Pedal Mutations And Mixtures

[john carter 0]

I have always described Pedal Mutations and Mixtures based on a 16' series i.e. a Twelfth is 5 1/3' and a 22, 26, 29 Mixture is 2', 1 1/3' and 1'. Am I correct in working this way? Someone has put a doubt in my mind by suggesting a Twelfth is 2 2/3' whether it is on manual or pedal. Which is correct?

 

JC

[contrabordun 0]

Dunno, about mutations but every pedal 15th I've ever seen has been marked 4', so I would tend to agree with you.

[JJK 0]

I have always described Pedal Mutations and Mixtures based on a 16' series i.e. a Twelfth is 5 1/3' and a 22, 26, 29 Mixture is 2', 1 1/3' and 1'. Am I correct in working this way? Someone has put a doubt in my mind by suggesting a Twelfth is 2 2/3' whether it is on manual or pedal. Which is correct?

 

JC

 

I'm with you on this. A pedal twelfth is 5 1/3, an octave is 4' and a superoctave is 2', etc etc

 

JJK

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

and a Quint?

[JJK 0]

and a Quint?

10 2/3 on pedal, 5 1/3 on manual

[Guest Cynic]

10 2/3 on pedal, 5 1/3 on manual

 

 

With you all the way.

[MusingMuso 0]

With you all the way.

 

 

====================

 

 

OK.....so what do you call a "21.2/3" register?

 

Ha! The system falls apart!

 

 

MM

[JJK 0]

====================

OK.....so what do you call a "21.2/3" register?

 

Ha! The system falls apart!

 

 

MM

Double quint? Is there one anywhere???

[Dulciana 0]

I'm with you on this. A pedal twelfth is 5 1/3, an octave is 4' and a superoctave is 2', etc etc

 

JJK

 

Would the octave not be 8 ft, etc?

[Guest Cynic]

====================

OK.....so what do you call a "21.2/3" register?

 

Ha! The system falls apart!

 

 

MM

 

 

Quint of 64'*

 

(well that's what I would call it). Ask me another.

Let's be honest, an organist or organ-builder can call a stop whatever he/she wants. That's part of the fun of designing unusual stops. I'm planning a 2.2/3 Pedal reed on my house organ (part of a plot to get the total number of pedal stops up to 40) - what would you call that? I'm considering Horn Nineteenth.

 

 

*As to where there is one, I would have thought that the Gravissima stops at Liverpool etc. will use this pitch, drawn from one of the 32' flue ranks. Mind you, it won't draw on its own. Didn't there used to be one using front pipes at Alkmaar? Just a vague memory - there I think it was called Quint 23'.

[JJK 0]

Would the octave not be 8 ft, etc?

 

You are right - I clearly didn't read what I wrote! 4' = superoctave or fifteenth, 2 = 22nd

 

JJK

 

*As to where there is one, I would have thought that the Gravissima stops at Liverpool etc. will use this pitch, drawn from one of the 32' flue ranks. Mind you, it won't draw on its own. Didn't there used to be one using front pipes at Alkmaar? Just a vague memory - there I think it was called Quint 23'.

 

With a derived stop, would it make any difference, at that pitch, that the tuning of the quint is not perfect? Would there be an advantage in having a separate rank tuned true, to balance the not inconsiderable expense? My guess is that a separate rank would improve the realism of the 64' effect - but I've never tried a 64' stop, real or otherwise.

JJK

[Guest Cynic]

You are right - I clearly didn't read what I wrote! 4' = superoctave or fifteenth, 2 = 22nd

 

JJK

With a derived stop, would it make any difference, at that pitch, that the tuning of the quint is not perfect? Would there be an advantage in having a separate rank tuned true, to balance the not inconsiderable expense? My guess is that a separate rank would improve the realism of the 64' effect - but I've never tried a 64' stop, real or otherwise.

JJK

 

Not an expert on these things but....

the further down in the compass, the less likely it is that a slightly non-perfect fifth will notice. One can see this from the way all fifths behave - taking middle octave on a Principal, the beat between C and G above may be slow, but it will be there. The same exact interval will beat twice as fast on the octave above (even if these octaves are all perfectly in tune). Because of this and the fact that flute pitches accomodate themselves a little - in effect pulling themselves into tune, in little extension organs, Nazards are fairly frequently taken off standard (single) flute ranks and they work well enough not to annoy most listeners. [A tierce from the same rank would be significantly more adrift from a true Tierce and thus these rarely blend well. A true fifth is slightly sharp (of the extended one) and a true Tierce is flatter.]

 

The cost of a genuine 21.2/3' stop (i.e. independent pipes) would be out of all propertion to its usefulness, so I doubt if this has ever been done. The one person who would know is Stephen D. Smith of organrecitals.com because of the throughness of his wonderful book on the creation of the Midmer-Losh seven manual at Atlantic City, USA.

