A Second Chance

[pcnd5584]

You might be interested to know that the H&H Solo strings from Gloucester found their way into the Solo Division of St John's Cathedral Brisbane, when it was rebuilt by HNB (Aust.) in 1971.

JG

 

Are you certain of this? I believe that this has been suggested by another board member in the past and it was apparently not the case. It may also have been given thus in Organists' Review some years ago - by Paul Hale; I remember reading (either from John Norman or possibly Frank Fowler) that this was, in fact, not true.

 

Can anyone recall for sure, please?

[AJJ]

Are you certain of this? I believe that this has been suggested by another board member in the past and it was apparently not the case. It may also have been given thus in Organists' Review some years ago - by Paul Hale; I remember reading (either from John Norman or possibly Frank Fowler) that this was, in fact, not true.

 

Can anyone recall for sure, please?

 

'Vaguely similar recollections - 'can't remember from where though.

 

AJJ

[jonadkins]

Sorry - didn't mean to help turn this into a "have a bitch about Gloucester" thread. A Nativite du Seigneur there in the late nineties (given by Ian Ball, when he was assistant) did a lot to ignite my interest in Messiaen, and French C20th organ music in general.

[James Goldrick]

Are you certain of this? I believe that this has been suggested by another board member in the past and it was apparently not the case. It may also have been given thus in Organists' Review some years ago - by Paul Hale; I remember reading (either from John Norman or possibly Frank Fowler) that this was, in fact, not true.

 

Can anyone recall for sure, please?

 

I can find one online source from The Musical Times:

 

S.J. Webb, 'The rebuilt Gloucester Organ', The Musical Times, cxii (1971), p.799 (Accessed via JSTOR)

 

"To make a separate third manual department when heard from the nave, a West Positive organ very light in texture has been placed within the case at the lower level immediately behind the parapet. It will be played from the fourth manual of the console, the old Solo organ having been discarded entirely (the big Tuba has gone to All Saints, Margaret Street, London, and the string stops to Brisbane Cathedral, Australia)."

 

[Ian Ball]

I take your point that it was necessary to find an acceptable way of providing gravitas, without incurring a bill for £30,000 just for twelve pipes - plus the expense of hauling them up into place in the triforium again! However, I think that it is not unreasonable to conclude that David was impressed with the Pédale mutations at N.-D. and so wished to install something similar at Gloucester.

Absolutely. I was simply trying to express my opinion that DJB did not set out to make the organ sound "like Notre-Dame" or overtly more French in general, but simply that the organ lacked gravity, particularly in the nave and when used under an orchestra, and that pedal mutations were a cost-effective, space-saving solution. The notion expressed by some that he ruined the organ in some way is simply ludicrous, because nothing was removed from the HNB incarnation (except the roof, for well-rehearsed reasons which don't need repeating here).

 

Had DJB wanted to 'Frenchify' the organ, there's plenty he could have done, not least accede to one influential local organist's suggestion to replace the West Positive with a Bombarde division, or Ian Fox's suggestion of chamades on a turntable, so that they could be fired towards Quire or Nave as required! (Funnily enough, this latter idea, lubricated by London Pride, soon blossomed into the image of a kind of giant Leslie speaker of chamades, revolving at high speed ). Philippe Lefebvre painstakingly reviewed the instrument, inside and out, and also made some detailed suggestions for improvement, resulting in a 5-manual design. All these were resisted. As in the late 1960s, money was one deciding factor, but DJB was acutely conscious of not wishing to upset the Downes concept - yes a thing of its time just as BBC costume dramas of that period always have the protagonists in 60s hair and makeup, despite the Empire-line frocks and hunting pink - but of historical and musical value nonetheless.

 

I love your revised Willis/Harrision scheme by the way. But I do wonder where it could all have gone

 

Re: organist's perception from the console (from another post) - yes the uneven-sounding Swell is a pain in the backside to be honest, and you just have to trust that your fingers are playing evenly. However, it's not a major issue and you do get used to it. Far more disconcerting and difficult to live with is, for example, the totally distorted impression of division balance you get from the console at Wells or Redcliffe.

