Dream Oxbridge Chapel Organ

[cornetdeschats]

Here's the premise: Merton College will have a new Choral foundation from 2008, and it is decided that a new organ is needed (for the current instrument see npor). For those of you that don't know Merton it is one of the largest Oxford chapels on a T shape plan, rather like St John's Cambridge - a cathedral without a nave. The instrument should be in the same position.

 

My two cents:

 

Ped

Contra Bourdon 32' (A)

Principal 16'

Subbass 16' (A)

Bourdon quint 10 2/3' (A)

Lieblich Bourdon 16' (Sw)

Choral bass 8'

Flute 8'

Fifteenth 4'

Trombone 16'

Contra posaune 16' (sw)

Trumpet 8' (Gt)

 

Choir

Enclosed

Dulciana 8'

Bourdon 8'

Principal 4'

Stopped Flute 4'

Salicet 4'

Doublet 2'

Harmonia Aeth III

Sesquialtera II

Vox Humana 8'

Corno di bassetto 8'

 

Tromba 8'

 

Great

Open Diapason 8'

Hohl Flute 8'

Gamba 8'

Harmonic Flute 4'

Principal 4'

Flageolet 2'

Quatern II

Great Mix IV

Cornet IV

Trumpet 8'

 

Swell

Enclosed

L. Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8'

Chimney flute 8'

Salish 8'

Box angelica 8'

Principal 4'

Fifteenth 2'

Mixture IV

Contra posaune 16'

Hautboy 8'

Cornopaean 8'

Clarion 4'

 

Or is this just slightly dull?

[Vox Humana]

Gamba instead of Dulciana on the Choir - far more use in actual music.

 

Vox Humana transferred from the choir to the Sw (but only because I like playing French Romantic music).

 

Céleste instead of angelica on the Sw. (ditto) - more colour and more versatile.

 

If you have already extended the Sub Bass rank to 32' on the Ped, why do you need to quint it at 10²/₃? (But I've been drinking Aberlour A'bunadh at 60.5% tonight so am well beyond rational thought just now.)

 

Contra Fagotto instead of 16' Posaune on the Sw (or at least voice it like a Fagotto, whatever you call it). A beefy 16' Sw reed is simply not necessary and a Fagotto (suitably voiced) can be used with the Oboe as a miniature Full Swell, before adding the Trumpets.

 

This is my biggest beef about the organ at Rochester Cathedral (with all apologies to Mr Mander) - although the Sw 16' reed is actually a Fagotto, it is heavy-toned and only usable with the Trumpet and Clarion; it is too heavy for use with the Sw Oboe. A miniature Full Swell is obtainable with the Solo reeds, but that is by the by. For maximum flexibility one would prefer choice of Full Swells on the Swell manual.

[cornetdeschats]

If you have already extended the Sub Bass rank to 32' on the Ped, why do you need to quint it at 10²/₃? (But I've been drinking Aberlour A'bunadh at 60.5% tonight so am well beyond rational thought just now.)

 

-Wouldn't it add a 'whoomf' (in the technical sense...) of some sort?

[Vox Humana]

-Wouldn't it add a 'whoomf' (in the technical sense...) of some sort?

It seems to, but you'd be better off asking the distillery.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Contra Bourdon 32' (A)

Principal 16'

Subbass 16' (A)

Bourdon quint 10 2/3' (A)

Lieblich Bourdon 16' (Sw)

Choral bass 8'

Flute 8'

Fifteenth 4'

Trombone 16'

Contra posaune 16' (sw)

Trumpet 8' (Gt)

 

Choir

Enclosed

Dulciana 8'

Bourdon 8'

Principal 4' Why a Principal ? Rather: Dulciana Principal 4'

Stopped Flute 4'

Salicet 4'

Doublet 2' Rather: Dulcet 2'

Harmonia Aeth III This stop is 2 2/3'- 2'- 1 3/5', duplicate also with the Sesquialtera. Rather: Dulciana Mixture without 17th

Sesquialtera II

Vox Humana 8'

Corno di bassetto 8'

 

Tromba 8'

 

Great As the Pedal has 32' tone, you need a 16' here.

