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Mander Organs
andersboy_5

House Organs

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Are you thinking of this one, by any chance, Alastair?

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=D05164

 

Before you ask, I had forgotten the specification, so it did not influence my own.

 

I once played this instrument for a concert. As far as I can remember, it was quite nice - but not as exciting as the instrument across the road:

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N11195

 

The Methodist Church one is more technically ingenious than tonally anything 'to write home about' whereas the Yates reworking at the Parish Church is something I could really live with. I once spent an interesting half day there with the Rev Ronald Watts (who had the work done in 1958) while researching on Roger yates for an article in OR.

 

This (not far from Kilkhampton):

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N11170

 

albeit slightly larger on the Great - is what I was thinking of - or maybe the small Willis at St Paul's Cathedral.

 

Something also like this maybe:

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=D02754

 

 

AJJ

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"he instrument is to have eleven stops, six of them are at 8p (not counting the Physharmonica) - are you certain that the foundation stops need re-inforcing?!!

 

In any case, I doubt that this would work"

(Quote)

 

It would, like it does in nearly all little Cavaillé-Coll, Van Bever, Schyven

and Kerkhoff organs.

 

Pierre

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Even more impressive is Fisk's Opus 91 ...

 

Assuming that Fisk's Opus 91 is mechanical action and exceeds 45 ranks then I guess I must concede defeat! These darned Americans!

 

Ian Crabbe

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Guest Barry Williams

Few can afford such munificence. Indeed, it takes far more skill to voice a handful of ranks in an unfavourable acoustic.

 

Bishops made a number of house organs along these lines:

 

Great: Open Diapason 8' Stopped diapsaon 8'

 

Swell: Gamba 8' Flute (open) 4'

 

Pedal: Bourdon 16'

 

Swell to Pedal

Swell to Great

 

A few were of 58/30 compass and the Gamba went all the way down.

 

In a smallish house this would enable rehearsal of much of the repertoire.

 

Barry Williams

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Few can afford such munificence. Indeed, it takes far more skill to voice a handful of ranks in an unfavourable acoustic.

 

Bishops made a number of house organs along these lines:

 

Great: Open Diapason 8' Stopped diapsaon 8'

 

Swell: Gamba 8' Flute (open) 4'

 

Pedal: Bourdon 16'

 

Swell to Pedal

Swell to Great

 

A few were of 58/30 compass and the Gamba went all the way down.

 

In a smallish house this would enable rehearsal of much of the repertoire.

 

Barry Williams

 

Someone has done something like this fairly recently in the US - 3 manuals - mechanical action - possibly with the Stopped 8' and a contrasting 4' on the Choir with an Oboe 8' on the Swell. 'Can't remember the actual spec. For me at any rate if I had the space and had not recently purchased my 'digital immitation' (which I incidentally find nicely adequate for my needs) I would go for something more like this or the instrument above than anything with resembling a renaissance positif. Maybe it's my age (or repertoire - or both) but in a medium to small room even contrasting/combining 8s and 4s with some sort of expression is better in my opinion than something more 'in your face and close up'.

 

AJJ

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I would go for a box organ (continuo) organ:

 

Manual 1: Stopped Flutes 8 + 4 and Picolo 2

Manual 2: Regal 8

Pedal: Bourdon 8

 

All ranks of wood, bar the regal which would be mountable on top of the rest of the organ. I would want something that could be transported around. Something like one opf Klop's chest organs in other words as my budget would not be a very big one and neither is the house.

 

Dave

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I would go for a box organ (continuo) organ:

 

Manual 1: Stopped Flutes 8 + 4 and Picolo 2

Manual 2: Regal 8

Pedal: Bourdon 8

 

All ranks of wood, bar the regal which would be mountable on top of the rest of the organ. I would want something that could be transported around. Something like one opf Klop's chest organs in other words as my budget would not be a very big one and neither is the house.

 

Dave

 

The ancient english organ had an open 8'.....8-8-4-2 2/3-2 was the basis.

