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deadsheepstew

Grant, Degens And Bradbeer...

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Thanks for the suggestion. I have since been in touch with New College and the very helpful Chapel Administrator tells me that the Assistant Organist is planning a couple of "big recitals" very soon, so I will keep an eye open and let you know. It should also be advertised on one of the NC websites.

 

Mark

 

Do let me know when they're happening, please.

 

This subject remains close to my heart. My organbuilding career started at GD&B in the late seventies and scarcely a month went by without a trip to New College. Besides tuning, we replaced the non-return valves on the pedal soundboard: they allowed the 16' reed to extend down to 32' via grooves in the upperboard.

 

Nowadays we might think twice about doing pedal extensions this way - I remember us having to remove half the pedal organ just to access the valves under the top upperboard veneer - but it was at least a valiant attempt at a very new trick.

 

Many things at New College were experiments. Some worked and some fell hideously flat. But more importantly, many still provoke discussion. To say that wasn't a good thing would be boring indeed.

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I've been keeping an eye on the various websites but have yet to see any mention of the recitals. Will keep watching!

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Guest Echo Gamba
I had also heard this - although in the version I was given, apparently they had fallen and shattered all over the Trompeta Real.

 

Hmmm....

 

:lol:

 

 

One man's Trompeta Real is another man's Chamade :lol: !

 

Seriously though, I have never heard NC live, and the only time I have heard the Trompeta Real on a recording was an LP of Evensong in David Lumsden's days (can't remember who the Organ Scholar was on the recording - possibly Jonathan Rees-Williams?) where it was used in Stanford in A Nunc (....of the people Israel..") I recall that it was just about audible over fairly full organ. Give me a good Tuba (or pcnd's Chamade) any day! ;)

 

And, it's probably been mentioned before, but I can't recall where or by whom, what was the rationale behind / use of, those unusual mutations?

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Guest Echo Gamba
The Trompeta "real" (royal) is not en chamade, it is the interior one.

What about "strange" mutation ranks ?

 

Pierre

 

Apologies - I and NPOR must be mistaken. Must learn to keep my big mouth shut! :lol:

 

The mutation I was thinking of was None 8/9 and there is a Teint mixture on the swell (at least, according to NPOR :lol: )

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Apologies - I and NPOR must be mistaken. Must learn to keep my big mouth shut! :lol:

 

The mutation I was thinking of was None 8/9 and there is a Teint mixture on the swell (at least, according to NPOR :lol: )

 

Hi

 

Interesting. I actually dealt with the last update on NPOR. I assmue the "horizontal" ref for the Trumpet came from the the source of the original survey - the person in question was usually pretty reliable. I would have to check the other sources ("Organs of Oxford" and the various articles in "The Organ") - I almost certainly looked at them when I did the last update, and would have at least added a note if there had been any queries.

 

Maybe you would let the NPOR office know if there is a genuine error.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

(NPOR Editor)

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Not you, Echo Gamba !

 

The true Trumpeta real, in Spain, was neither horizontal,

neither made in copper...

But it is quite possible the stop was named so in the 1960s.

 

The Neo-baroque organ is not meant at historic accuracy, it is a style

on its own.

The dissonant mutations are another proof of this. Not only there were

nones, etc, but they were often included in compound stops like Sesquialteras,

Terzians etc, so that those stops are automatically inaccurate in ancient music.

 

Pierre

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Guest Echo Gamba
The true Trumpeta real, in Spain, was neither horizontal,

neither made in copper...

But it is quite possible the stop was named so in the 1960s.

 

 

Pierre

 

and in 1955 :lol: (see Solo Organ)

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"I assume you are referring to the original, historical stops here. "

(Quote)

 

Absolutely. You will never find an horizontal Trumpet in Spain

with the name "Trompeta real".

 

Amusing, though, for a style which was presented as a "baroque" one!

 

Pierre

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Guest Echo Gamba
I assume you are referring to the original, historical stops here. The New College one definitely is en chamade. You can see it clearly, just below the Brustwerk: http://flickr.com/photos/paullew/407119228/sizes/l/

 

As always, it needs VH's perception to make clear the obvious to minds like mine :lol:

 

I thought Pierre was speaking directly with regard to New College - sincere apologies for my (? mild) sarcasm in my initial reply.

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"I assume you are referring to the original, historical stops here. "

(Quote)

 

Absolutely. You will never find an horizontal Trumpet in Spain

with the name "Trompeta real". ...