[pcnd5584]

I love your revised Willis/Harrision scheme by the way. But I do wonder where it could all have gone

 

Thank you, Ian!

 

With regard to the additions - there is actually very little extra from the 1920 specification. The Solo Trompette Harmonique would have gone horizontally on top of the Swell box (facing west), the Pedal 32ft and 16ft. posaunes would have gone in the screen well*, where the present Pedal mutations and 32ft. reed are sited and the Pedal upperwork (Fifteenth and Mixture) would have been tucked in wherever there was room, with due regard for tonal egress and access for tuning and maintenance.

 

 

 

* This is the one part at which I am stretching things. I hope that there would have been enough room underneath and beside the old Solo box to house the pipes for this extended rank.

[Ian Ball]

Sorry - didn't mean to help turn this into a "have a bitch about Gloucester" thread. A Nativite du Seigneur there in the late nineties (given by Ian Ball, when he was assistant) did a lot to ignite my interest in Messiaen, and French C20th organ music in general.

Thank you - I miss playing the Messiaen every year. It really marked the start of my Christmas!

[pcnd5584]

To get this thread back on track: does anyone fancy having a go at the organ of Bradford Cathedral? I have never been convinced by it on paper, particularly its apparent lack of clavier sub-unison ranks - only a Quintaten on the Chancel Organ and a Contra Fagotto on the Swell Organ. In addition, the G.O. reeds seem a little strange and there are a few stops on the Solo Organ which seem mis-placed.

[JWAnderson]

To get this thread back on track: does anyone fancy having a go at the organ of Bradford Cathedral? I have never been convinced by it on paper, particularly its apparent lack of clavier sub-unison ranks - only a Quintaten on the Chancel Organ and a Contra Fagotto on the Swell Organ. In addition, the G.O. reeds seem a little strange and there are a few stops on the Solo Organ which seem mis-placed.

 

After having a look on NPOR, I can't say that I would want to keep this organ in its current state. Why did they replace a pipe Nave organ with an electronic Nave section?

If I was going to make any changes to it, I would probably take it back to the 3 manual 1904 Hill & Son organ, but possibly with the addition of a Solo organ with Harmonic Flutes 8&4, Orchestral Bassoon 16, Orchestral Trumpet 8 and Tuba 8 & possibly 4 or something like this.

I would probably make the addition of a Quint 2 2/3 to the G.O. and maybe a Cornet II on the Choir.

 

JA

[pcnd5584]

After having a look on NPOR, I can't say that I would want to keep this organ in its current state. Why did they replace a pipe Nave organ with an electronic Nave section?

If I was going to make any changes to it, I would probably take it back to the 3 manual 1904 Hill & Son organ, but possibly with the addition of a Solo organ with Harmonic Flutes 8&4, Orchestral Bassoon 16, Orchestral Trumpet 8 and Tuba 8 & possibly 4 or something like this.

I would probably make the addition of a Quint 2 2/3 to the G.O. and maybe a Cornet II on the Choir.

 

JA

 

This certainly seems like a good idea.

 

Speaking of organs by William Hill & Son, here is Chester Cathedral organ, as it might have been if the R&D rebuild of 1969-70 had never happened:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 32

Open Diapason Wood 16

Open Diapason Metal 16

Violone 16

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Violoncello 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth 4

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Contra Trombone 32

Trombone 16

Bombarde 8

Choir to Pedal

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

 

CHOIR ORGAN

(unenclosed)

 

Double Dulciana 16

Open Diapason 8

Cone Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Gemshorn 4

Wald Flute 4

Stopped Flute 4

Flautina 2

Mixture (15-19-22) III

Sharp Mixture (22-26-29) III

Clarinet 8

Tremulant

Swell to Choir

Solo to Choir

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Open Diapason III 8

Flûte à Pavillon 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Octave 4

Principal 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2 ²/₃

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Contra Posaune 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

Great Reeds on Pedal

Great Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Solo to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Viola (CC) 8

