Théorbe

[Ian Ball]

Seriously, I have attended countless recitals and services at Gloucester and have never once heard anything from this school of composition. Indeed, this stop doesn't get many outings of any kind: I remember David Briggs playing solos on the Pedal Schalmei in preference!

 

Shame - you must have come on the wrong days, Paul! I can't comment about post-2002, but it was used a fair amount in our day. DJB and I both played a fair amount of French classical music, both liturgically and in recitals; it was also heard in Sweelinck, Bach, Purcell, Handel/Stanley etc, and of course in contemporary music when appropriate. It forms an essential part of the 'symphonic' grand jeux too, not to mention the 18th century one, and was also used in improvisation, often in dialogue with the Schalmei, or indeed coupled to it. Of course a nice enclosed Corno di Bassetto or Clarinet would have been useful, but then so would a French Horn, a chorus of Violes, or a real Flûte Harmonique (tho we did tweak the Spitzflute voicing to try to get close), but we got by... and for nave services, it worked well as a soft Clarinet, usually coupled to a spare 8' flute in the main case.

 

Please understand I'm not uncritical of the Gloucester organ, but a lot of visitors take fright at the much-maligned Cremona, hence me running to its defence! If they heard a real one to Clicquot scalings they'd probably run a mile! Having said all this, I suspect the Gloucester Cremona was intended to be more English than French.

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

[Guest Cynic]

BTW. the stop 'theorbe' seems to be deployed mainly in modern, say post-symphonic instruments.

 

For me the name is wrong; I don't see why renaissance names should line up in neo/post-symphonic designs, but that may be me being to 'calvinistic' (which all dutch are to some extend) perhaps?

 

 

My guess: this name (and concept) came on the scene with Detlef Kleuker and the organs he built to Jean Guillou's designs. Certainly the unusual mutations and choruses at l'Eglise du Chant Oiseau in Brussles really make that curious and exciting instrument.

[Pierre Lauwers]

My guess: this name (and concept) came on the scene with Detlef Kleuker and the organs he built to Jean Guillou's designs. Certainly the unusual mutations and choruses at l'Eglise du Chant Oiseau in Brussles really make that curious and exciting instrument.

 

Yes !

(I was involved).

Would I dare give the specification of this stop ?

(Some may have a heart attack...)

 

Grosse tierce 6 2/5’

Grosse septième 4 4/7’

Grosse neuvième 3 5/9’

 

(No breaks of course, this stop is on the Pedal)

Apologies,

 

Pierre

[heva]

Name convention and composition were known to me.

 

I believe someone one this forum once mentioned a 32 acoustic bass 'tric' by playing C 16' with the 8''s E, B-sharp and d - just like the theorbe.

I've once tested this on the Hill in our church with a 'big' bourdon 16 and a very round st.d.8 and on some notes it shook the floor (although not like the one time a lorry stood before the church with a running engine, sounding exactly an octave below the 16' G - scary that was...).

[nachthorn]

Did you work out what the bloody thing can be used for?

Worms (can of)

 

On the (numerous) recordings of the Gloucester instrument, the Cremona certainly seems to work effectively in Classical French repertoire. Just not in Stanford.

Repeat after me: Must. Prepare. Properly. On. Unfamilar. Instruments!

[nfortin]

Repeat after me: Must. Prepare. Properly. On. Unfamilar. Instruments!

Does not apply I'm afraid, I'm very familiar with the instrument having played in many times both in services and concerts over many years.

[Barry Jordan]

My guess: this name (and concept) came on the scene with Detlef Kleuker and the organs he built to Jean Guillou's designs. Certainly the unusual mutations and choruses at l'Eglise du Chant Oiseau in Brussles really make that curious and exciting instrument.

 

No. The Steinmeyer I mentioned was built in 1937, and it had its Theorbe then.

[pcnd5584]

Yes !

(I was involved).

Would I dare give the specification of this stop ?

(Some may have a heart attack...)

 

Well, not I, Pierre! I can certainly see uses for such a stop, particularly on the Pedal Organ.

Grosse tierce 6 2/5’

Grosse septième 4 4/7’

Grosse neuvième 3 5/9’

 

(No breaks of course, this stop is on the Pedal)

Apologies,

 

Pierre

 

Much cheaper than a 32p reed - although not quite as good.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Much cheaper than a 32p reed - although not quite as good.

 

Really ?

