Another Choir Bites The Dust...

[DHM]

Check this out:

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[gazman]

Check this out:

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Very sad, although at least somebody in the choir seems to have retained a sense of humour over this, perhaps.

 

I remember giving a recital on that organ many years ago, and would understand if the choir had been frightened off by the dreadful Krummhorn (or whatever it was called) that I seem to remember is (was?) on the instrument.

 

I wonder what the winning bidder will receive.....?

 

Another score to him with the forked tongue, the hoofs and the spiked tail.

 

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

Perhaps they would like to switch loyalties (a little) and consider a short journey to this side of the Severn Bridge?

[tribunegallery]

This is extremely sad - yet another decent choir bites the dust. Gary Desmond (the D of M there) has done extremely well keeping alive the choral tradition in what is the Parish Church of Bristol, right in the centre of town, surrounded by shops and offices. Given that there are choirs at the Cathedral, Lord Mayor's Chapel, Clifton Cathedral all in striking distance as well as numerous other choirs in the area, it can't be easy recruiting singers etc. RIP.

 

NS

[DHM]

Gary Desmond (the D of M there) has done extremely well keeping alive the choral tradition in what is the Parish Church of Bristol,

NS

Is he still there? Long service indeed.

I think he was the organist when I used to practice there while at uni in the late 60s.

 

Given that there are choirs at the Cathedral, Lord Mayor's Chapel, Clifton Cathedral all in striking distance

Not forgetting Redcliffe, of course.

[AJJ]

This is extremely sad - yet another decent choir bites the dust. Gary Desmond (the D of M there) has done extremely well keeping alive the choral tradition in what is the Parish Church of Bristol, right in the centre of town, surrounded by shops and offices. Given that there are choirs at the Cathedral, Lord Mayor's Chapel, Clifton Cathedral all in striking distance as well as numerous other choirs in the area, it can't be easy recruiting singers etc. RIP.

 

NS

 

I thought that Christ Church up at Clifton (that not so long ago had its loud organ made louder) took care of all those of an alternative musical disposition in central Bristol - this is a great shame.

 

AJJ

[Guest Lee Blick]

I guess the displacing of organists and choir will continue to the extent only the large parish churches and cathedrals will have them, and the other churches which have lots of money will be able to maintain them. Meanwhile, the smaller local churches will either be content with music groups or close down if these churches cannot attract musicians.

 

It is already happening here in Brighton and Hove. Countless churches with traditional worship/music are being closed down because not enough people worship in them. It is sad, I guess, but not that surprising. The only churches that are growing are the evangelical/pentecostal ones.

[Guest Barry Williams]

Many of the central London Churches have very traditional music with superb professional choirs yet manage to attract good congregations. The key feature is the enthusiasm of the incumbent for the style of worship. Much so-called 'modern' worship has the cleric as the central figure. Common Worship (as frequently enacted) tends to be a priest centrered liturgy, usually conducted with the celebrant or 'president' standing at the focus of the action, rather than traditional worship which has the focus elsewhere, hopefully Godward.

 

For some reason, a number of the clergy find a traditional choir/choral set-up a threat to progress. Quite a few priests seem only able to conduct worship if the music is based on out-dated styles of the nineteen sixties, (watered down Spinners and Seekers, etc) and all traditional hymns and liturgy are banned or discouraged.

 

It was with much regret that I learned in the past few days of one church where it is written into the job description that only 'one sheet' of music is to be played after the morning service - just enough to get people to the back of the church for coffee. Also, there is an uncomfirmed report that a Dean has instructed organists at his cathedral not to play voluntaries of more than five minutes for the same reason, having altered the liturgy from traditional to 'You' and 'Yours', which is not, of course, anything approaching 'modern', but merely ecclesiastical newspeak.

 

It is small wonder that organs feature little in the requirements of many churches these days.

 

Barry Williams

[Guest Lee Blick]

For some reason, many clergy find a traditional choir/choral set-up a threat to progress. Many priests seem only able to conduct worship if the music is based on out-dated styles of the nineteen sixties, (watered down Spinners and Seekers, etc) and all traditional hymns and liturgy are banned or discouraged.

 

So what is being done to address this? Is there no influence from bodies such as the RSCM and the RCO in the clergy training colleges?

