have your personal favourite things (like the Tromba and cancelling all couplers - I ruined Cwm Rhondda last week by adding the Tuba not realising Ch-Gt was out - it never usually is!) available on your personal channel. It shouldn't upset anyone. I think you'll find an awful lot more instruments than St Peter's Bournemouth have the system - they don't all necessarily have the Scope button visible though. Most of AJ&L Taylor's output up to quite recently was based on this system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Only an idiot would set a system up like that. The purpose is to provide occasional flexibility and, as such, it works well. Also, settings made are channel-specific so you can have "general crescendo" channels which behave normally and then, as Paul Carr suggests, have your personal favourite things (like the Tromba and cancelling all couplers - I ruined Cwm Rhondda last week by adding the Tuba not realising Ch-Gt was out - it never usually is!) available on your personal channel. It shouldn't upset anyone. I think you'll find an awful lot more instruments than St Peter's Bournemouth have the system - they don't all necessarily have the Scope button visible though. Most of AJ&L Taylor's output up to quite recently was based on this system. David - two points. 1) Idiots occasionaly play organs. and 2) I told you to melt down that stupid Tuba.... This may be well and good - but when we actually get the Minster organ rebuilt, I am NOT having the Scope system - or a sequencer. I am also having the number of pistons reduced from those which are presently there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coram Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 This may be well and good - but when we actually get the Minster organ rebuilt, I am NOT having the Scope system - or a sequencer. I am also having the number of pistons reduced from those which are presently there. A sequencer I can understand - the Scope system is no longer available, but you'll find just about every system on the market has the ability to work like that, whether it's visible to the world or not. Romsey, for instance, and Christchurch Priory for another; hook up a laptop to the main computer and you can make any piston do anything you want it to do. Reducing pistons? Silly???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbouffant Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Personally, I would like to build an experimental console where the traditional stop jambs had been replaced with vertical touch screens. This way you could have any number of virtual stop heads available (obviously mapping to the physical stops) to suit the ergonomic preferences of the player. You could also have virtual pistons as well and all the rest... Add a wireless keyboard and a satellite feed and you could easily surf the internet on one screen whilst keeping track of the latest World Cup cricket game on the other -- all during the sermon! In addition, what struck me as particularly flexible would be a capture system which could "remember" a passage of music in the run up to a piston change and then automatically deploy the change when it detected the correct pattern from the player. Obviously people's playing would change subtly from one performance of the same passage to the next and a nice dose of fuzzy logic would be required in the processing of the input. Could be a nice doctoral project for someone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 A sequencer I can understand - the Scope system is no longer available, but you'll find just about every system on the market has the ability to work like that, whether it's visible to the world or not. Romsey, for instance, and Christchurch Priory for another; hook up a laptop to the main computer and you can make any piston do anything you want it to do. David - this I know! But I still would not want this system. There is, for me, the aesthetic point that I dislike to see blank piston-heads. However, I also want them to do what the engraving denotes - not some weird dehydrated Schnitger, to quote the late Gordon Reynolds. Reducing pistons? Silly???? Not at all. I hardly ever use the reversibles for Positive to Pedal, Positive to Great or Swell to Great. Neither do I use more than three or four of the divisional pistons to the Positive Organ. Six will be quite adequate, particularly with eight generals. I simply do not like any part of the console to be cluttered-up with accessories which are rarely, if ever, used. In case you are going to make a point about the wishes of visiting organists, we have comparatively few - and the one regular deputy I teach on the instrument. If we are to be honest here, how many of us design instruments for other organists to play? Would you have the Romsey Tuba removed because I do not like it (and do not use it), even though I only play this instrument once or twice a term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Personally, I would like to build an experimental console where the traditional stop jambs had been replaced with vertical touch screens. This way you could have any number of virtual stop heads available (obviously mapping to the physical stops) to suit the ergonomic preferences of the player. You could also have virtual pistons as well and all the rest... Add a wireless keyboard and a satellite feed and you