 

Here is the specification of the Pedal:

 

Flûte Ouverte 16

Soubasse 16

Quinte 10 2/3

Théorbe III

Flûte 4

Flûte creuse 2

Contrebasson 32

Bombarde 16

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Shame - you must have come on the wrong days, Paul! I can't comment about post-2002, but it was used a fair amount in our day. DJB and I both played a fair amount of French classical music, both liturgically and in recitals; it was also heard in Sweelinck, Bach, Purcell, Handel/Stanley etc, and of course in contemporary music when appropriate. It forms an essential part of the 'symphonic' grand jeux too, not to mention the 18th century one, and was also used in improvisation, often in dialogue with the Schalmei, or indeed coupled to it. Of course a nice enclosed Corno di Bassetto or Clarinet would have been useful, but then so would a French Horn, a chorus of Violes, or a real Flûte Harmonique (tho we did tweak the Spitzflute voicing to try to get close), but we got by... and for nave services, it worked well as a soft Clarinet, usually coupled to a spare 8' flute in the main case.

 

Please understand I'm not uncritical of the Gloucester organ, but a lot of visitors take fright at the much-maligned Cremona, hence me running to its defence! If they heard a real one to Clicquot scalings they'd probably run a mile! Having said all this, I suspect the Gloucester Cremona was intended to be more English than French.

 

Kind regards

 

Ian

 

I heartily concur!

 

The Gloucester organ is a wonderful instrument. Personally I think that the cathedral world would be less rich without it. Whatever one's preference, surely it would be rather dull if all the cathedral organs sounded like Ripon or Bristol - however good these instruments are. For the record, I like both these instruments a lot and have enjoyed playing several services on each, although if asked to state a preference out of the two, I would choose Bristol - without question.

 

It is surely a question of how one approaches the Gloucester organ. If one is expecting it to be able to provide lush string sounds or nice Clarinet solos (which can be made virtually to disappear at the depression of an expression pedal), then clearly, one will be disappointed. However, if one realises that it has to be treated differently - and to register differently (and that there are some things which it cannot do), then it is just as capable of making beautiful sounds as any other cathedral organ.

 

In reality, it is no different to me going to Truro and complaining because it only has jangly tierce mixtures, and two unenclosed Clarinet stops (even if one is called Corno di Bassetto) and Pedal reed that is only of any use if the full organ is drawn. Truro has plenty of features which, although different to those problems of registration posed by the design of the Gloucester organ, are just as annoying to me as the others at Gloucester are to some contributors here.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Want to hear a true Cromorne from Clicquot ?

Suffice to ask.....Here is a recording from inside

the Positif case at Poitiers:

 

http://perso.orange.fr/organ-au-logis/Musi...CromornePos.mp3

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Really ?

 

Here is the specification of the Pedal:

 

Flûte Ouverte 16

Soubasse 16

Quinte 10 2/3

Théorbe III

Flûte 4

Flûte creuse 2

Contrebasson 32

Bombarde 16

 

Pierre

 

You make no mention of the cost of either stop, Pierre; your post serves only to indicate that the church in question was able to afford both stops. Personally, I should always prefer a 32p reed, if there is space for one (and the acoustic and design of the rest of the instrument make this feasible). However, I doubt that a full-length 32p reed would be cheaper to provide than a Théorbe III.

[AJJ]

Really ?

 

Here is the specification of the Pedal:

 

Flûte Ouverte 16

Soubasse 16

Quinte 10 2/3

Théorbe III

Flûte 4

Flûte creuse 2

Contrebasson 32

Bombarde 16

 

Pierre

 

Are there not some rather out of the ordinary 'sub mutations' on the manuals of this organ too?

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

Are there not some rather out of the ordinary 'sub mutations' on the manuals of this organ too?

 

AJJ

 

Of course there are. First on the Positif:

 

POSITIF I

 

 

 

Chant d’oiseau 8

Gemshorn 4

Piccolo 1

Sesquialtera II

Aliquot IV

Cymbale III

Ranquette chamade 16

Dulzaina en chamade 8

 

 

The specification of the "Aliquot, 4 ranks" is as follows:

 

Grosse Quinte 5 1/3'

Grosse Tierce 3 1/5'

Grosse Neuvième 1 7/9'

Quinzième 1 1/15'

 

This stop has two functions:

 

1)- To bind the very crude Regals with the whole of the instrument;

 

2)- To fill the gaps between the Quint Mixtures ranks in order to allow the tutti (apologies...)

 

(This organ is designed as a whole, not several little organs like a baroque one)

 

Then you have a giant Mixture on the Great, divided upon two slides: Grosse Mixture and Plein-jeu,

based on the 32' (10 2/3');

A "Plein-jeu progressif" on the Swell, that is, a "Progression harmonique" in Cavaillé-Coll's nomenclature,

or "Progressiv harmonica" in Walcker's nomenclature. This stop has 3 ranks in the bass, and seven

in the treble. It is designed to build the Full-Swell with the reeds.