Vox Angelica (TC) 8

Principal 4

Suabe Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Hautboy 8

Tremulant

Contra Fagotto 16

Cornopean 8

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

Solo to Swell

 

SOLO ORGAN

(Enclosed)

 

Viole de Gambe 8

Viole Céleste (CC) 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Harmonic Flute 4

Contra Bassoon (CC) 16

Orchestral Oboe 8

Vox Humana 8

Tremulant

(Unenclosed)

 

Mounted Cornet (1-8-12-15-17: TG) V

Tuba Mirabilis 8

Orchestral Trumpet 8

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

COMBINATIONS

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Pedal to Swell Pistons

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

[JWAnderson]

This certainly seems like a good idea.

 

Speaking of organs by William Hill & Son, here is Chester Cathedral organ, as it might have been if the R&D rebuild of 1969-70 had never happened:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 32

Open Diapason Wood 16

Open Diapason Metal 16

Violone 16

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Violoncello 8

Flute 8

Fifteenth 4

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Contra Trombone 32

Trombone 16

Bombarde 8

Choir to Pedal

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

 

CHOIR ORGAN

(unenclosed)

 

Double Dulciana 16

Open Diapason 8

Cone Gamba 8

Claribel Flute 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Gemshorn 4

Wald Flute 4

Stopped Flute 4

Flautina 2

Mixture (15-19-22) III

Sharp Mixture (22-26-29) III

Clarinet 8

Tremulant

Swell to Choir

Solo to Choir

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Open Diapason III 8

Flûte à Pavillon 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Octave 4

Principal 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2 ²/₃

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Contra Posaune 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

Great Reeds on Pedal

Great Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Solo to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Viola (CC) 8

Vox Angelica (TC) 8

Principal 4

Suabe Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Hautboy 8

Tremulant

Contra Fagotto 16

Cornopean 8

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

Solo to Swell

 

SOLO ORGAN

(Enclosed)

 

Viole de Gambe 8

Viole Céleste (CC) 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Harmonic Flute 4

Contra Bassoon (CC) 16

Orchestral Oboe 8

Vox Humana 8

Tremulant

(Unenclosed)

 

Mounted Cornet (1-8-12-15-17: TG) V

Tuba Mirabilis 8

Orchestral Trumpet 8

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

COMBINATIONS

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Pedal to Swel Pistons

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

 

From what you have got here, it looks like it would be a very good organ.

The one thing I really like about the current organ is the casework, especially the gold pipes.

 

JA

 

P.S. Another organ we could have a go at is the Willis/Manders organ in Canterbury Cathedral?

[pcnd5584]

From what you have got here, it looks like it would be a very good organ.

The one thing I really like about the current organ is the casework, especially the gold pipes.

 

JA

 

P.S. Another organ we could have a go at is the Willis/Manders organ in Canterbury Cathedral?

 

Absolutely! Although the present case also clothed the 'Hill' organ of 1910.

 

I have to go out to teach shortly. I shall look forward to reviewing your specification when I return.

[AJJ]

After having a look on NPOR, I can't say that I would want to keep this organ in its current state. Why did they replace a pipe Nave organ with an electronic Nave section?

JA

 

I think it was because someone felt that it was in the liturgical way! It straddled the nave on four legs in a rather strange looking case by (I think) Sir Edward Maufe - architect of the eastern cathedral extensions. Bradford University also has research going on into digitals etc. so I would guess the solution to the above was also convenient.

 

AJJ

[JWAnderson]

Absolutely! Although the present case also clothed the 'Hill' organ of 1910.

 

I have to go out to teach shortly. I shall look forward to reviewing your specification when I return.

I have come up with a Specification for the Canterbury Cathedral Willis organ.

It would retain most of the pipework from the 1949 Willis organ, except with a few additions.

