Unusual Registrations

[JWAnderson]

On our FW Hautboy & Vox = Cromorne. To get Orch Oboe I use Sw Hautboy & Ch Viol De Gamba

 

I suppose it is probably different on every organ, just depends on the voicing probably. But like I said, I've never tried to make the Orchestral Oboe.

[Guest Cynic]

I suppose it is probably different on every organ, just depends on the voicing probably. But like I said, I've never tried to make the Orchestral Oboe.

 

How about Oboe plus both Gamba and Celeste? This can make a very piquant/plaintive solo somewhat along the lines of an Accordeon. A normal Clarinet can be a little dull on its own, and I often draw an 8' flute to 'round it out' or a 4' flute to perk it up. I like massed 8' flutes too.... in a job where the divisions are not quite in tune with each other this can be a particularly voluptuous sound. I've droned on here before about the unfortunate lack of Flute Clestes in this country, but flutes from divisions placed at different heights from the floor can have a very similar effect. Surprisingly, a finer celeste effect can often be obtained from ranks really widely spread than from the intended pair in the same box; a choir Gemshorn, Salicional or Dulciana can sound very good with a Celeste in the Swell.

 

Philosophical Tangent:

Of course, some famous names of the past (self-appointed experts!) have written how celeste effects are debased and alien to The True Organ - I strongly disagree. In the days of organ-builders visiting less than once a year and churches without heat, the great baroque organs would rarely have been much like 'in tune' as we understand it but both resonance and richness of effect are enhanced by a slight variety of pitches. Imagine the mixtures at Weingarten five or more years after the tuner had left! Celestes also have a long history - one thinks in particular of the Voce Umana or Piffaro in Italy or South Germany, both of them long before Cavaille-Coll had created his wondrful strings.

 

In my CD collection, I have a recording made by Roger Fisher on the organ of St.John's, Ranmoor, Sheffield soon after the instrument had been rebuilt and enlarged by David Wells. As is well known, both Roger Fisher and David Wells have very high standards and a great deal of effort had obviously gone into ensuring that the whole instrument was 100% in tune. Unfortunately, to my ears the instrument sounds quite unreal as a result - for all the world like a state-of-the-art electronic. I find it very unsatisfying to listen to. When I actually visited the organ to give a recital myself, I was most relieved to find a much more musical and natural sound. It's a fine (and perfectly normal) job.

 

A hyper-strict insistence on everything being spot in tune would suggest that a better result could be obtained by firing 7 First Violins and giving the Leader of the Orchestra an amplifier. And choirs - who needs them?! All you need for the finest choir (following this rule) would be four singers, each with a microphone.

[heva]

A nice combination on my organ 'upstairs' is for Messiaen's Les Bergers; I don't have an hautbois nor a clarinette on the swell (Maarschalkerweerd's voicing is ok, design is crap), but using the viola8'+piccolo2' does work, as does viola8'+fluteharm.4'+nasard3'.

 

Also I agree whith cynic about combining flutes (Cochereau effect?), on my Hill it works nice - play a Buxtehude choral with the cf on the coupled flutes sound very 'wealthy'. Oh, and the Hill hasn't been tuned for more than a year and is always in tune between 10 and 26 degrees Celsius - I love it ...

[Guest Nigel ALLCOAT]

Imagine the mixtures at Weingarten five or more years after the tuner had left! - says Paul as he rose with the dawn chorus this morning. I realize in the UK we seem to have organ tuners coming by as often as piano tuners in some establishments. However, it was a revelation to hear Dr Richard Marlow from Trinity College Cambridge (when on the fact-finding mission in France on behalf of St John's College, Oxford as he was on the committee for that new instrument) relate to everyone that his Metzler had been tuned only twice in its life - (Reeds excepted). Such was the excellence of Metzler from those times. Central heating, or sudden fluctuations of heating I suggest cause much of the grief. The instrument in my village in France has no heating and in the winter the organ was so in tune you could cut Jambon with the brilliance of the Plein jeu. Keeping the reeds together, one experienced the same effect and could cut Boeuf. I provided the mustard.

 

All the best,

Nigel

[David Coram]

Imagine the mixtures at Weingarten five or more years after the tuner had left! - says Paul as he rose with the dawn chorus this morning. I realize in the UK we seem to have organ tuners coming by as often as piano tuners in some establishments. However, it was a revelation to hear Dr Richard Marlow from Trinity College Cambridge (when on the fact-finding mission in France on behalf of St John's College, Oxford as he was on the committee for that new instrument) relate to everyone that his Metzler had been tuned only twice in its life - (Reeds excepted). Such was the excellence of Metzler from those times. Central heating, or sudden fluctuations of heating I suggest cause much of the grief. The instrument in my village in France has no heating and in the winter the organ was so in tune you could cut Jambon with the brilliance of the Plein jeu. Keeping the reeds together, one experienced the same effect and could cut Boeuf. I provided the mustard.