Open Diapason 8'

Hohl Flute 8'

Gamba 8'

Harmonic Flute 4'

Principal 4'

Flageolet 2'

Quatern II What is this ? A Rauschquint, also 2 2/3'- 2' ?

Great Mix IV

Cornet IV

Trumpet 8'

 

Swell

Enclosed

L. Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8'

Chimney flute 8'

Salish 8'

Box angelica 8' A Box or a Vox ?

Principal 4'

Fifteenth 2'

Mixture IV

Contra posaune 16'

Hautboy 8'

Cornopaean 8'

Clarion 4'

 

Pierre

[Guest Cynic]

I'd be a bit more cautious about size than some of you! Merton Chapel is large compared to most Oxford Colleges, but it's not the sort of size that these specifications would seem to need. Even if money is no object, I'd be surprised if they went for anything larger than, for example, the Metzler in the University Church (a larger space).

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N09194

 

Unlike that design, I would hope that they would go for a decent enclosure, and inside it a good Swell spec including Celestes, a traditional English Oboe and chorus reeds at 16 and 8, but I imagine a Great of about 7 stops and a choir of 7 or 8 would be plenty. I'm talking about something of the size and character of the new Tickell at Cheltenham Ladies College

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=E01241

which would sound splendid if given a decent acoustic and Merton certainly has one of those! The old Rushworth and Dreaper that stood in Merton in my youth (and sounded perfectly adequate to their needs - though unfashionable, of course) consisted of less than 20 stops

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N11030

and took up a fair amount of ante chapel floorspace.

 

As organs go, Oxford is about as 'politically correctly inclined' as anywhere, so you can forget electric action; you'll be lucky to get electric stop controls!

[cornetdeschats]

Still, wouldn't it be great to have at least one place in Oxford capable of the old Celestes + 32p accompaniment in psalms and what have you...

[AJJ]

Try this:

 

GREAT

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Open Flute 8

Salicional 8

Octave 4

Conical Flute 4

Tierce 3-1/5

Octave 2

Quint 1-1/3

Sesquialtera 2-2/3 II

Mixture 1-1/3 IV

Trumpet 8

Tremulant

 

CHOIR (Enclosed)

Stopped Flute 8

Principal 4

Chimney Flute 4

Nazard 2-2/3

Gemshorn 2

Octave 1

Mixture 1 III

Clarinet 8

Tremulant

 

SOLO (Enclosed)

Harmonic Flute 8

Chimney Flute 8

Gamba 8

Celeste 8

Open Flute 4

Cornet (TC) 2-2/3 III

Vox Humana 8

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

PEDAL

Principal 16

Sub Bass 16

Octave 8

Stopped Flute 8

Octave 4

Mixture 2-2/3 IV

Trombone 16

 

Usual Couplers plus Solo to Pedal 4 & Solo to Great 16

 

Voiced somewhere between late Clicquot and early Cavaille-Coll!

 

AJJ

[cornetdeschats]

Since size would obvs be an issue, what about the idea of having swell reeds reeds (particularly the clarinet, for promiscuous use in Stanford et al) available on the choir. Then both the solo and accomp would be under expression, and the choir could go in the normal ruckpos position without the extra machinery.

 

Subbass 32’ (A)

Open Diapason 16’

Bourdon 16’ (A)

Principal 8’

Flute 8’

Fifteenth 4’

Trombone 16’

Trumpet 8’ (gt)

 

Swell

Enclosed

Open Diapason 8’

Salicional 8’

Chimney Flute 8’

Vox Celeste 8’

Principal 4’

Fifteenth 2’

Mixture III

Double Clarinet 16’ + Extra Octave

Hautboy 8’

Cornopaean 8’

 

Great

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8’

Hohl Flute 8’

Principal 4’

Flageolet 2’

Cornet V

Quint Mix II (2 2/3' + 2'

Great Mixture IV

Trumpet 8’

 

Choir

Stopped Diapason 8’

Principal 4’

Stopped Flute 4’