 

I wonder if he reads these pages.

[kropf 0]

The cost of a genuine 21.2/3' stop (i.e. independent pipes) would be out of all propertion to its usefulness, so I doubt if this has ever been done.

 

Check the Klais Website for some of their recent large Concert Hall (and some church) Organs - they often have the Vox Balenae 64' (the whale's voice), which, at least in the bottom octave, is 32'+21.2/3', as far as I know. The latter rank is derived from the 32' - the gap between pure and tempered fifth can be ignored at such frequencies...

[Graham Powell 0]

Double quint? Is there one anywhere???

 

Yes there is - on the organ of the Royal Albert Hall, London. Liverpool Cathedral also used to have one, which was removed in 1977 - indicative of its usefulness, perhaps?

 

G

[headcase 0]

Let's be honest, an organist or organ-builder can call a stop whatever he/she wants. That's part of the fun of designing unusual stops. I'm planning a 2.2/3 Pedal reed on my house organ (part of a plot to get the total number of pedal stops up to 40) - what would you call that? I'm considering Horn Nineteenth. (Cynic)

 

Quintopean ? Naztrompette ?

 

H

 

Forgot to mention - Osmonds very occasionally included an independent 10 2/3 bottom octave of Bourdon pipes, which could then be tuned pure, but best of all, balanced correctly for power.

 

H

[JJK 0]

Yes there is - on the organ of the Royal Albert Hall, London. Liverpool Cathedral also used to have one, which was removed in 1977 - indicative of its usefulness, perhaps?

 

G

 

Thanks - that is interesting. Liverpool seems to have had one which was on a lighter pressure to all the 32' flues, suggesting it was an independent rank. I'd have expected the 64' resultant, which has always been there, to use this rank as the quint. However, the 21 1/3 is now gone, and the 64' still there! Maybe the 21 1/3 is really still there, with no separate knob???

 

JJK

[Vox Humana 0]

But presumably the 21 2/3 was a full compass stop, whereas the 64' only needs quinting in the bottom octave??

[John Robinson 0]

Check the Klais Website for some of their recent large Concert Hall (and some church) Organs - they often have the Vox Balenae 64' (the whale's voice), which, at least in the bottom octave, is 32'+21.2/3', as far as I know. The latter rank is derived from the 32' - the gap between pure and tempered fifth can be ignored at such frequencies...

 

I know this may sound silly, as my CD player is supposedly incapable of reproducing anything below 20Hz, but the Vox Balenae 64' (at least that is what I am assuming is making the ground shake) at Cologne Cathedral sounds very effective at the beginning of track 7 (Strauss) on Motette MOT13254.

 

Incidentally, Klais proposed adding a Donner 64' - a resultant reed - to Altenberg Cathedral. I'd be interested to hear whether this has actually been built and, if so, whether it works: I have never heard of a resultant reed before.

 

John

[JWAnderson 0]

====================

OK.....so what do you call a "21.2/3" register?

 

On the Atlantic City Midmer-Losh its called Sub Quint 21 1/3'

 

JA

[JWAnderson 0]

Incidentally, Klais proposed adding a Donner 64' - a resultant reed - to Altenberg Cathedral. I'd be interested to hear whether this has actually been built and, if so, whether it works: I have never heard of a resultant reed before.

 

I think that the Atlantic City Midmer-Losh has the 64' Dulzian extended and has quint stops at 42-2/3', 21-1/3' etc, so if you used the 64' & 42-2/3' you could probably get a resultant 128' stop. Its sort of a resultant reed!

 

JA

[John Sayer 0]

The oddest rank of this ilk I've come across is the Terz 12 4/5 at Schwerin Cathedral. It certainly adds some sort of 64ft subterranean rumble when drawn with full pedal. Apparently Ladegast included it after consultation with Prof. Töpfer, one of the leading 19c theorists in organ tone.

 

JS

[MusingMuso 0]

Didn't there used to be one using front pipes at Alkmaar? Just a vague memory - there I think it was called Quint 23'.

 

 

===========================

 

It's still there!

 

MM

[Guest Cynic]

===========================

 

It's still there!

 

MM

 

 

So it's not Alzheimers (yet) - what a relief!

Thanks MM,

P.

[heva 0]

Didn't there used to be one using front pipes at Alkmaar? Just a vague memory - there I think it was called Quint 23'.

 

AFAIK, That's Principaal 24', sounding a quint UNDER the 16 foot (resultant 64' - the first ever?)

[mgp 0]

AFAIK, That's Principaal 24', sounding a quint UNDER the 16 foot (resultant 64' - the first ever?)

I thought that just meant it only went down to FFFF (24')