 

All the best,

Nigel

 

Not just Metzler but any good cone tuned organ with solidly-made soundboards. I know of several (and work with several more) organs where the reeds are done twice a year, sometimes by the organist, and nothing else ever requires attention.

[Guest Nigel ALLCOAT]

Not just Metzler but any good cone tuned organ with solidly-made soundboards. I know of several (and work with several more) organs where the reeds are done twice a year, sometimes by the organist, and nothing else ever requires attention.

 

Spot on. The necessity for an organist to correct the more wild discrepancies in reed intonation now and again is surely part of the job - just as a car driver does not necessarily need to be a car mechanic to check oil, water and tyres. Some tuition and deeper understanding needs to be sought and given to organists I think. It certainly would help me as a teacher of it if the player actually understood the instrument - just as I do with pianists, as that is so much more accessible. I would suggest that most teachers must spend much time on this - especially singers, brass, strings and woodwind. If you don't know how the sound is produced how are you able to control it? I am of the opinion that we need a few basic seminars to offer this service. As a Diocesan Organ Adviser I am thinking that this should be part of my job in arranging and providing such simple sessions. (But, like most things - I might be wrong.)

 

Whilst playing for a wedding last Saturday in a fashionable London church on a most dreary extension Walker from 1964 (or thereabouts) I noticed that it was tuned at least twice a year. For pages in the Tuning Book, the tuner just put in the temperature of the church and a hint of humidity on some occasions. There were no observations from the organists. Electric action - so no adjusting of tracker action. No reeds, just flues. I wonder how much over the years they have paid for these bi-yearly tunes? Considering that the church is surrounded by such exclusive housing (the occupants of one street alone could easily purchase an African country), I feel that they are being rather too generous to their instrument.

 

Sorry to have gone sour so early in the day.

 

Nigel

[David Coram]

Spot on. The necessity for an organist to correct the more wild discrepancies in reed intonation now and again is surely part of the job - just as a car driver does not necessarily need to be a car mechanic to check oil, water and tyres. Some tuition and deeper understanding needs to be sought and given to organists I think. It certainly would help me as a teacher of it if the player actually understood the instrument - just as I do with pianists, as that is so much more accessible. I would suggest that most teachers must spend much time on this - especially singers, brass, strings and woodwind. If you don't know how the sound is produced how are you able to control it? I am of the opinion that we need a few basic seminars to offer this service. As a Diocesan Organ Adviser I am thinking that this should be part of my job in arranging and providing such simple sessions. (But, like most things - I might be wrong.)

 

I think this is absolutely right, and my original interest in organ building was sparked by an enlightened organ builder who felt, just as you do, that it was important to understand what goes on in there and be able to do something about it.

 

There were many on a recent trip to France who had gone 30-40-50 years of playing without having seen a slider, or a reed pipe. At the risk of being shot down, I find that many of the "organ tuned, blower oiled, please heat the church next time" brigade know they're on to a good thing and consequently treat organ tuning as a black art, where all but themselves must be banished from the innards because they do not have The Knowledge. Where one must be careful in arranging seminars etc is in just this - particularly as a Diocesan Organ Advisor, you may run the risk of appearing to be trying to relieve local organ tuners of work (or favouring one in particular), which will sooner or later result in a complaint to the chancellor. A better way of doing it might be a short DVD - I have mentioned this to a colleague, and I'm sure that Aubertin would be interested in doing something too - an international collaboration, perhaps?

 

I got shot - slowly, with a blunt bullet - by Ian Bell on Orgue-l a little while back for suggesting that the UK still has a large number of tuners who just do what they were taught and haven't stopped to think for themselves if there could be a better way. Around here we have three or four "names" who go round doing exactly what you have said in their twighlight years, administering totally unnecessary attention presumably to supplement a pension. My guess (or at least hope) is that subsequent generations will do things differently, because they are being taught differently.