Salicet 4’

Doublet 2’

Sesquialtera III

 

Trumpet 8’

Swell Clarinet 8’

Swell Oboe 8’

[Pierre Lauwers]

.....Or this:

 

MANUAL I

 

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason I 8'

Open Diapason II 8'

Stopped Diapason 8'

Hohlflöte 8'

Gamba 8'

Octave 4'

Mixtur 5r 2 2/3'-2'-1 3/5'-1 1/3'-1'

Trumpet 8' (Willis)

 

MANUAL II, expressive

 

Lieblich Gedackt 16'

Salicional 8'

Vox angelica 8'

Traversflöte 8' (round, wood)

Lieblich Gedackt 8' (ext 16')

Flûte octaviante 4'

Lieblich Flöte 4'

Octavin 2'

Cornet 2-3r 2'-1 3/5' , then 2 2/3'-2'- 1 3/5'

Horn 16' (Willis)

Cornopean 8' (Willis)

Clarion 4' (Willis)

 

MANUAL III, expressive

 

Contra Dulciana 16'

Dulciana 8' (ext)

Zauberflöte 8'

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Zauberflöte 4'

Dulciana 4'

Dulcet 2'

Harmonia aetherea 3r 2 2/3'-2'-1 3/5', Dolce pipes

Clarinette 8' (free reeds)

Physharmonica 8' (idem, with its own expression though variable wind pressure)

 

PEDAL

 

Contrebasse 16'

Soubasse 16' (I)

Lieblich Gedackt 16' (II)

Dulciana 16' (III)

Octave basse 8' (ext)

Violoncelle 8' (I, Gamba)

Stopped Diapason (I)

Bombardon 16'

Horn 16' (II)

Bombardon 8' (ext)

 

32 actual stops+ Pedal borrowings and extensions and two manual extensions).

[MusingMuso]

Try this......33 speaking stops and just about everything......if used carefully.

 

Why do I choose a Solo division in preference to a Positive or Choir organ?

 

You'll all have to think about this!

 

Pedal (8)

 

Open Wood 16

Subbass 16

Quint 10.2/3

Principal 8

Octave 4

Mixture IV (19.22.26.29)

Trombone 16

Schalmei 4

 

Great (9)

 

Double Diapason 16

Open Diapason 8

Rohrflute 8

Octave 4

Spitzflute 4

Superoctave 2

Sext II

12-17

Mixture IV

15-19-22

Sharp Mixture II

26-29

 

Swell (10)

 

 

Hohlflute 8

Salicional 8

Voix Celestes 8

Principal 4

Nason Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Full Mixture IV

12-15-19-22

Dulzian 16

English Trumpet 8

Oboe da Caccia 8

 

Solo (12)

 

Open Flute 8

Gamba 8

Octave 4

Rohrflute 4

Gross Tierce 3.1/5

Nazard 2.2/3

Recorder 2

Tierce 1.3/5

Clarionet (Free reed) 8

Vox Humana 8

 

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

 

 

 

Sw-Gt

So - Gt

Sw-So

 

So - Ped

Sw - Ped

Gt - Ped

 

Usual wobbly sounds and piston couplers.

 

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

MM, if you place the Grosse Tierce on the Solo, and the chorus reeds that

are absent on the Great, then it's actually two things: 1) an exported part of the Great;

2) an enclosed Positive.

(But a Solo it is not...)

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

MM, if you place the Grosse Tierce on the Solo, and the chorus reeds that

are absent on the Great, then it's actually two things: 1) an exported part of the Great;

2) an enclosed Positive.

(But a Solo it is not...)

 

Pierre

 

With a 16' Bourdon on the Solo to go with the 3-1/5 it would be more Solo or 'Resonance' perhaps.

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

With a 16' Bourdon on the Solo to go with the 3-1/5 it would be more Solo or 'Resonance' perhaps.

 

AJJ

 

The Solo= collection of non-blending solo stops, which would upset the others divisions;

 

The Raisonnance= Name gived by Jean-Esprit Isnard to a Bombarde Division (that is,

 

which includes the Bombarde) which is shared between one Manual and the Pedal.