 

Great Organ

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Open Diapason III 8

Claribel Flute 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Octave 4

Flûte Harmonique 4

Twelfth 2 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Tierce Mixture (17.19.22)

Grand Mixture (15.19.22.26.29)

Trombone 16

Tromba 8

Clarion 4

Swell to Great

Swell to Great Octave

Swell to Great Sub Octave

Choir to Great

Solo to Great

 

Swell Organ

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedact 8

Salicional 8

Vox Angelica (tc) 8

Principal 4

Flûte Triangulaire 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (15.17.19.22)

Hautboy 8

Vox Humana 8

Contra Posaune 16

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

Swell Octave

Swell Unison Off

Swell Sub Octave

Solo to Swell

 

Choir Organ

Lieblich Gedact 16

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Flöte 8

Viola d' Amour 8

Flauto Traverso 8

Gemshorn 4

Suabe Flöte 4

Nazard 2 2/3

Flautina 2

Tierce 1 3/5

Mixture (19.22.26)

Trumpet 8

Corno di Bassetto 8

Tremulant

Choir Octave

Choir Unison Off

Choir Sub Octave

Swell to Choir

Solo to Choir

Great Reeds to Choir

 

Solo Organ

Contra Viole 16

Flûte Harmonique 8

Viole d' Orchestre 8

Celeste (tc) 8

Flûte Conique 4

Grand Cornet (1.8.12.15.17)

Cor Anglais 16

Orchestral Oboe 8

Contra Tuba 16

Tuba 8 (ext. 16')

Harmonic Clarion 4 (ext. 16')

Tremulant (not on Tubas)

Solo Octave

Solo Unison Off

Solo Sub Octave

 

Pedal Organ

Double Open Bass 32

Open Bass 16 (ext. 32')

Open Diapason 16 (G.O.)

Violone 16

Bourdon 16

Lieblich Gedact 16 (Ch)

Octave Diapason 8 (ext. Open bass)

Principal 8 (ext. Violone)

Bass Flute 8 (ext. Bourdon)

Fifteenth 4 (ext. Violone)

Octave Flute 4 (ext. Bourdon)

Mixture (12.17.19.22)

Posaune 16 (Sw)

Cor Anglais 16 (So)

Contra Ophicleide 32

Ophicleide 16 (Ext. 32')

Clarion 8 (Ext. 32')

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Swell to Pedal Octave

Choir to Pedal

Choir to Pedal Octave

Solo to Pedal

Solo to Pedal Octave

 

Nave Organ

Double Diapason 16 (stopped bass from Nave Pedal)

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Octave Quint 2 2/3

Super Octave 2

Mixture (17.19.22.26)

Trumpet 8

 

Nave Pedal Organ

Sub Bass 16

Octave 8 (borrowed Manual)

Bass Flute 8 (ext. Sub Bass)

 

Combination Couplers

Great & Pedal Combinations Coupled

Swell & Pedal Combinations Coupled

Generals on Toe Pistons

 

For the Nave organ, I have borrowed Pcnd's idea of using the bottom 12 notes of the Sub Bass for the manual 16'.

The Nave organ would be played from the G.O. manual as in the current scheme. There would be about 8 thumb pistons to each manual division and 8 toe pistons for the Pedal. Also 8 General thumbs, duplicated by toe pistons for Swell or Generals.

 

One thing I would like to see incorporated on this organ is the case that was designed by Sir Gilbert Scott, who designed the Chester Cathedral case as well. The organ could also be spread out over both sides of the Choir. The Nave would be placed in the same place as the current division.

 

JA

[pcnd5584]

What an excellent scheme; add an Octavin 1 (present until 1978) to the Choir Organ and it is perfect.

[JWAnderson]

What an excellent scheme; add an Octavin 1 (present until 1978) to the Choir Organ and it is perfect.

 

Yes I think that the Octavin 1 would be a useful addition to the Choir. I would possibly also move the Choir Mixture up to 22.26.29.

 

JA

[pcnd5584]

Yes I think that the Octavin 1 would be a useful addition to the Choir. I would possibly also move the Choir Mixture up to 22.26.29.

 

JA

 

I think that this would be even better. I also like the idea of using the Scott design for the case. Presumably you have seen a copy of the drawing for this - can you tell me where I could also see this, please?

