Improvisation

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

Absolutely.

 

 

I am not particularly proud of this, but at the Friends' Evensong last Sunday afternoon, I played the procession out to an improvised fugato on I'm Popeye the Sailor-man. This was largely because my boss had already played Whitlock's Chanty (from the Plymouth Suite) after Sung Mass, and subsequently played a movement from Handel's Water Music after Choral Matins. He then turned to me and said "Now what's my assistant going to play after Choral Evensong, now that I have nicked all the best bits?" Since we had both had lunch at The Kings Head, and consumed a bottle of Merlot (14% by volume), followed by two double whiskies each in the White Hart, all I could think of was the above, which I rather glibly (and not entirely seriously) announced. My boss responded with "Excellent! That is what I shall expect."

 

Oh joy, I thought.

 

So that is what they got.

 

How wonderful! At the funeral of a long-time parishioner and long serving churchwarden during Easter week, the family had asked for variations on 'On Ilkley Moor baht 'at' - which is what they got! all round.

[jonadkins]

How wonderful! At the funeral of a long-time parishioner and long serving churchwarden during Easter week, the family had asked for variations on 'On Ilkley Moor baht 'at' - which is what they got! all round.

 

And at christmas you can say it's variations on "While Shepherds watched" of course!

 

...

 

Most illuminating replies, thanks everyone. I guess there are no "short cuts"!

[flûte harmonique]

As this thread is about impro, here an example of the skills of the young French organist class:

Baptiste-Florian Marle-Ouvrard improvises a sortie on "vive le vent d'hiver" (jingle bells) in december 2004 on the 42 stops Abbey organ of "St Vincent de Paul de Clichy (near Paris). He has obtained 8 first prizes at the Conservatoire national de musique de Paris.

Pupill of Pincemaille for impro and Harmony and Latry for interpretation.

 

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=x778nGLc8pk

 

An other example: Pierre Pincemaille improvises a sort of "fileuse" in concert (sorry for the bad quality of the image and the sound!)

 

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=ES3Wo8DMcv8

[AJJ]

As this thread is about impro, here an example of the skills of the young French organist class:

Baptiste-Florian Marle-Ouvrard improvises a sortie on "vive le vent d'hiver" (jingle bells) in december 2004 on the 42 stops Abbey organ of "St Vincent de Paul de Clichy (near Paris). He has obtained 8 first prizes at the Conservatoire national de musique de Paris.

Pupill of Pincemaille for impro and Harmony and Latry for interpretation.

 

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=x778nGLc8pk

 

Wow - this man needs looking out for - 'neatly done also when the copy fell off - that would have been a major disater for me.

 

AJJ

[heva]

As this thread is about impro, here an example of the skills of the young French organist class:

Baptiste-Florian Marle-Ouvrard improvises a sortie on "vive le vent d'hiver" (jingle bells) in december 2004 on the 42 stops Abbey organ of "St Vincent de Paul de Clichy (near Paris). He has obtained 8 first prizes at the Conservatoire national de musique de Paris.

Pupill of Pincemaille for impro and Harmony and Latry for interpretation.

 

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=x778nGLc8pk

 

 

Though it's an achievement, imho it's another Cochereau imitation - listen to the first track of the 3-disc set ' L'organiste de Notre-Dame' and you'll find the original for this 'style'.

 

BTW. by the look on his face, does he enjoy playing?

[pcnd5584]

Though it's an achievement, imho it's another Cochereau imitation - listen to the first track of the 3-disc set ' L'organiste de Notre-Dame' and you'll find the original for this 'style'.

 

Are you sure? The first track on the three-disc set l'organiste de Nôtre-Dame is the Prelude and Fugue, in C major (BWV 547), by Bach. Or do you mean the third disc?

 

There are similarities with the general style and some of the figuration. However, harmonically, this improvisaton has more in common with those of Pierre Pincemaille.

[heva]

Are you sure? The first track on the three-disc set l'organiste de Nôtre-Dame is the Prelude and Fugue, in C major (BWV 547), by Bach. Or do you mean the third disc?

 

There are similarities with the general style and some of the figuration. However, harmonically, this improvisaton has more in common with those of Pierre Pincemaille.

Indeed ,I meant the 3rd disc of course.

[flûte harmonique]

Though it's an achievement, imho it's another Cochereau imitation - listen to the first track of the 3-disc set ' L'organiste de Notre-Dame' and you'll find the original for this 'style'.