 

 

The Grosse Tierce (3 1/5', also 16', by definition) always goes on the Grand-Orgue, in french classic organs,

and in german romantic organs (which are, as everybody (should?) know, much inflenced by the french classic organ)

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

The Solo= collection of non-blending solo stops, which would upset the others divisions;

 

The Raisonnance= Name gived by Jean-Esprit Isnard to a Bombarde Division (that is,

 

which includes the Bombarde) which is shared between one Manual and the Pedal.

The Grosse Tierce (3 1/5', also 16', by definition) always goes on the Grand-Orgue, in french classic organs,

and in german romantic organs (which are, as everybody (should?) know, much inflenced by the french classic organ)

 

Pierre

 

Nicely (and logically) put - my process of stoplist manipulation had wandered somewhat from the historically informed!

 

AJJ

 

PS Your description of the Solo sounds like one or two choirs I know too - especially the 'unblending' and 'upsetting' descriptions!

[Pierre Lauwers]

Yes AJJ,

 

Many a choir is actually a synthesis choir-Solo.

This may start as simply as this:

 

Dulciana 8'

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

Geigen Diapason 8'

Dulciana (as Principal) 4'

Zauberflöte 4'

Clarinet 8'

 

AND....

 

Tuba 8' (outside the box)

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

Yes AJJ,

 

Many a choir is actually a synthesis choir-Solo.

This may start as simply as this:

 

Dulciana 8'

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

Geigen Diapason 8'

Dulciana (as Principal) 4'

Zauberflöte 4'

Clarinet 8'

 

AND....

 

Tuba 8' (outside the box)

 

Pierre

 

And a modern interpretation near here has this:

 

Stopped Diapason 8

Salicional 8

Unda Maris 8

Gemshorn 4

Traverse Flute 4 (Harmonic)

Nazard 2-2/3 (Harmonic)

Piccolo 2 (Harmonic)

Tierce 1-5/5

Larigot 1-1/3

Cor Anglais 16

Trompette 8

Clarinet 8

Tremulant

Tuba Mirabilis (Unenclosed)

 

Some old pipework - some new but I think it works well (though some on here don't like the instrument) - especially when Manual 1 controls a quite 'up front' Positive division.

 

AJJ

[MusingMuso]

MM, if you place the Grosse Tierce on the Solo, and the chorus reeds that

are absent on the Great, then it's actually two things: 1) an exported part of the Great;

2) an enclosed Positive.

(But a Solo it is not...)

 

Pierre

 

 

=======================

 

 

Who said it was just a Solo division?

 

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

The Solo= collection of non-blending solo stops, which would upset the others divisions;

 

The Raisonnance= Name gived by Jean-Esprit Isnard to a Bombarde Division (that is,

 

which includes the Bombarde) which is shared between one Manual and the Pedal.

The Grosse Tierce (3 1/5', also 16', by definition) always goes on the Grand-Orgue, in french classic organs,

and in german romantic organs (which are, as everybody (should?) know, much inflenced by the french classic organ)

 

Pierre

 

 

==========================

 

 

1. Since when has a good Solo organ been a collection of non-blending stops?

 

2. "Raison d'etre" might be closer to the purpose of this "Solo" division, but perhaps you should be thinking in broader terms when using the dexcription "Solo"...........Solo what?

 

3. I don't care what the French do

 

 

 

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Yes AJJ,

 

Many a choir is actually a synthesis choir-Solo.

This may start as simply as this:

 

Dulciana 8'

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

Geigen Diapason 8'

Dulciana (as Principal) 4'

Zauberflöte 4'

Clarinet 8'

 

AND....

 

Tuba 8' (outside the box)

 

Pierre

 

================

 

 

No-one has got it yet, have they?

 

Look at the scheme devised by "moi" and you may see a Solo division, or perhaps an enclosed synthesis of Choir and Solo, but actually, it's a multiple purpose coupling and solo division. (With electric action, it would probably be a floating division, but we don't have floaters anymore).