 

Many of the central London Churches have very traditional music with superb professional choirs yet manage to attract good congregations.

 

That is wonderful, but that is bound to happen in a wealthy capital city. But what about in the rest of the country? It does seem to be divided between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. Many places have no hope to ever experience choral/organ music of that quality.

 

Perhaps the diocese should employ a small professional choir to visit various parishes who don't have a regular choir, week-by-week. Or perhaps the Cathedral music department could develop one (not necessarily taking from the cathedral choir).

[Vox Humana]

It is already happening here in Brighton and Hove.

It's already a fait accompli where I live. From my back window I can see a church that still maintains a choir of sorts that I believe attempts to sing the odd anthem and am aware of one or two others, but to all intents and purposes church music here is as dead as the proverbial Dodo.

 

Common Worship (as frequently enacted) tends to be a priest centrered liturgy, usually conducted with the celebrant or 'president' standing at the focus of the action, rather than traditional worship which has the focus elsewhere, hopefully Godward.

Interesting observation. I had not looked at it like that. However, I'm not sure that I buy your implication that it is due to the difference between Common Worship and BCP. Is it not more of a high church versus low church difference in values? After all, the free churches have always been predominantly minister-centered.

 

And consider the following, addressed to a group of visiting American musicians:

 

"I feel it to be my duty here to plead for preservation and culture of the anthem; a form of composition whose existence in England is at present seriously jeopardized by a strong wave of congregationalism. I can see no reason why a trained choir and a hearty congregation should not both find room for the exercises of their religious worship and musical gifts in the same building; but this moderate and common-sense view does not satisfy congregational agitators; they desire to expel all trained musicians from our churches. If the anthem should lose its hold in England, I pray you to make it your adopted child. You are too sensible to imagine that it is merely an ingenious contrivance for "showing off" trained voices; you know that it has in itself the power of teaching impressively; and bringing home to the inmost heart the highest truths of religion."

 

This is so true of the situation everywhere today; yet these words were actually spoken by Sir John Stainer in 1895! (Quoted from Jeremy Dibble's excellent book on the man.)

[nachthorn]

Is there no influence from bodies such as the RSCM and the RCO in the clergy training colleges?

As if... In fact, the RSCM seems quite happy aboard the worship song/gospel/Iona bandwagon at the moment. Perhaps the new Director will set them back on course.

 

My wife is a singer/singing teacher. The recently-ordained curate of a local parish church of simple Anglo-Catholic tradition is paying for weekly hour-long singing lessons so that she can tackle the bread-and-butter sung parts of the Mass. She said that she had no musical training at all during her theological studies, and she felt that the vast majority of new ordinands wouldn't know a neume from a bagpipe (or words to that effect). No wonder they stick to the secular styles they already know - I certainly can't blame them.

 

** Rant alert **

 

What astonishes me, as a thoughtful traditionalist Christian in his twenties, is that some clergy and PCCs think that they can 'attract the young people' by importing weak copies of horribly old-fashioned folk/pop (the Spinners and Seekers stuff mentioned by Barry) and turning the spoken liturgy into something resembling council committee minutes. I sometimes feel guilty because, on some Sundays, I just can't find the strength of will to walk into a church, run the gauntlet of suspicious stares simply because I'm under 50, try to stay awake during the sermon, try to sing the terrible songs anyway (and receive further malevolent glances for letting the side down by actually singing, rather than simply emitting low groans) and try not to feel bewildered and disappointed by the whole affair. Most Anglican parish churches are run by the over-60's for the over-60's*, and no amount of window-dressing, dumbing-down, politically correcting, rubbish pop music etc. is going to make up for that. These young people want some honesty, true belief, inspiration, and decent coffee at the end of it!

 

The Roman Catholic church seems to be experiencing something of an upsurge of younger people wanting something more than barren 60's-80's modernism. The Latin mass, plainsong, choral music and a whole host of other traditional ideas seem to be making a comeback in certain places. How long before they pass the Anglican church going the other way?

 

(*Note: I would like to make it clear that I have no argument with the over-60's!)

[Vox Humana]

To get back to the original subject, it looks suspiciously as though some friends of the "seller" are bidding, presumably to ensure that the choir does not inadvertently end up as some sheikh's harem, or worse. If my experience on eBay is anything to go by, it could all go horribly wrong in the last few seconds. Still, what's a spot of negative feedback when you're using a one-off identity?