[Guest Hector5]

Is it the case that some of the problems with tuning organs is simply down to the sheer frequency some companies WANT to tune organs? Some insist on going through from stem to stern to earn their money. Others are a little more circumspect, in that they visit the church maybe 1 1/2 times a year (or even only when the church requires) and only do what is necessary. Our German 5 stop house organ has been bounced across Europe in widely differing temperatures, put in cold, damp, or even baking churches, and is still bang in tune. It has cone tuning and cleverly fixed pipes - and is, needless to say, extremely well-made. My organ at church is the same - cared for by a splendid pair of chaps, who only come when we need them. The organ has gone from last October until a few weeks ago without a tuning and remains in good regulation.

 

I recently met Bernhardt Edskes (ex. Metzler) who kindly took me to play the Schnitger at Uithuizen and the Martinkerk at Groningen. Neither instrument was to my own personal tastes - but each BANG in tune, and apparently rarely requiring tuning. In fact Bernhardt Edskes gently knocked the reeds at Uithuizen into shape while I was there - the first time in about 18 months. This appeared to be a gesture of professional pride than out of necessity.

 

I wonder how many organists go into a complete panic when a note on the Swell Trumpet seems to be a shade out with the Great, and makes a panic call to the organ builder or goes clambering into the organ chamber. How many have actually waited to see if the organ will right itself and just been a tad more patient. It's suprising just how forgiving some organs are, especially if your leave them alone.

 

Hector

[Guest Nigel ALLCOAT]

Where one must be careful in arranging seminars etc is in just this - particularly as a Diocesan Organ Advisor, you may run the risk of appearing to be trying to relieve local organ tuners of work (or favouring one in particular), which will sooner or later result in a complaint to the chancellor.

 

Oops! I am not trying to suggest that everyone darts into the organ - I am suggesting that to make better knowledgeable players we should provide people with the opportunities to know their instrument. But should some gross mis-fortune befall one pipe before a certain important service or concert, I think that that is a possible time when a musical 999 is not required. Taking away livelihood was not the object of my post, but I easily can see how it could have been so interpreted as David was supping another cup of morning Café brought back in his valise from France.

 

Best wishes,

Nogel

[David Coram]

Oops! I am not trying to suggest that everyone darts into the organ - I am suggesting that to make better knowledgeable players we should provide people with the opportunities to know their instrument. But should some gross mis-fortune befall one pipe before a certain important service or concert, I think that that is a possible time when a musical 999 is not required. Taking away livelihood was not the object of my post, but I easily can see how it could have been so interpreted as David was supping another cup of morning Café brought back in his valise from France.

 

Best wishes,

Nogel

 

Yes, I know what you meant. What I meant was that, even if you are seen to be theoretically demonstrating how to tune a reed pipe, someone somewhere will decide you're undermining the organbuilder and get upset.

 

I think Mark Venning used to do half-day "organbuilding for organists" things - possibly still does?

[Vox Humana]

Our German 5 stop house organ has been bounced across Europe in widely differing temperatures, put in cold, damp, or even baking churches, and is still bang in tune.

The two Early English Organ Project instruments have been hawked around the country for the last five years, being dissasembled and reassembled with each journey. They have not been tuned since they left Goetze and Gwynn's workshop, yet are still completely in tune.

[pcnd5584]

... When I actually visited the organ to give a recital myself, I was most relieved to find a much more musical and natural sound. It's a fine (and perfectly normal) job.

 

A hyper-strict insistence on everything being spot in tune would suggest that a better result could be obtained by firing 7 First Violins and giving the Leader of the Orchestra an amplifier. And choirs - who needs them?! All you need for the finest choir (following this rule) would be four singers, each with a microphone.

 

In which case, you would like the Minster organ - to the best of my knowledge, it has never been in a state of just intonation.

 

I agree regarding flute undulants - these can be very effective. My own Swell Stopped Diapason is very slightly 'out' with the GO Rohr Flute [sic] and the result is a beautiful sound.

[Guest Cynic]

In which case, you would like the Minster organ - to the best of my knowledge, it has never been in a state of just intonation.

 

I agree regarding flute undulants - these can be very effective. My own Swell Stopped Diapason is very slightly 'out' with the GO Rohr Flute [sic] and the result is a beautiful sound.

 

 

I apologise for being such a sloppy musician, suggesting (above) that I like my organs out of tune. This is not exactly what I meant. Which was...... even including all these rare and wonderful instruments mentioned above by Nigel, David etc. no organ is ever completely in tune - there are always beats. Even if every octave and mutation is perfectly 'in' - play any chord on equal temperament and a degree out-of-tuness will appear. The point is, these little divergencies are part of the whole experience - in the case of historic organs, it is a substantial part of the fun.

