Jonathan Thorne Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Sorry to be an organ buff but to my ears the organ at Liverpool Cathedral (C of E) has lost a lot of power as I heard it the other week both up and downstairs. I know the Tuba Magna has been revoiced many times, but there's something about it which isn't the same. Any thoughts?........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazman Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Sorry to be an organ buff but to my ears the organ at Liverpool Cathedral (C of E) has lost a lot of power as I heard it the other week both up and downstairs. I know the Tuba Magna has been revoiced many times, but there's something about it which isn't the same. Any thoughts?........ Ear wax? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Thorne Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Ear wax? No it wasn't Ear wax - there's something not right about the organ. The Grand Chorus isn't on it's 10 ranks anymore and the Tuba Magna is not on 50 and their resonaters have been cut down and tongues moved a few notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 No it wasn't Ear wax - there's something not right about the organ. The Grand Chorus isn't on it's 10 ranks anymore and the Tuba Magna is not on 50 and their resonaters have been cut down and tongues moved a few notes. ================== That should please "pcnd" no end. Has he applied? MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Ball Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 No it wasn't Ear wax - there's something not right about the organ. The Grand Chorus isn't on it's 10 ranks anymore and the Tuba Magna is not on 50 and their resonaters have been cut down and tongues moved a few notes. One of the most thrilling sounds I ever heard was the Anniversary Recital the year the Tuba Magna was moved to the gallery below the South Transept facade. The Dean (I think) welcomed the capacity crowd by reading Psalm 150, after which Ian Tracey immediately launched into Grand Choeur Dialogué using the Tuba. The effect on the audience, heads still bowed, was like a Mexican wave. Although loud, it was a glorious sound - the same attack as York, but brighter. The pipes were clearly visible on that occasion, but I don't recall seeing them since, or hearing the TM with quite so much presence. I've always wanted to know why/when the Pedal mutations were suppressed. Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notanorganist Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Sorry to be an organ buff but to my ears the organ at Liverpool Cathedral (C of E) has lost a lot of power as I heard it the other week both up and downstairs. I know the Tuba Magna has been revoiced many times, but there's something about it which isn't the same. Any thoughts?........ I gather its once again the largest instrument in the Country http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-n...00252-20182466/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstott Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I was interested to see that an updated specification for the organ has just been published on the Cathedral website, including the new Central organ: http://www.liverpoolcathedral.org.uk/Resou...ECIFICATION.pdf There was a short interview with Ian Tracey and David Wells on Sunday morning on BBC Radio Merseyside talking about the new Central organ which I understand was used for the first time last Saturday when the new Dean was installed. Looking at the spec, the Tuba Magna is still on 50". It certainly still sounded as powerful as ever last time I heard it. Looking forward to hearing the new Central organ when I visit the Cathedral over Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 One of the most thrilling sounds I ever heard was the Anniversary Recital the year the Tuba Magna was moved to the gallery below the South Transept facade. The Dean (I think) welcomed the capacity crowd by reading Psalm 150, after which Ian Tracey immediately launched into Grand Choeur Dialogué using the Tuba. The effect on the audience, heads still bowed, was like a Mexican wave. Although loud, it was a glorious sound - the same attack as York, but brighter. The pipes were clearly visible on that occasion, but I don't recall seeing them since, or hearing the TM with quite so much presence. I've always wanted to know why/when the Pedal mutations were suppressed. Anyone know? There were only three - all of which were derived from one stopped wooden rank. The specification as printed in The Organ Volume III No. 12 (April 1924) lists the folllowing mutations and mixtures: Double Quint 21 1/3 Quint 10 2/3 (Parent rank) Twelfth 5 1/3 Mixture (17-19-22) III Fourniture (15-19-22-26-29) V By the mid-1970s, the organ booklet which was available at that time listed no Pedal mutations - and the composition of the three-rank Mixture had been altered to 15-19-22. Given that there is still a Resultant bass (64ft.) - which I found to be strangely unsatisfying in quiet music - and three full-length 32ft. flues, I suspect that the mutations proved to be ineffective. However, I would agree that the organ is not as loud as it used to be. I heard it live in 1986 and had to leave the building, since I found the sound to be almost unbearably loud. I also heard it a couple of years ago at the August Bank Holiday recital (which was played superbly by Ian Tracey). Although I had been given a reserved seat in the front row, I was actually disappointed at the full organ sound - even with the new party horns and octave couplers, it was certainly not unbearably loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonadkins Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 There were only three - all of which were derived from one stopped wooden rank. The specification as printed in The Organ Volume III No. 12 (April 1924) lists the folllowing mutations and mixtures: Double Quint 21 1/3 Quint 10 2/3 (Parent rank) Twelfth 5 1/3 Mixture (17-19-22) III Fourniture (15-19-22-26-29) V By the mid-1970s, the organ booklet which was available at that time listed no Pedal mutations - and the composition of the three-rank Mixture had been altered to 15-19-22. Given that there is still a Resultant bass (64ft.) - which I found to be strangely unsatisfying in quiet music - and three full-length 32ft. flues, I suspect that the mutations proved to be ineffective. However, I would agree that the organ is not as loud as it used to be. I heard it live in 1986 and had to leave the building, since I found the sound to be almost unbearably loud. I also heard it a couple of years ago at the August Bank Holiday recital (which was played superbly by Ian Tracey). Although I had been given a reserved seat in the front row, I was actually disappointed at the full organ sound - even with the new party horns and octave couplers, it was certainly not unbearably loud. In the recent (excellent) Priory DVD from Liverpool, Ian Tracey talks about the "vulgar fractions" on the organ which I assume means the mutation stops. Am I right, and is this common parlance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 In the recent (excellent) Priory DVD