[Guest Cynic]

So what is being done to address this? Is there no influence from bodies such as the RSCM and the RCO in the clergy training colleges?

 

 

Please forgive a well-worn cliche but

LOL!

[MusingMuso]

As if... In fact, the RSCM seems quite happy aboard the worship song/gospel/Iona bandwagon at the moment. Perhaps the new Director will set them back on course.

 

My wife is a singer/singing teacher. The recently-ordained curate of a local parish church of simple Anglo-Catholic tradition is paying for weekly hour-long singing lessons so that she can tackle the bread-and-butter sung parts of the Mass. She said that she had no musical training at all during her theological studies, and she felt that the vast majority of new ordinands wouldn't know a neume from a bagpipe (or words to that effect). No wonder they stick to the secular styles they already know - I certainly can't blame them.

 

** Rant alert **

 

What astonishes me, as a thoughtful traditionalist Christian in his twenties, is that some clergy and PCCs think that they can 'attract the young people' by importing weak copies of horribly old-fashioned folk/pop (the Spinners and Seekers stuff mentioned by Barry) and turning the spoken liturgy into something resembling council committee minutes. I sometimes feel guilty because, on some Sundays, I just can't find the strength of will to walk into a church, run the gauntlet of suspicious stares simply because I'm under 50, try to stay awake during the sermon, try to sing the terrible songs anyway (and receive further malevolent glances for letting the side down by actually singing, rather than simply emitting low groans) and try not to feel bewildered and disappointed by the whole affair. Most Anglican parish churches are run by the over-60's for the over-60's*, and no amount of window-dressing, dumbing-down, politically correcting, rubbish pop music etc. is going to make up for that. These young people want some honesty, true belief, inspiration, and decent coffee at the end of it!

 

The Roman Catholic church seems to be experiencing something of an upsurge of younger people wanting something more than barren 60's-80's modernism. The Latin mass, plainsong, choral music and a whole host of other traditional ideas seem to be making a comeback in certain places. How long before they pass the Anglican church going the other way?

 

(*Note: I would like to make it clear that I have no argument with the over-60's!)

 

 

===========================

 

 

 

 

A comment from the heart, and one with which many of us will identify.

 

About twenty-five years ago, I wrote a letter to "Organist's Review," which caused a bit of a furore. In it, I more or less predicted the almost total demise of church-music: something that was already beginning to happen then, but which has since gathered pace.

 

In that letter, I was careful to avoid the various strands of thought relating to "dumbing down" and "the inferiority of pop music."

 

Instead, I concentrated my attention on what I saw as theological stagnation and the growth of a type of arrogant, modern-day puritanism, which on balance, seems to me to be as valid now as I felt it to be then.

 

Permit my self-indulgence as I expand on this a little, because the larger picture I find quite sinister.

 

I will begin with a factual story, which concerns something as personal as my own family. My uncle, (whom I never really knew, but often heard about), died of a heart-attack at a tragically young age. However, he was never anything but a humble farmer, who ran a dairy-herd, milked the cows and delivered the milk to houses using a horse and cart. This was a grinding routine which probably contributed to his early demise; especially since he had a weak-heart.

 

Like so many of his generation, he was educated well in maths and english; could write beautifully, and knew his Bible from cover to cover, without in any way being a zealot. At school and in the church-choir, he had learned hymns and anthems, and the method used to teach him was the old, and now somewhat despised methods of "tonic sol-fa." Blessed with a rich and vibrant bass voice, he loved to sing, and the story goes that he would sing hymns to himself as he tended the herd and did his rounds. He was fortunate, in that he lived in that part of Yorkshire where choral-singing and oratorios were a part of life, and his great hobby and passion was to sing in the choir. He then became choirmaster of a large Methodist church. This projected him into the higher echelons of musical-society, and by his mid-twenties, he had developed his vocal-techniques and timbre to such an extent, that he was drafted into one of the most respected choral-societies, with which he would often sing as bass soloist. One thing led to another, and with a lot of encouragement, he started to do the rounds as a bass soloist.

This led to his discovery; following which he sang with some of the great choral-societies as bass-soloist, in many performances of "Elijah," "Messiah," "the Bach B-Minor" and the other standard works of the choral repertoire.