 

Last but not least, on the Solo Manual (which is decidely not a Solo!) there is a Jeu de Tierce 8-4-2 2/3-2-1 3/5

which is entirely made of Flute harmonique pipes.

(This was not new: Stahlhuth already made such ensembles towards the end of the 19th century).

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Of course there are. First on the Positif:

 

POSITIF I

 

 

 

Chant d’oiseau 8

Gemshorn 4

Piccolo 1

Sesquialtera II

Aliquot IV

Cymbale III

Ranquette chamade 16

Dulzaina en chamade 8

The specification of the "Aliquot, 4 ranks" is as follows:

 

Grosse Quinte 5 1/3'

Grosse Tierce 3 1/5'

Grosse Neuvième 1 7/9'

Quinzième 1 1/15'

 

This stop has two functions:

 

1)- To bind the very crude Regals with the whole of the instrument;

 

2)- To fill the gaps between the Quint Mixtures ranks in order to allow the tutti (apologies...)

 

(This organ is designed as a whole, not several little organs like a baroque one)

 

Then you have a giant Mixture on the Great, divided upon two slides: Grosse Mixture and Plein-jeu,

based on the 32' (10 2/3');

A "Plein-jeu progressif" on the Swell, that is, a "Progression harmonique" in Cavaillé-Coll's nomenclature,

or "Progressiv harmonica" in Walcker's nomenclature. This stop has 3 ranks in the bass, and seven

in the treble. It is designed to build the Full-Swell with the reeds.

 

Last but not least, on the Solo Manual (which is decidely not a Solo!) there is a Jeu de Tierce 8-4-2 2/3-2-1 3/5

which is entirely made of Flute harmonique pipes.

(This was not new: Stahlhuth already made such ensembles towards the end of the 19th century).

 

Pierre

 

This all sounds quite interesting, Pierre.

 

Do you happen to know if there are any sound-files which would illustrate these stops, please? I cannot promise to like them - but I am interested to hear them!

[Pierre Lauwers]

No, there are no sound files on line, just some CDs

barely available.

Like with many interesting organs in Belgium! little country,

little market, this mean s few documentation.

This is a pity because Belgium is a quite interesting

Orgellandschaft; Niehoff already worked here, Langhedul

invented the french organ in the Flanders, and afterwards

we build ecclectic organs since the baroque period with

dutch, german, french and british influencies !

Among the modern organs we also have one of the first

"néo-classique" organs built, a 1930 Klais in Antwerpen,

a time when Victor Gonzalez still built post-romantic organs.

This is a big four manuals organ:

http://users.skynet.be/quickbase/parochie/klaisorgel.html

 

The Chant d'oiseau opened the "Post-neo baroque" period in

Belgium. Now we are a page further. If we had money, you

could expect something.....

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Want to hear a true Cromorne from Clicquot ?

Suffice to ask.....Here is a recording from inside

the Positif case at Poitiers:

 

http://perso.orange.fr/organ-au-logis/Musi...CromornePos.mp3

 

Pierre

 

A Willis II Clarinet, recorded from the same unflattering position is unlikely to sound much different!

[Pierre Lauwers]

A Willis II Clarinet, recorded from the same unflattering position is unlikely to sound much different!

 

Do you mean Willis III, not II ?

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

No, there are no sound files on line, just some CDs

barely available.

Like with many interesting organs in Belgium! little country,

little market, this mean s few documentation.

 

The Chant d'oiseau opened the "Post-neo baroque" period in

Belgium. Now we are a page further. If we had money, you

could expect something.....

 

Priory Records produced a CD of this organ in its Great European Organs Series (No. 2 - played by Keith John). There is some good playing on it as one would expect form this player. I also used to have a recording by Guillou on the Dorian label but it was full of rather 'obvious' arrangements of Trumpet Tunes and such like - I gave this CD away! Similar noises to Chant d'oiseau can be heard on the Guillou\Kleuker organ in the Tonhalle in Zurich. Guillou's arrangement of the Pictures at an Exhibition (amongst other things) would ruffle a few feathers I think - this is also from Dorian.

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

As I said elsewhere, this organ is quite loud. It could accomodate

a larger church by far.

This was an experimental organ, an opportunity to experiment

new ideas.

In this sense it is already historic, and will be kept as it is.

There are much things I learned from it, especially about mixtures.

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Do you mean Willis III, not II ?

 

Pierre

 

No - II. He was acknowledged as a superb voicer. The quiet solo reeds at Exeter Cathedral are among the finest in the country.