could easily surf the internet on one screen whilst keeping track of the latest World Cup cricket game on the other -- all during the sermon! In addition, what struck me as particularly flexible would be a capture system which could "remember" a passage of music in the run up to a piston change and then automatically deploy the change when it detected the correct pattern from the player. Obviously people's playing would change subtly from one performance of the same passage to the next and a nice dose of fuzzy logic would be required in the processing of the input. Could be a nice doctoral project for someone.... Hmmm - visually and aesthetically.... BLEAH! Give me beautifully-crafted draw-stops on ebonised angled panels any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbouffant Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Hmmm - visually and aesthetically.... BLEAH! Give me beautifully-crafted draw-stops on ebonised angled panels any day. You're not thinking out of the box enough. Think of the background wallpaper you could choose for each screen, let alone the screensavers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coram Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 David - this I know! But I still would not want this system. There is, for me, the aesthetic point that I dislike to see blank piston-heads. However, I also want them to do what the engraving denotes - not some weird dehydrated Schnitger, to quote the late Gordon Reynolds. Not at all. I hardly ever use the reversibles for Positive to Pedal, Positive to Great or Swell to Great. Neither do I use more than three or four of the divisional pistons to the Positive Organ. Six will be quite adequate, particularly with eight generals. I simply do not like any part of the console to be cluttered-up with accessories which are rarely, if ever, used. In case you are going to make a point about the wishes of visiting organists, we have comparatively few - and the one regular deputy I teach on the instrument. If we are to be honest here, how many of us design instruments for other organists to play? Would you have the Romsey Tuba removed because I do not like it (and do not use it), even though I only play this instrument once or twice a term? Interesting points. Why blank piston heads? I think you'd struggle to find a system which didn't have this capability built into it, however well hidden. Yes, you have a lot of reversibles. I'd forgotten that. Isn't it nice to have the symmetry of 8 on each though? Looks good. (And if you get your Gt and Positive Manual Exchange, what then? Presumably the pistons will go with it?) Marlborough College had brilliant stepper controls - not seen anything like them before - as well as + and - pistons at the top of each stop jamb (for the page turner to use) the forward and reverse buttons on the key slip were set in (flush with key slip) the shape of a space bar on the computer - long and thin - easy to grab deliberately without looking, and very very hard to press unintentionally. Apart from the typeface (which I found amazingly hard to read) and some details of the layout, this was one of the most ergonomic consoles I have seen in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 You're not thinking out of the box enough. Think of the background wallpaper you could choose for each screen, let alone the screensavers! On the contrary - I am thinking of elegance and comfort - I HATE gimmick-ridden consoles. I have no wish to play anything which looked as though it were designed by Microsoft employees.... If a console is not beautiful and sumptuous, then I probably will not like it. Of course, it does not have to be a large console. Some small organs have some beautifully-designed consoles, with simple lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lee Blick Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Personally, I would like to build an experimental console where the traditional stop jambs had been replaced with vertical touch screens. This way you could have any number of virtual stop heads available (obviously mapping to the physical stops) to suit the ergonomic preferences of the player. You could also have virtual pistons as well and all the rest... Add a wireless keyboard and a satellite feed and you could easily surf the internet on one screen whilst keeping track of the latest World Cup cricket game on the other -- all during the sermon! In addition, what struck me as particularly flexible would be a capture system which could "remember" a passage of music in the run up to a piston change and then automatically deploy the change when it detected the correct pattern from the player. Obviously people's playing would change subtly from one performance of the same passage to the next and a nice dose of fuzzy logic would be required in the processing of the input. Could be a nice doctoral project for someone.... Not sure I would want touch screens (Wasn't there an organ in Oxford with such an arrangement) but tiny screens on the stop heads or stop tabs might be useful. Imagine pcnd being able to change the stop name of his hated "Tubas" to "Fart Horn" or "Crap" or even "Vicar". As a fundraising idea, you could get the little LED lights saying, "Double Ophicliede, sponsored by Tescos". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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