 

This is how it works:-

 

Pedal (8)

 

Open Wood 16

Subbass 16

Quint 10.2/3

Principal 8

Octave 4

Mixture IV (19.22.26.29)

Trombone 16

Schalmei 4

 

 

Solo (12)

 

Open Flute 8

Gamba 8

Octave 4

Rohrflute 4

Gross Tierce 3.1/5

Nazard 2.2/3

Recorder 2

Tierce 1.3/5

Clarionet (Free reed) 8

Vox Humana 8

 

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

 

Note that the "Solo" has various solo voices; namely a flute Cornet, a full toned wide-scale 8ft Flute, a Gamba which would be stringy without frying bacon, a nice free-reed Clarionet, a Vox Humana for those baroque solo effects with Tremulant (and if one must, for French romantic music) and an 8ft and 4ft array of hearty "Hill" style reeds on modest pressure.

 

So much for the Solo effects, but if you look at the Pedal, the Solo is also an upwards extension of that division, and could be used as a coupler division to provide variety, strength and the 8ft and 4ft Trumpets which are invaluable on the Pedal.

The 3.1/5 is really part of the pedal, but could be coupled on the manuals for those ghastly Gallic moments.

 

As for the "Great" reeds being on the Solo, why does a Great organ need reeds at all? On a well-voiced Great, I would always choose, as first preference, a 16ft reed such as a Dulzian, and only then, (if funds permit) any 8ft reeds.

 

However, the Solo reeds could be perfectly well coupled through if required, to complement the Great chorus.

 

This isn't just a whim on my part, because at least one new organ (which I admire enormously) already has this sort of arrangement, and it is one of the best sounding organs I know.

 

Please note, no Tubas or brace of Tubas.........we don't do them anymore in the UK.

 

They were quite nasty things the first time around; so why repeat the error?

 

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

Well....

 

I won't argue -this would need some pages!- just some points:

 

-The idea to gather "non-blending" (whatever this may mean) stops

on the ancestor of the Solo Manual exists since Josef Gabler ("Farbwerk").

 

http://www.orgelbau-klais.com/m.php?tx=46

 

-Any organ needs a solid, gap-less structure. If the 3 1/5' is actually there

mainly for the Pedal, we have then a 32' Quint and a 16' Tierce.

 

-If we don't care what the others do, we shall run into slight problem's, don't we ?

(after all, the british organ was influenced by Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Belgium and Holland...)

 

-The error you mention is being carefully studied (abroad!) by those times.

(No one is a prophet in his own country:)

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

Well....

 

I won't argue -this would need some pages!- just some points:

 

-The idea to gather "non-blending" (whatever this may mean) stops

on the ancestor of the Solo Manual exists since Josef Gabler ("Farbwerk").

 

http://www.orgelbau-klais.com/m.php?tx=46

 

-Any organ needs a solid, gap-less structure. If the 3 1/5' is actually there

mainly for the Pedal, we have then a 32' Quint and a 16' Tierce.

 

-If we don't care what the others do, we shall run into slight problem's, don't we ?

(after all, the british organ was influenced by Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Belgium and Holland...)

 

-The error you mention is being carefully studied (abroad!) by those times.

(No one is a prophet in his own country:)

 

Pierre

 

 

====================

 

Well, Weingarten may be OK for Daquin and Haydn Clock Pieces, but it is generally regarded as underscaled, underpowered and underwhelming. I suppose it's worth keeping, just for the case, the history and the ivory Pifaro rank; but as an organ, it didn't lead anywhere did it?

 

Actually, I got it wrong when I suggested that the Gross Tierce belonged to the pedal. I should have said manual, but of course, as a colouring component in a pedal organ, a 3.1/5ft tierce is rather nice for an 8ft Cello type of bass.

 

As for the gapless bit, I think that if you take the Solo and Pedal stops together, there is no break in the harmonic structure, and if a 10.2/3 quint is done well, and the acoustic can fortify it, a true 32ft is not entirely necessary. However, if money was there for a stopped 32ft, then the Quint could be dispensed with. The two ideas are entirely interchangeable.