 

Pierre

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While I await (with interest) this scheme, I recall that you mentioned a four-clavier instrument. With this in mind, I offer the following:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Sub Bourdon (Ext.) 32

Contra Bass (W) 16

Violone (M) 16

Salicional (Great) 16

Bourdon 16

Octave (M) 8

Violoncello 8

Flute (Ext.) 8

Fifteenth 4

Mixture (12-17-19) III

Contra Bassoon (W; ext.) 32

Grand Bombarde (M) 16

Bassoon 16

Trumpet 8

Shawm 4

Chaire to Pedal

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Bombarde to Pedal

 

COMBINATIONS

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Pedal to Swell Pistons

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

 

CHAIRE ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Wald Flute 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Prestant 4

Chimney Flute 4

Quint 2 2/3

Recorder 2

Tierce 1 3/5

Octavin 1

Cimbel (29-33-36) III

Tremulant

Swell to Chaire

Bombarde to Chaire

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Contra Salicional 16

Quintatön 16

Open Diapason 8

Rohr Flöte 8

Flûte Harmonique 8

Cone Gamba 8

Octave 4

Gemshorn (Conical) 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Octave Quint 2 2/3

Super Octave 2

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Bass Trumpet 16

Posaune 8

Clarion 4

Chaire and Great Exchange

Chaire to Great

Swell to Great

Bombarde to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Flauto Traverso 8

Viole de Gambe 8

Voix Célestes (CC) 8

Geigen Principal 4

Suabe Flöte 4

Fifteenth 2

Plein-Jeu (22-26-29) III

Corno di Bassetto 16

Hautbois 8

Voix Humaine 8

Tremulant

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

 

BOMBARDE ORGAN

 

Montre 8

Flûte à Pavillon 8

Principal 4

Furniture (12-15-19-22-26-29) VI

Cornet (1-8-12-15-17: TG) V

Cremona 8

Tremulant

Bombarde 16

Grand Ophicleide 8

Orchestral Trumpet 8

Orchestral Clarion 4

Sub Octave

 

Apologies if you've already said and I've missed it, but which currently functioning firm would you want to build this marvellous theoretical beast?

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Apologies if you've already said and I've missed it, but which currently functioning firm would you want to build this marvellous theoretical beast?

 

Today, I do not know, but Danion-Gonzalez would have in the 60's,

or Jacquot-Lavergne under marcel Dupré's supervision, like

this 1956 example:

http://www.cathedrale-rouen.net/larigot/gr...composition.htm

 

Pierre

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Guest Cynic
Today, I do not know, but Danion-Gonzalez would have in the 60's,

or Jacquot-Lavergne under marcel Dupré's supervision, like

this 1956 example:

http://www.cathedrale-rouen.net/larigot/gr...composition.htm

 

Pierre

 

Pierre,

When they say 'Pedale expressif' do you think this is a misprint?

I seriously doubt whether such a large pedal department in such a case can really be enclosed in a swell-box.

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Pierre,

When they say 'Pedale expressif' do you think this is a misprint?

I seriously doubt whether such a large pedal department in such a case can really be enclosed in a swell-box.

 

A mistake it is. The Pedal isn't enclosed.

But the Bombarde actually is; this idea dates

back from Emile Rupp, and was retained by

Marcel Dupré.

Just for the sake of it: there are plans to W.......rize

this historic organ, as "too néo-classique".

Perhaps it should go to the UK in order to be preserved

-it is worth it-. Maybe you could help, Pcnd?

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Apologies if you've already said and I've missed it, but which currently functioning firm would you want to build this marvellous theoretical beast?

 

Our hosts, Klais or possbly Van den Heuvel.

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A mistake it is. The Pedal isn't enclosed.

But the Bombarde actually is; this idea dates

back from Emile Rupp, and was retained by

Marcel Dupré.

Just for the sake of it: there are plans to W.......rize

this historic organ, as "too néo-classique".

Perhaps it should go to the UK in order to be preserved

-it is worth it-. Maybe you could help, Pcnd?

 

Pierre - I would like to, but can we have their acoustic too, as part of the package, please?

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"The instrument is to have eleven stops, six of them are at 8p (not counting the Physharmonica) - are you certain that the foundation stops need re-inforcing?!!

 

In any case, I doubt that this would work"

(Quote)

 

It would, like it does in nearly all little Cavaillé-Coll, Van Bever, Schyven

and Kerkhoff organs.

 

Pierre

 

Mmmm - well, the voicing must be incredible! As I wrote, on my instrument, this just results in 'organum' noises - which are not particularly useful. It also does nothing for the foundations!