 

BTW. by the look on his face, does he enjoy playing?

 

There is something to do with, in general, the French impro style : this is the reason why you may say "another Cochereau imitation".

I would say this is more in Pincemaille's approach since he was his pupill some years ago.

His style has now evolved in a more neo tonal style, thanks to it he got in june 2007 his last prize in impro.

Anyway Baptiste-Florian is able to improvise in any style you may wish: Widor, Vierne, Dupré,, Cochereau, Duruflé, Escaich....At the Conservatoire de Paris they are trained to do it effortless.

He comes to an age (25) when he has to find his own musical style. After all plenty of others musicians have musically accomplished themselves around this age!

Anyway, he is considered by Latry, Escaich and others as one of the best improvisers.

 

PS Baptiste loves to joke but when he plays, his face reflects his concentration

[AJJ]

What about this then.

 

AJJ

 

And something for pcnd too.

[flûte harmonique]

What about this then.

 

AJJ

 

And something for pcnd too.

 

IMHO, Latry and Lefebvre inaugurating Budapest organ gives evidence, a contrario, that the art of improvisation is something to be taken seriously....

Anyway Latry has never said he had the same skills at impro than his predecessor (recall me his name?)

[pcnd5584]

What about this then.

 

AJJ

 

And something for pcnd too.

 

Yum.

 

Thank you, Alastair.

 

God, I love that organ. Sometimes, it can sound almost like it did in 1970 - 80.

 

[pcnd5584]

Anyway Latry has never said he had the same skills at impro than his predecessor (recall me his name?)

 

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

 

Please tell me you are joking....

 

PIERRE COCHEREAU!!

 

[flûte harmonique]

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

 

Please tell me you are joking....

 

PIERRE COCHEREAU!!

 

Yes of course!!!!

I'm old enough to have had the chance to see him playing at his loft from 1968 to 1971.

If you are interested I can put a link to a private exhibition of the NDP organ in 2004 by Latry...but unfortunately I did not have any camera in 1968...

[David Coram]

I would agree. There are those who should do it in a recital, and those who shouldn't. Within the context of the liturgy, spontaneous improvisation to link one element of the worship to another is an art in itself. Those who can do it seamlessly and sensitively can really heighten the worship, in my opinion.

 

Hello all

 

I'm definitely in the "shouldn't" category, but I did last night anyway - a soft 6 minute thing on Linden Lea, given by someone in the audience - because I do a lot of it liturgically and several of the choir and congro asked me to. Ho hum. In ongoing lessons with David Briggs an emphasis has been not just on I, IV and V of each chord but also ninths and tritones which are useful vehicles for getting elsewhere or imitating certain styles, e.g. Durufle. Two piled-up tritones - e.g. C D F# G# - is an incredibly good way of getting to virtually any key in the world. A countdown timer is something I have found to be a very good way of setting discipline in place - pick a theme, set for 3 minutes, and then you know what time you have to be in the dominant by, and when you have to get to the end. This prohibits aimless meandering around.

 

An exercise I find incredibly useful and try and do each time I sit down at an organ or piano is one minute 'dance' variations - picking a theme, texture (2 or 3 parts usually), time signature and speed, playing for about 8 bars, then repeating on a contrasting or echo voice; then modulating and doing the same, then going back home and doing an elaborated A section with a logical ending.

 

I've banged on about it before, but the way of picking up instant keyboard harmony I found invaluable was at the age of 12 being permitted only a melody-only copy of the hymn book and being forced to work my own harmonies out, being given the hymn numbers later and later in the week as time went on until I was quite comfortable turning up on the Sunday morning and getting them off the board. It drives my current choir nuts though as I sometimes have a lot of trouble playing the printed harmonies...

 

Nice to be back.

[flûte harmonique]

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

 

Please tell me you are joking....

 

PIERRE COCHEREAU!!

 

 

Specially for you:

Latry explains one of the various way to get to the general tutti in NDP with a piece of Widor:

1. Tutti

2. Tutti +chamades(régales)

3. Tutti+ chamades(régales) + Chamades Cochereau (slightly modified in 92)

4. The same + all couplings 8 and 16

[Vox Humana]

Orgasmic!