 

I strongly agree with anyone who suggests that organ fluework can be fine tuned and then left alone - I have advocated this myself elsewhere. For me, scroll tuning, pinched pipes or (sh...!) rusty tuning slides are best. These do not de-tune themselves.

 

There are tuners out there who know their business but there are also others. I heard only last night of someone who tunes Tierces by asking his key-holder to play the E scale on another manual to set the first octave. No names, no pack drill....! From time to time one also meets Celeste ranks that have been clearly tuned in octaves. Not the same at all!

[pcnd5584]

I apologise for being such a sloppy musician, suggesting (above) that I like my organs out of tune. This is not exactly what I meant.

 

Do not worry, Paul - I know what you meant - and I agree with you. However, it would be nice to be able to sort out the winding problems on the Minster organ and have it even more in tune.

[pcnd5584]

Not just Metzler but any good cone tuned organ with solidly-made soundboards. I know of several (and work with several more) organs where the reeds are done twice a year, sometimes by the organist, and nothing else ever requires attention.

 

These organists are indeed fortunate. Are cone-tuned pipes more stable than slide-tuned ranks?

 

To cite just two examples of flue ranks which cannot be left to their own devices: my instrument has a beautiful 4p flute on the Swell Organ. However, it is quite old and the stoppers slip frequently because they need re-packing with new leather. Obviously this affects the tuning. Whilst this is a fault which will be addressed at the time of the rebuild, nevertheless it is one example of an instrument clearly needing regular tuning in a flue rank.

 

One further example: the tuning of the mixtures on the same instrument does slip - particularly that of the bass octave of the Positive Cymbal. The slip is both random and lacking in uniformity. However, when this rank is tolerably in tune, the effect of it capping the three choruses is so stunning that I happily forgive its imperfections. In the case of this latter stop, I do not think that this is simply a matter of inadequate or unstable winding.

[David Coram]

These organists are indeed fortunate. Are cone-tuned pipes more stable than slide-tuned ranks?

 

 

Inevitably, surely - there are no moving parts in a cone-tuned pipe.

[pcnd5584]

Inevitably, surely - there are no moving parts in a cone-tuned pipe.

 

Obviously - although the metal will still expand and contract with fluctuations in temperature. If the tuning slides are tightly sprung (or, as Paul states, rusty) then there is surely going to be negligible movement.

[Frank Fowler]

Obviously - although the metal will still expand and contract with fluctuations in temperature. If the tuning slides are tightly sprung (or, as Paul states, rusty) then there is surely going to be negligible movement.

 

The problem is not normally pipes themselves going out of tune but the construction of the soundboards being affected by humidity changes causing skrinkage or the reverse affecting the wind supply to the pipes.

 

A well slided metal pipe is pretty well as stable as a cone tune pipe under ideal conditions and far less damage is done in tuning it with a `reed knife' or similar than thumping it with a `cone tuner' if constant tuning, particularly in the trebles, is required (or insisted upon) when climatic conditions change.

 

FF

[contrabordun]

although the metal will still expand and contract with fluctuations in temperature

It's not the expansion of the metal - for a typical metal this is rather small over 25 degrees temp change - that makes the pitch change, but the change in the speed of sound in cold/hot air and the fact that this affects reeds and flues in different ways.

 

NERD ALERT

The speed of sound in air is proportional to the square root of the absolute (Kelvin) temperature of the air. In round numbers, the temperature inside a church will be 275K on cold winters day and 300K in summer, so the speed of sound in winter will be sqrt(275/300) x the speed in summer - about 0.95 x the speed.

 

So in winter, sound travels roughly 5% slower. I can sympathise with that, especially when it comes to getting out of bed on a cold winter morning.

 

The speed of a sound wave = frequency x wavelength, and it is frequency which the ear hears as the pitch of the note.

 

For a flue pipe, the wavelength is set by the length of the pipe, which is fixed. So, if the speed of sound drops 5% from summer to winter, so must the frequency, so A=440Hz becomes A=418, almost a whole semitone lower.

 

However, for a reed pipe, the frequency is fixed by tuning spring and doesn't change. The drop in speed of sound is compensated for by a drop in wavelength (the position of the antinode at the top of the resonator will move slightly). Hence the reeds stay true and the flues go flat in winter.

 

If the dominant effect were the contraction of the metal from summer to winter, then the pipes would be shorter - and the flues sharper - in winter. Also, the reeds and metal flues would stay in tune with each other and the wooden pipes would be out.

[David Coram]

That's the best I've seen it explained. Thank you.

[pcnd5584]

Absolutely. Very clear - and very helpful.

 

Thank you.