 

One day, he was approached by a top conductor (I don't actually know which one), who asked him to sing alongside Isobelle Bailey and Kathleen Ferrier, and from then on, he was regularly billed to appear with them.

 

When approached by the BBC, and asked to become a preofessional staff singer, he declined, on the grounds that he was a family man, and replied, "Nay! The family and the cows'll miss me if I do that!"

 

Now compound this with what was then going on in the brass band movement. Here were ordinary folk who picked up an instrument, joined a junior band, who were taught, encouraged and then welcomed up the ranks, until the best might join some of the finest. As Frank Fowler knows only too well, the organ-builder John Clough was one such, and possibly the doyen of euphonium players for a whole generation; held in awe by all those who play a brass instrument. He was the principal euphonium for Black Dyke Mills Band for many years.

 

Now what does this tell us about society then?

 

Does it not tell us, that within society and in educational establishments, there was the sense that ordinary people could do extraordinary things?

 

Is it not the story of Sir Edward Elgar: a humble church-organist and brass-band man, who although largely self-taught, was obviously not discouraged from his chosen path, and who was permitted to achieve his full potential?

 

Coming a little more up-to-date, during the swinging-sixties when I was a schoolboy, my heroes were never pop-stars and celebrities. Instead, my heroes were inventors, scientists and engineers; something which has never left me. Looking back to that time, it really is quite remarkable that I regularly had conversations with Prof Sir Fred Hoyle,(the atsronomer/cosmologist), often chatted to the writer J. B. Priestley on a Sunday afternoon and had a friend who's father was a nuclear scientist, who had been involved in the Manhattan Project and who went on to work in atomic research at Aldermarston.

 

Look at what is going on to-day, with celebrity cults, political correctness gone mad, a society which creates victims as often as it makes excuses for them, and the false idea that "everyone has to be a winner" by shifting the academic goal-posts. It's difficult not to get political, but by the strangest of ironies, it is the "levelled societies" of the former communist states which developed some of the finest education systems, and which continue to-day, even after democratic independence. What a staggering contrast there is between the young from Poland (and other Eastern European countries), and the bored, disinterested youths who shuffle around the streets, with only the pub as the focal point of their existence; when they're not high on drugs.

 

Nowadays, I can count the number of good church-choirs in my own locality on the fingers of one hand, yet I couldn't count the number of times I've heard clergy talk about "being relevant" even with every hair on my head. This they say, in spite of the fact that the churches are empty and most are now closed.

 

It seems to me, that there are two ways of perceiving life. One is to say, "You are fallen creatures; unworthy and low, and your salvation will only come if you accept the conformity of the status quo."

 

This way, there will always be generated a self-perpetuating, smug, enlightened elite; and this applies as much to secular society as it does to religion.

 

The other way is to suggest that, "God helps them that help themselves."

 

This is the belief in individual potential, and the idea that people will be supported in their endeavours. One crushes people, and the other lifts them up.

 

Would someone therefore please inform me why it is, that learning to sing great music or play a wonderful instrument, is seen as somehow "irrelevant" to God's purpose?

 

Much as I love pop music, I don't feel that I want to worship it, or be part of the status-quo which, with immaculate political-correctness, ask no questions and tell no lies!

 

MM

[gazman]

Perfectly put, MM. Thank you.

[Jim Treloar]

Holz Gedeckt - you got there before me. Unfortunately on this board I think MM is preaching to the converted but thanks all the same.

[Guest Barry Williams]

Holz Gedeckt - you got there before me. Unfortunately on this board I think MM is preaching to the converted but thanks all the same.

 

 

A couple of weeks ago I presided at an organ as DOA (an extension instrument by Peter Collins Ltd - yes, really!) for the dedication of the instrument and the dedication of new rooms. The Bishop preached wholeheartedly, explaining that Jesus gave us a way of life before a religion. He linked the beauty of the church, the organ, the music and the service to mission, thanking the people for the huge fund raising effort and especially for choosing a real organ. He encouraged everyone in the continuation of their work. The service was BCP with traditional hymns. It was simple and relatively unsophisticated - no complex anthems, just a few chants and responses with the combined benefice choirs. But it attracted a full church and made the congregation feel it was all worthwhile maintaining the building for worship and appreciation. It was challenging, in a positive way. It all felt 'right'. There was no 'dumbing down'. He showed his belief and appreciation of the congregation's endeavours, from the pulpit. He talked about the difficulties of maintaing a Listed Building, telling them how effective the building was for people and that was part of God's purpose. It was quite an occasion. I only wish there were more events like that and more Bishops with that message.