 

Pierre

 

As far as I know, there are two such ranks in the instrument in the cathedral at Santiago di Compostela. I played this organ for a Mass last year and used just about every stop at some point or other. There are several ranks mounted en chamade - and there are only three or four possible candidates (they are definitely speaking pipes; i.e. not simply dummy resonators) - two are named Trompeta Real, one on the Positivo and the other on the Gran Organo.

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As far as I know, there are two such ranks in the instrument in the cathedral at Santiago di Compostela. I played this organ for a Mass last year and used just about every stop at some point or other. There are several ranks mounted en chamade - and there are only three or four possible candidates (they are definitely speaking pipes; i.e. not simply dummy resonators) - two are named Trompeta Real, one on the Positivo and the other on the Gran Organo.

 

No doubt you well correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that in Iberian organs the 'Trompeta Real' was an internal rank, whilst the horizontal ranks in the facade were 'Trompeta Batalla' at 8ft pitch plus things like 'Clarin' at 4ft and 2ft pitch.

I've included a link to an example from Gehard Grenzing's website, the spec. of his restoration at Zaragoza Cathedral shows which are interior ranks and which are horizontal. The whole website is worth having a look at, but isn't up to date.

We heard a newly finished Grenzing restoration in May/June last year at Sant Francesca de Palma in Majorca, very impressive it sounded too.

 

DT

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No doubt you well correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that in Iberian organs the 'Trompeta Real' was an internal rank, whilst the horizontal ranks in the facade were 'Trompeta Batalla' at 8ft pitch plus things like 'Clarin' at 4ft and 2ft pitch.

I've included a link to an example from Gehard Grenzing's website, the spec. of his restoration at Zaragoza Cathedral shows which are interior ranks and which are horizontal. The whole website is worth having a look at, but isn't up to date.

We heard a newly finished Grenzing restoration in May/June last year at Sant Francesca de Palma in Majorca, very impressive it sounded too.

 

DT

 

The organ at Santiago di Compostela is perhaps an exception. There is no stop named Trompeta Batalla - and only one unenclosed clavier Clarin. As I wrote, there are several ranks disposed horizontally (all of which appear to work) and, if the two stops named Trompeta Real are not included, there are simply not enough trumpet stops on the console to account for the number of ranks en chamade.

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Besides the meaning as "Royal" Trumpet, there is another possible one.

Roland Eberlein in his new book "Orgelregistern, ihre Namen und Geschichte",

cites it, Like the dutch specialist with spanish organs Jan Jongepier did earlier.

"Real" would make reference to a full-lenght body -contrarily to the early

en chamade stops, for reasons that should have been clear to the neo-baroque

theoricians-.

 

There were also neo baroque horizontal "Trompeta real" in Germany, so that

the neo-post romantic organs should be allowed to display proud Tuba en chamade stops.

(Any takers ?)

 

Pierre

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Getting back to UK instruments; my first encounters with a 'Trompeta Real' type reed, and definitely the most striking organ sound I had heard as a 12/13 year old was the 1961 Walker at Ampleforth Abbey.

This vast instrument features a 'Trompetta Argentea' which is situated away from the main organ in a small gallery at the base of the large central dome (rather like siting the Trompette Millitaire in the whispering gallery at St. Paul's), although not a true chamade the reflective effect and superb acoustics of the spacious chapel give this stop tremendous impact. If I remember correctly it is of the spun brass type and was silver plated (hence the name).

 

This instrument (finished shortly after the influential rebuild at York Minster) was the first of 3 ground-breaking 60s instruments for major churches: Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral and Blackburn Cathedral. All feature chamades of varying resonator construction which sound quite different. Oh, not forgetting of course, Winbourne Minster.

 

Walkers also included chamades in a number of their 'house style' tracker instruments from the 70s onwards; City of London School comes to mind, I'm sure there were others.

 

Considering the size, quality and importance of the Ampleforth organ it is surprising how infrequently it has been recorded. Noted musician Philip Dore was the first organist and I think his son William now has some role there on the music staff.

 

DT

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Getting back to UK instruments; my first encounters with a 'Trompeta Real' type reed, and definitely the most striking organ sound I had heard as a 12/13 year old was the 1961 Walker at Ampleforth Abbey.

This vast instrument features a 'Trompetta Argentea' which is situated away from the main organ in a small gallery at the base of the large central dome (rather like siting the Trompette Millitaire in the whispering gallery at St. Paul's), although not a true chamade the reflective effect and superb acoustics of the spacious chapel give this stop tremendous impact. If I remember correctly it is of the spun brass type and was silver plated (hence the name).