[DouglasCorr]

Getting back to the original question - I think one needs plain speaking step by step books with lots of examples as a guide. Begining from level zero.

 

Kenneth Simpson: Keyboard Harmony And Improvisation (covers similar ground as Dorothy Pilling but with more examples).

 

Making Music: Improvisation for Organists

by Jan Overduin covers all the starting steps suggested in this thread.

 

Melody and Harmony by Stewart Macpherson (Book 2) provides complementary background on harmony.

[heva]

Specially for you:

Latry explains one of the various way to get to the general tutti in NDP with a piece of Vierne:

1. Tutti

2. Tutti +chamades(régales)

3. Tutti+ chamades(régales) + Chamades Cochereau (slightly modified in 92)

4. The same + all couplings 8 and 16

 

Hmm, isn't that Widor's final of symf.VI (btw. the Latry recording on BNL is actually very nice).

 

There's something that intrigues me: today, young organists improvise in an x, y or z historical style. I don't recall pupils from the Dupré class doing so; indeed they studied 'historic' material hard (look i.e. at Messiaen harmonic treatise), but as far as I know they didn't do that in concert (and look at the different styles/personalities that grew there).

 

So how come it's considered of artistic merit these days. Personally, I don't consider it like that; too me it's an academic 'trick', a very profound (or maybe a 'real') understanding, yes, but is the ability to copy a Rembrandt or a VanGogh unmistakeble of similar value as the original masterpiece (well, if you succeed and sell, it brings more cash than any organplaying).

 

 

But since I can't compete on this level (did study harmony etc. though), I know my limitations

[AJJ]

Hmm, isn't that Widor's final of symf.VI (btw. the Latry recording on BNL is actually very nice).

 

There's something that intrigues me: today, young organists improvise in an x, y or z historical style. I don't recall pupils from the Dupré class doing so; indeed they studied 'historic' material hard (look i.e. at Messiaen harmonic treatise), but as far as I know they didn't do that in concert (and look at the different styles/personalities that grew there).

 

So how come it's considered of artistic merit these days. Personally, I don't consider it like that; too me it's an academic 'trick', a very profound (or maybe a 'real') understanding, yes, but is the ability to copy a Rembrandt or a VanGogh unmistakeble of similar value as the original masterpiece (well, if you succeed and sell, it brings more cash than any organplaying).

But since I can't compete on this level (did study harmony etc. though), I know my limitations

 

This is interesting because the only recording I have heard ('can't remember where) of Dupre improvising was very 'academic' in style and nothing like his written out compositions.

 

AJJ

[Justadad]

I hope you won't mind an observation from an outsider.

 

I watched this clip and found it ugly. I also watched the Pincemaille (sp?) and Hakim clips posted by the same person.

 

It all seems to be like an exercise in playing as many notes as possible, as loudly as possible, as quickly as possible. There's no beauty in it.

 

I imagine the cognoscenti will be able to point to fantastically clever moments in all these clips and I readily accept I may be far too close to the floor of the aesthetic pyramid to appreciate what I'm hearing, but it's just an ugly noise. Great techinique, no doubt, but where's the music?

 

I know not all improvisation is like this and have heard wonderful, musical improvisations by Thomas Trotter and David Briggs, so I don't think that improvisation is all about technique and not about taste, but so many of these improvisations seem little more than peacock displays.

 

Any organist can convince me of their brilliant technique in 20 seconds. After that, I want to know if they are musicians too.

 

I'd much rather hear, I think, David's 6 soft minutes on Linden Lea.

 

But that's just a personal view from a non-organist.

 

J

 

 

Here's an interesting one:

[Dulciana]

Get Nigel Allcoat's improvisation CDs and listen to how he does it. Then buy his book on how one can attempt to do similar. He is on here sometimes so you can find his contact details 'in the system'. Then as heva says - do some as often as you can.

 

AJJ

 

Can anyone tell me where one could acquire a copy of said book?

[AJJ]

Can anyone tell me where one could acquire a copy of said book?

 

Maybe PM Nigel - his details are on here.

 

AJJ

[Guest Nigel ALLCOAT]

Maybe PM Nigel - his details are on here.