 

Barry Williams

 

PS There are at least two churches in Brighton maintaining traditional music: St Bartholomew's and The Good Shepherd.

[DQB123]

PS There are at least two churches in Brighton maintaining traditional music: St Bartholomew's and The Good Shepherd.

St George's Kemp Town n'est ce pas?

Q

[an unknown disciple]

I’m a clergyman with an FRCO officiating partly in a group of villages. In one village, there is enthusiasm for music, and we have traditional hymns for some services, worship songs for one service a month, an occasional anthem, sung BCP offices, and there’s talk of resurrecting Merbecke for special occasions (it will happen, I’m sure). The musicians decide: I facilitate. In some places, the organist is competent but plays slowly. In some places the speed is fine but the accuracy is not. And so it goes on. The truth is that we have to make do with what we can get. If we organise social events to give tips on stops, pedals, speeds, etc, with a social occasion thrown in, the people who come are those that don't need to. I can believe that in some places, some worshippers might be repelled by what confronts them musically, and not come again. I sometimes would like a said service with unaccompanied hymns, but that assumes that there is someone to lead the singing if I'm not there. How do all you organists suggest we go about dealing with the conflict between mission issues (an organist can repel worshippers) and pastoral issues (the organist is doing the best s/he can and is loyal and faithful)?

 

It is not only clergy who can act as if that they are the focus of a personality cult: organists can, too, and do. Some organists deliberately choose hymn tunes that congregations don’t know, simply because the tune is ‘better music’. Some organists do the equivalent of sulking when congregations may want to chant psalmody, and do all they can to discourage it because, they imagine, it spoils the ‘subtleties’ of the choir (there is a tradition of good congregational chanted psalmody in the Church of Ireland, that many could learn from). Some organists pitch tunes they don't like too high deliberately, some play tunes they don't like too fast or too slow for comfortable singing. I have been to Anglo-catholic churches (to which I am sympathetic) where the organist plays as if s/he is in a private pseudo-Walsingham fantasy-world quite irrelevant to the needs of the congregation. The organist was using the congregation for his/her private therapy, or prolonging his/her childhood. It was not edifying.

 

A very significant problem arises because children in most (state aided or state controlled) primary schools are no longer introduced to any traditional hymns: the staff have been brought up with no knowledge of them at all (often no knowledge of Christianity either). Even when the staff are sympathetic to Christianity, there is often an attitude of ‘children don’t like boring old hymns’, the corollary being that they do like jumpy, ‘seekers’ style songs (that is, the staff like them, so the children will). School staff are part of the problem.

 

Many clergy would be delighted to have decently performed music of any sort, traditional or happy-clappy (a good music group would be better than a poor organist), but outside the prosperous suburbs and posh villages good simple music is not always easy to arrange. Clergy are an easy target for organists, but I know that organists can behave just as badly to clergy as clergy to organists. Perhaps organists should be taking action in the primary schools rather than just moaning about the clergy. Everything goes in cycles: we are back to the 17th and 18th centuries, perhaps, as far as church and church music is concerned, but another revival is not yet in sight, IMHO.

[Guest Lee Blick]

PS There are at least two churches in Brighton maintaining traditional music: St Bartholomew's and The Good Shepherd.

 

St. Bart's is well attended wealthy anglo-catholic enclave just round the corner where I live. The Good Shepherd is another church in Dyke Road, in a very wealthy district of town.

 

On the other hand there is St. Peter's which has a traditional boys/men set up with a 4 manual Willis, but that is being closed down because the congregational numbers are too small to be able to sustain a large building.