 

I was under the impression that Cavaillé-Coll rarely included the Quinte 2 2/3 much on his smaller instruments - there are even a number of larger organs, where he omitted this stop on the G.O.; Nôtre-Dame, for example.

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Guest Lee Blick

My house organ design:

 

Lobby Organ

8ft Diapason a Parapluie

4ft Stairflote (fitted into the bannisters)

8ft Cariillion

 

Lounge Organ

8ft Harmonia

8ft Mike Flowers Parphorn

 

Boudoir Organ

2ft Dildette

8ft Alarm Encore

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Mmmm - well, the voicing must be incredible! As I wrote, on my instrument, this just results in 'organum' noises - which are not particularly useful. It also does nothing for the foundations!

 

I was under the impression that Cavaillé-Coll rarely included the Quinte 2 2/3 much on his smaller instruments - there are even a number of larger organs, where he omitted this stop on the G.O.; Nôtre-Dame, for example.

 

The 2 2/3' Quinte you will find in small instruments, about 12-18 stops.

It is always placed on the Récit (Swell).

In the crescendo pedals I studied, this Quint always comes in after all

the flues at 16-8-4 pitch, sometimes with the 2' (when present), just

before the reeds and the Mixture (when present).

The idea is indeed to reinforce the 8' tone, because you cannot ever

have enough 8' in any organ.

As for Rouen: better have the Jacquot-Lavergne, designed by Marcel Dupré,

in an english church, whatever its acoustics, than scrapped. Oder?

 

Pierre

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Mmmm - well, the voicing must be incredible! As I wrote, on my instrument, this just results in 'organum' noises - which are not particularly useful. It also does nothing for the foundations!

 

I was under the impression that Cavaillé-Coll rarely included the Quinte 2 2/3 much on his smaller instruments - there are even a number of larger organs, where he omitted this stop on the G.O.; Nôtre-Dame, for example.

I'd like to draw this together with my other topic about the use of the Twelfth. Pcnd, I assume (always a dangerous thing) that you are saying here that you could not usefully combine the Twelfth on G.O. or Swell of the Minster organ with 8p foundations alone as they do not blend together. I take it, then, that you would only draw the Twelfth after the 2p? Could, however, the Quint on the Positive be used to colour other 8p stops?

JC

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The british Twelfth is something entirely different than

the french romantic Quinte; this stops exists since

the very beginning, it is a part of the original Diapason chorus

in a "Ripieno" sense.

Would you draw this romantic Quinte with Montre, Bourdon (8'),

Prestant (4') and Doublette (2') on a Cavaillé, or, even worst,

on a Van Bever organ, the results would be quite harsh, because

neither the 4', the Quint and the 2' are designed to work without

far more foundation tone behind. They are simply too big and

too loud for that.

 

Pierre

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I'd like to draw this together with my other topic about the use of the Twelfth. Pcnd, I assume (always a dangerous thing) that you are saying here that you could not usefully combine the Twelfth on G.O. or Swell of the Minster organ with 8p foundations alone as they do not blend together. I take it, then, that you would only draw the Twelfth after the 2p? Could, however, the Quint on the Positive be used to colour other 8p stops?

JC

A good question, John.

 

Yes - although I go further, and generally omit the Twelfth(s) in both choruses - they come on with the reeds. The Positive Quint blendes better than it should (considering the duty which it performed prior to 1965). However, there is only one 8p Gedeckt on the Positiove - the other 8p stops are both reeds.

 

Certainly, in neither case is the Twelfth useful with just the foundations - not, that is, unless you are fond of tunes in parallel fifths.

 

Whilst I do not wish to prolong a disagreement - Pierre, I cannot instantly think of any smaller instrument by Cavaillé-Coll which possesses a Quinte on the Récit. I have a directory (with specifications) of many of his instuments - I will have a look later.

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The british Twelfth is something entirely different than

the french romantic Quinte; this stops exists since

the very beginning, it is a part of the original Diapason chorus

in a "Ripieno" sense.

Would you draw this romantic Quinte with Montre, Bourdon (8'),

Prestant (4') and Doublette (2') on a Cavaillé, or, even worst,

on a Van Bever organ, the results would be quite harsh, because

neither the 4', the Quint and the 2' are designed to work without

far more foundation tone behind. They are simply too big and

too loud for that.

 

Pierre

 

Pierre - I am sorry, I have mis-understood you. I had thought that you had meant the exact opposite of this statement....!

 

:)

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