[JWAnderson]

I think that this would be even better. I also like the idea of using the Scott design for the case. Presumably you have seen a copy of the drawing for this - can you tell me where I could also see this, please?

 

I found a copy of the case design in the book entitled "The Organs of Canterbury Cathedral" by Toby Huitson, and it is on page 10 if you happen to have a copy of the book. If you are lucky there might be a picture of the case on the internet somewhere.

From what I can tell of this small picture, the layout is 3-2-7-2-3 with two levels on the outer towers.

 

JA

[Paul Morley]

This certainly seems like a good idea.

 

Speaking of organs by William Hill & Son, here is Chester Cathedral organ, as it might have been if the R&D rebuild of 1969-70 had never happened:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Double Open Diapason 32

Open Diapason Wood 16

Open Diapason Metal 16.....

 

Don't forget to duplex the Ch Contra Dulciana onto the Pedal, otherwise the Ch, situated in the S quire aisle at some distance from the rest of the organ, is pretty much useless other than as a continuo division. I can't imagine why this stop was only added in recent years.

[pcnd5584]

Don't forget to duplex the Ch Contra Dulciana onto the Pedal, otherwise the Ch, situated in the S quire aisle at some distance from the rest of the organ, is pretty much useless other than as a continuo division. I can't imagine why this stop was only added in recent years.

 

Of course! I kept reminding myself of the location of the Choir Organ at Chester - but then forgot to make this stop available on the Pedal Organ.

[Guest Roffensis]

What an excellent scheme; add an Octavin 1 (present until 1978) to the Choir Organ and it is perfect.

 

 

Yes indeed, pretty good, but for pities sake let's hold on to all of the old Willis work, as far too much Solo and Choir pipework was so sadly removed in 1978. What remains was, and still is, incomparable. And of course this includes the Tubas, both gems. I do not think a 16 foot Tuba is needed? I would be cautious of adding mixtures. The old Willis Mixtures are excellent, but the later (Quint) ones to both Swell and Great do not "fit" in the same way. I think the Swell Cornet Mixture should be returned, and that there should not be a further effort to "spike up" the organ again. The old console should also be returned, which was very fine indeed. Frankly I would sooner see a bold return to the 1968 spec, but without the extended pedal which were not really ideal and ought to have been straight (er).

 

R

[stewartt]

Apologies for going back to Gloucester, but I had the pleasure of playing it for a visiting choir evensong last weekend. I've not encountered it before and found it to be one of the most satisfying and musical English organs I have ever played. Yes it doesn't have all the usual English cathedral organ sonic toys, but what it does have is so musical and beautiful and works so well that you don't really want anything else.

 

Leave it alone, please - Downes got this one absolutely right.

 

Stewart Taylor

[Pierre Lauwers]

Apologies for going back to Gloucester, but I had the pleasure of playing it for a visiting choir evensong last weekend. I've not encountered it before and found it to be one of the most satisfying and musical English organs I have ever played. Yes it doesn't have all the usual English cathedral organ sonic toys, but what it does have is so musical and beautiful and works so well that you don't really want anything else.

 

Leave it alone, please - Downes got this one absolutely right.

 

Stewart Taylor

 

Maybe. But Herbert Howells ran out during the opening, and never composed again...

So if it is to be left alone, others should -or should have been-.

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

I don't think Cynic's ever claimed that he ran out, only that he was furious about his organ being "smashed up". Nor did he stop composing, not even organ music. Epilogue (1974) and St Louis comes to Clifton (1977) both post-date the Gloucester rebuild.

[Ian Ball]

Apologies for going back to Gloucester, but I had the pleasure of playing it for a visiting choir evensong last weekend. I've not encountered it before and found it to be one of the most satisfying and musical English organs I have ever played. Yes it doesn't have all the usual English cathedral organ sonic toys, but what it does have is so musical and beautiful and works so well that you don't really want anything else.

 

Leave it alone, please - Downes got this one absolutely right.

 

Stewart Taylor

Glad you liked it (the cheque's in the post )