 

It is not only clergy who can act as if that they are the focus of a personality cult: organists can, too, and do. Some organists deliberately choose hymn tunes that congregations don’t know, simply because the tune is ‘better music’. Some organists do the equivalent of sulking when congregations may want to chant psalmody, and do all they can to discourage it because, they imagine, it spoils the ‘subtleties’ of the choir (there is a tradition of good congregational chanted psalmody in the Church of Ireland, that many could learn from). Some organists pitch tunes they don't like too high deliberately, some play tunes they don't like too fast or too slow for comfortable singing. I have been to Anglo-catholic churches (to which I am sympathetic) where the organist plays as if s/he is in a private pseudo-Walsingham fantasy-world quite irrelevant to the needs of the congregation. The organist was using the congregation for his/her private therapy, or prolonging his/her childhood. It was not edifying.

 

I recognise a lot what you say here. Sometimes choral participation can appear to be a 'performance' rather than an 'act of worship' and organists can have huge egos which obstruct a common-sense approach to worship which engages the congregation rather than repels them.

[DQB123]

I’m a clergyman with an FRCO officiating partly in a group of villages. ... How do all you organists suggest we go about dealing with the conflict between mission issues (an organist can repel worshippers) and pastoral issues (the organist is doing the best s/h.

 

Hallelujah! At last a response other than "blame it on the vicar". I could not agree more, I love good music and long to have more time to devote to practice, pray regularly for a good choir (O Lord hear my prayer...), and after reading the above now feel inspired to face the day ahead.

 

DQB

[DQB123]

On the other hand there is St. Peter's which has a traditional boys/men set up with a 4 manual Willis, but that is being closed down because the congregational numbers are too small to be able to sustain a large building.

Beautiful church and organ which I had the pleasure of playing a couple of years ago. I hear that there is some sort of re-organisation going on in Brighton, but also hear that chaos is the result. What a shame if St Peters (vast - almost like a cathedral) was to go.

 

(Wouldn't mind being Vicar there - what a grand challenge it would be....)

[Peter Clark]

A very significant problem arises because children in most (state aided or state controlled) primary schools are no longer introduced to any traditional hymns: the staff have been brought up with no knowledge of them at all (often no knowledge of Christianity either). Even when the staff are sympathetic to Christianity, there is often an attitude of ‘children don’t like boring old hymns’, the corollary being that they do like jumpy, ‘seekers’ style songs (that is, the staff like them, so the children will). School staff are part of the problem.

 

Perhaps organists should be taking action in the primary schools rather than just moaning about the clergy. Everything goes in cycles: we are back to the 17th and 18th centuries, perhaps, as far as church and church music is concerned, but another revival is not yet in sight, IMHO.

 

A superb analysis!

 

This problem certainly obtains in my area. My predecessor was actually refused by the headmistress permission to come to the local school and recruit for the choir on the grounds that the children "don't like that kind of music" - with the result that the choir now almost totally cosnsists of over 40s with three teenagers). To this end I have as it were decided to take the law into my own hands and am running an introductory day for children, initially to get them to appreciate the nature and capabilities of the organ but it is to be hoped that this wll lead on to their coming to at least want to learn a litle more about traditional church music. I am fortunate in that my partner runs the parish Brownies and Rainbows; I have composed for them simple (but not patronising I hope) music for them to sing at Mass. (Apologoes to the old gang who have read all this stuff from me before.)

 

And so we have a generation which now only knows the Israeli mass and I watch the sunrise and a lot of other stuff which sounds all the same - as you say, the staff are part of the problem but I would go further - the are the instigators of the problem.

 

 

Peter

[martin_greenwood]

MM - here's once more voice of appreciation for your heartfelt words.

[Guest Lee Blick]

Beautiful church and organ which I had the pleasure of playing a couple of years ago. I hear that there is some sort of re-organisation going on in Brighton, but also hear that chaos is the result. What a shame if St Peters (vast - almost like a cathedral) was to go.

 

(Wouldn't mind being Vicar there - what a grand challenge it would be....)

 

The problem is with St. Peter's is that it is only a few hundred yards away from St. Bart's. In addition there is a very succesful independant evangelical church in the vicinity which atrracts hundreds of people on a Sunday.

 

Personally I think things started to to go wrong when they tried to make St. Peter's another High Anglican church. If it had stayed 'middle of the road', as it was, it would be fulfilling a need.

 

Both St. Peter's and All Saints Hove, the major churches are threatened with closure, represents the seriousness of the situation in Brighton & Hove, as far as the C of E goes.