 

Wy do we run into problems if we don't copy what others do? Surely, that has always been your argument AGAINST the Euro-organ? In any event, what is so remarkable about Cavaille-Coll organs, which are rather coarse and lacking in good Principal tone? Some people are easily impressed by overpowerful reed basses and fiery chamades.

 

The English organ of to-day, may owe its origins to French and German models, but the end result is uniquely English.

 

You really do need to go to Blackburn Pierre. Without it, your education is incomplete, and on the way back to Belgium, you should take in the Kenneth Jones organ at Gt.St.Mary, Cambridge.

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

"as an organ, it didn't lead anywhere did it?"

(Quote)

 

Oh, just to the Frankfurt Paulskirche organ in 1833; besides this,

we dealed with Ochsenhausen, not Weingarten.

 

(I fully agree my education is incomplete! Who could doubt that?

we only may differ slightly about the british models; but this is

detail, of course).

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Yes AJJ,

 

Many a choir is actually a synthesis choir-Solo.

This may start as simply as this:

 

Dulciana 8'

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

Geigen Diapason 8'

Dulciana (as Principal) 4'

Zauberflöte 4'

Clarinet 8'

 

AND....

 

Tuba 8' (outside the box)

 

Pierre

 

I am not convinced that one would need to add a nasty honking Tuba to an organ for this chapel. This could be as bad as adding nasty 'Baroque' mixtures to the 'Willis' organ which is to be exported to Holland.

[pcnd5584]

.....Or this:

 

MANUAL I

 

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason I 8'

Open Diapason II 8'

Stopped Diapason 8'

Hohlflöte 8'

Gamba 8'

Octave 4'

Mixtur 5r 2 2/3'-2'-1 3/5'-1 1/3'-1'

Trumpet 8' (Willis)

 

MANUAL II, expressive

 

Lieblich Gedackt 16'

Salicional 8'

Vox angelica 8'

Traversflöte 8' (round, wood)

Lieblich Gedackt 8' (ext 16')

Flûte octaviante 4'

Lieblich Flöte 4'

Octavin 2'

Cornet 2-3r 2'-1 3/5' , then 2 2/3'-2'- 1 3/5'

Horn 16' (Willis)

Cornopean 8' (Willis)

Clarion 4' (Willis)

 

MANUAL III, expressive

 

Contra Dulciana 16'

Dulciana 8' (ext)

Zauberflöte 8'

Aeoline 8'

Voix céleste 8'

Zauberflöte 4'

Dulciana 4'

Dulcet 2'

Harmonia aetherea 3r 2 2/3'-2'-1 3/5', Dolce pipes

Clarinette 8' (free reeds)

Physharmonica 8' (idem, with its own expression though variable wind pressure)

 

PEDAL

 

Contrebasse 16'

Soubasse 16' (I)

Lieblich Gedackt 16' (II)

Dulciana 16' (III)

Octave basse 8' (ext)

Violoncelle 8' (I, Gamba)

Stopped Diapason (I)

Bombardon 16'

Horn 16' (II)

Bombardon 8' (ext)

 

32 actual stops+ Pedal borrowings and extensions and two manual extensions).

 

Pierre, on paper, there appears to ba a certain amount of duplication - in the sense of ranks which would tend to sound rather similar. Once again, the chorus structures are under-developed. I find a separate Fifteenth (2ft.) on the G.O. to be indispensible. In addition, there is no Oboe anywhere - this is such a useful timbre-creating stop, again, invaluable for accompaniment. Also, no Open Diapason on the second clavier - this is also a very useful stop, particularly when accompanying.

 

However much one may favour tierce mixtures, your scheme presents three fairly similar stops - which would, presumably, be voiced quietly. In this building, not to complete the choruses with separate 2ft. diapason-toned ranks and quint mixtures would be a mistake. These reedy quiet mixtures have limited use in both solo repertoire and accompanimental playing. Colour can be provided with mild (and moderately keen) strings and an Oboe, for example. However, the mixtures which you prescribe would seem to lack any useful purpose.