 

This instrument (finished shortly after the influential rebuild at York Minster) was the first of 3 ground-breaking 60s instruments for major churches: Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral and Blackburn Cathedral. All feature chamades of varying resonator construction which sound quite different. Oh, not forgetting of course, Winbourne Minster.

 

Wimborne Minster (1965) being rebuilt before the construction of the Liverpool instrument (1967) or the rebuild at Blackburn (1969). Presumably therefore, the organ at Wimborne Minster was the first to break the ground, as it were.

 

Walkers also included chamades in a number of their 'house style' tracker instruments from the 70s onwards; City of London School comes to mind, I'm sure there were others.

 

There were indeed - Lancing College (west end organ), for one. However, as far as I know, Wimborne Minster and Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral were the only instances (by Walker, at least) of spun brass resonators, with belled ends - literally orchestral trumpets. The resonators for the Wimborne stop were reputedly supplied by Boosey & Hawkes.

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Guest Echo Gamba
Wimborne Minster (1965) being rebuilt before the construction of the Liverpool instrument (1967) or the rebuild at Blackburn (1969). Presumably therefore, the organ at Wimborne Minster was the first to break the ground, as it were.

 

 

 

There were indeed - Lancing College (west end organ), for one. However, as far as I know, Wimborne Minster and Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral were the only instances (by Walker, at least) of spun brass resonators, with belled ends - literally orchestral trumpets. The resonators for the Wimborne stop were reputedly supplied by Boosey & Hawkes.

 

I really should know this - but what exactly is "spun brass" ? Pardon my ignorance :unsure:

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Wimborne Minster (1965) being rebuilt before the construction of the Liverpool instrument (1967) or the rebuild at Blackburn (1969). Presumably therefore, the organ at Wimborne Minster was the first to break the ground, as it were.

Possibly not. Ostensibly earlier than Wimborne (and full compass :unsure: ) was the Trompette Royale on the Positive division that H&H added to Arthur Starke's organ at Monk's farm, Freshwater, IoW in 1962. It can be seen in one of the photos here: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=A00922 I'm now wondering, however, whether the NPOR date is correct. I am sure I was told (it would have been either by Arthur or by Duncan - I've forgotten his surname - from H&H) that it was modelled on the parpy little Chaire Organ Trompette at St George's, Windsor (1965). But maybe I've got completely mixed up again and it was the other way around.

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Possibly not. Ostensibly earlier than Wimborne (and full compass :unsure: ) was the Trompette Royale on the Positive division that H&H added to Arthur Starke's organ at Monk's farm, Freshwater, IoW in 1962. It can be seen in one of the photos here: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=A00922 I'm now wondering, however, whether the NPOR date is correct. I am sure I was told (it would have been either by Arthur or by Duncan - I've forgotten his surname - from H&H) that it was modelled on the parpy little Chaire Organ Trompette at St George's, Windsor (1965). But maybe I've got completely mixed up again and it was the other way around.

 

According to Laurence Elvin in his 'Harrison Story' pg. 211; the Monks Farm Positive was added 5 years after the the rest of the organ was set-up which would make it 1967.

 

DT

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Ah, thank you, David. That makes a lot of sense and it is all coming back to me vaguely. I used to play the organ quite a bit in the late 60s and now remember talk of the Positive being new. Sadly for me, I can't remember whether I ever played it as a two-manual - I think I may have done once. I am thinking there may be something misleading and incomplete with the dates on NPOR. Does Elvin's book say anything about the genesis of the instrument? I had always thought that the organ was built especially for Arthur, but perhaps it wasn't and the 1962 date refers to when the organ was installed at Monk's Farm.

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Possibly not. Ostensibly earlier than Wimborne (and full compass :unsure: ) was the Trompette Royale on the Positive division that H&H added to Arthur Starke's organ at Monk's farm, Freshwater, IoW in 1962. It can be seen in one of the photos here: http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=A00922 I'm now wondering, however, whether the NPOR date is correct. I am sure I was told (it would have been either by Arthur or by Duncan - I've forgotten his surname - from H&H) that it was modelled on the parpy little Chaire Organ Trompette at St George's, Windsor (1965). But maybe I've got completely mixed up again and it was the other way around.

 

Ah no - I was thinking of the three instruments to which David Thornton referred. With respect to your point above Vox, the Minster is in any case beaten by the organ in the chapel of Saint John's College, Cambridge - this chamade arrived in 1955.

 

And, yes - it irritates me that the lowest twelve notes are 'missing' - something which has been addressed in the planned work (if we ever get any money....)

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