 

AJJ

 

Ha! How kind of you all to mention me and THE books. Alas, I am such an impossible person when it comes to keeping compositions, books, articles. Most are lost on stashed on a locked Hard Drive. I don't have a copy of Vol 1 - I it lent to somebody, but forget to whom. I have a Vol 2 somewhere. But, much within the little books can be found on the 2 CD's. There is additional material to be found in the comprehensive booklets that come with each. I recorded them in Denmark on a glorious Carsten Lund some years back (I took the Organ Club to the Church in Hjerting, remember?) after an eminent teacher in Amsterdam urged me to do so - as not everyone who was using the books (as was he), could offer examples in playing to students. Thus the recorders rolled and I spoke to some modern statues that substituted for the Class and off I went. It was fun and seems to have worked for some people quite well. I do have some CD's in a cupboard!

But teaching improvisation is such a difficult subject because each player must be treated in a different way - just like visiting the Doctor. We go because we are all ill, but all seem to have different ailments to cure. The same with Improvisation. However, by hearing others within a Class environment, it is possible to follow the changes and the progress and be fired to try such things for yourself. Listening to the CD's might be a little sterile, but they were done to offer encouragement and simplicity and a little enlightenment as to how this particular person views the subject and teaches it.

All the best,

Nigel

[flûte harmonique]

I hope you won't mind an observation from an outsider.

 

I watched this clip and found it ugly. I also watched the Pincemaille (sp?) and Hakim clips posted by the same person.

 

It all seems to be like an exercise in playing as many notes as possible, as loudly as possible, as quickly as possible. There's no beauty in it.

 

I imagine the cognoscenti will be able to point to fantastically clever moments in all these clips and I readily accept I may be far too close to the floor of the aesthetic pyramid to appreciate what I'm hearing, but it's just an ugly noise. Great techinique, no doubt, but where's the music?

 

I know not all improvisation is like this and have heard wonderful, musical improvisations by Thomas Trotter and David Briggs, so I don't think that improvisation is all about technique and not about taste, but so many of these improvisations seem little more than peacock displays.

 

Any organist can convince me of their brilliant technique in 20 seconds. After that, I want to know if they are musicians too.

 

I'd much rather hear, I think, David's 6 soft minutes on Linden Lea.

 

But that's just a personal view from a non-organist.

 

 

J

 

"De gustibus et coloribus non disputendum" but PLEASE don't judge musicians from videos badly recorded....

[mgp]

Ha! How kind of you all to mention me and THE books. Alas, I am such an impossible person when it comes to keeping compositions, books, articles. Most are lost on stashed on a locked Hard Drive. I don't have a copy of Vol 1 - I it lent to somebody, but forget to whom. I have a Vol 2 somewhere. But, much within the little books can be found on the 2 CD's. There is additional material to be found in the comprehensive booklets that come with each. I recorded them in Denmark on a glorious Carsten Lund some years back (I took the Organ Club to the Church in Hjerting, remember?) after an eminent teacher in Amsterdam urged me to do so - as not everyone who was using the books (as was he), could offer examples in playing to students. Thus the recorders rolled and I spoke to some modern statues that substituted for the Class and off I went. It was fun and seems to have worked for some people quite well. I do have some CD's in a cupboard!

But teaching improvisation is such a difficult subject because each player must be treated in a different way - just like visiting the Doctor. We go because we are all ill, but all seem to have different ailments to cure. The same with Improvisation. However, by hearing others within a Class environment, it is possible to follow the changes and the progress and be fired to try such things for yourself. Listening to the CD's might be a little sterile, but they were done to offer encouragement and simplicity and a little enlightenment as to how this particular person views the subject and teaches it.

All the best,

Nigel

Nigel,

 

I have your books and would gladly send you copies/digital scans to reuse/sell as they have proved of immense value to lots of pupils. I agree the discs are very approachable; as you've hinted above, some students will find the written word easier to assimilate and for most the combination of both is more potent than either alone.

 

To revert to the original question: 'give me one tip'. My answer is: Don't buy into the 'born into it or no hope' marketing hype (which served Dupre well). Treat Improvisation as a serious DISCIPLINE to be studied, practised, assessed and improved like any other. Like most posters, I don't claim to be a great improviser but I can deliver something that has structure, melodic, rhythmic and harmonic interest (ie seems like a piece of music) more or less at the drop of a hat. This took several years of work - some of which was 'unlearning' bad habits and requires constant 'maintenance'. Anyone can do it competently if they work at it (just like scales, arpeggios, pedal exercises etc etc).

 

Good luck!

Martin