from Liverpool, Ian Tracey talks about the "vulgar fractions" on the organ which I assume means the mutation stops. Am I right, and is this common parlance? Various organists (and others) do indeed refer to mutations as 'vulgar fractions'. Whether or not it is considered to be common parlance, I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Various organists (and others) do indeed refer to mutations as 'vulgar fractions'. Whether or not it is considered to be common parlance, I do not know. We may also encounter "whistles". (Unfair for original, or simply well-made and voiced stops, of course) Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 We may also encounter "whistles". (Unfair for original, or simply well-made and voiced stops, of course) Pierre Absolutely, Pierre! The Liverpool mixtures sounded quite good when I last heard them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Robinson Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 However, I would agree that the organ is not as loud as it used to be. I heard it live in 1986 and had to leave the building, since I found the sound to be almost unbearably loud. I also heard it a couple of years ago at the August Bank Holiday recital (which was played superbly by Ian Tracey). Although I had been given a reserved seat in the front row, I was actually disappointed at the full organ sound - even with the new party horns and octave couplers, it was certainly not unbearably loud. [/font] When we get older... (Sorry! I assure you, I am only joking!) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
contrabordun Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 For what it's worth, a vulgar fraction is what mathematicians call fractions written in the 1/2 form (as opposed to decimal fractions). Not sure why it needs to be made explicit, I've never seen a twelfth labelled as 2.67... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJK Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 For what it's worth, a vulgar fraction is what mathematicians call fractions written in the 1/2 form (as opposed to decimal fractions). Not sure why it needs to be made explicit, I've never seen a twelfth labelled as 2.67... I believe that a vulgar fraction is one where the numerator is a higher number than the denominator. Hence a 2 2/3 twelfth would be 8/3, and vulgar. A larigot would be 4/3, also vulgar. In this definition, the higher pitched mutations (none, septieme etc) would not be vulgar. So I find it a rather confusing term to use in this context - in fact the DVD by Prof Tracey was the first time I heard it used by an organist. Why not simply "fractions", or more conventionally "mutations" JJK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJK Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I believe that a vulgar fraction is one where the numerator is a higher number than the denominator. Hence a 2 2/3 twelfth would be 8/3, and vulgar. A larigot would be 4/3, also vulgar. In this definition, the higher pitched mutations (none, septieme etc) would not be vulgar. So I find it a rather confusing term to use in this context - in fact the DVD by Prof Tracey was the first time I heard it used by an organist. Why not simply "fractions", or more conventionally "mutations" JJK Sorry - having looked at wikipedia , I realise that there are apparently differing usages - "vulgar fraction" may mean any fraction and "improper fraction" is the type I described as vulgar. My maths teacher wasn't aware of this! Anyway, it does explain the use of the term for mutations. At least we can be sure that lower pitched mutations are both vulgar and improper! JJK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "At least we can be sure that lower pitched mutations are both vulgar and improper!" (quote) Darf ich eine Übersetzung haben, bitte ? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Willis Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "At least we can be sure that lower pitched mutations are both vulgar and improper!"(quote) Darf ich eine Übersetzung haben, bitte ? Pierre "Mindestens wir können sicher sein, daß niedrigere geworfene Veränderungen vulgär und unsachgemäß sind" is the nearest that I can get - doesn't really go, in German does it? David Wyld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dulciana Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The term "vulgar fraction" simply means common fraction; in other words a numerator over a denominator (neither zero). However, the term vulgar is sometimes (wrongly) reserved for improper fractions (ones in which the numerator is greater than the denominator). I don't see what's wrong with calling mutations mutations. Vulgar fractions should be reserved for the mathematical context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "Mindestens wir können sicher sein, daß niedrigere geworfene Veränderungen vulgär und unsachgemäß sind" is the nearest that I can get - doesn't really go, in German does it? David Wyld. Das ist ganz verstandbar, kein Problem. (Bezüglich Liverpool wäre eine komplettes Zurückkehrs zur originelles Zustand, aussergewöhnliche terzhaltige und septimehaltige Mixturen inklusiv, besonders empfehlenswert...) (The above isn't translatable in english, apologies) Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHM Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Das ist ganz verstandbar, kein Problem.(Bezüglich Liverpool wäre eine komplettes Zurückkehrs zur originelles Zustand, aussergewöhnliche terzhaltige und septimehaltige Mixturen inklusiv, besonders empfehlenswert...) (The above isn't translatable in english, apologies) Pierre Doch, Pierre – das läßt sich ziemlich leicht ins Englische überstetzen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Doch, Pierre – das läßt sich ziemlich leicht ins Englische überstetzen. Would I have made some progress then ? My mothertongue was a flemish dialect, which is closer to the standard "Hochdeutsch" than the "Algemeen beschaafd nederlands". I read more easily in german than in french or dutch; but to the point of being translatable, well, da'ss gans nieuw. Mat gréiss, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprondel Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "Mindestens wir können sicher sein, daß niedrigere geworfene Veränderungen vulgär und unsachgemäß sind" is the nearest that I can get - doesn't really go, in German does it? David Wyld. Erm ... It works, in a way, if you translate "vulgar" as "gewöhnlich", which means both "normal" and, well, "vulgar". "Zumindest können wir sicher sein, dass tiefe Aliquote sowohl gewöhnlich als auch unpassend sind". But don't let Friedrich Ladegast overhear you saying that. Best, Friedrich (a different one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 "But don't let Friedrich Ladegast overhear you saying that." (Quote) Hé hé hé.... Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DQB123 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I haven't had chance to get over to Liverpool just recently, but has anyone heard the new nave section of the organ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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