Mutation Ranks As A Structure

[Pierre Lauwers]

Yes MM,

 

The Aa-kerk organ is a gem, and I would not add

a Grossquintbass to it, never!

We talk here about something else, that is, mutation ranks

designed as a backbone to the tonal structure.

And it happens this commenced during Bach's time, in central

Germany.

We all have discovered the northern organ long before, we heard

Bach played on them, and we like it.

Of course I hope nobody will ever forbid to play Bach on them !

 

But the fact we "know and like" something should not prevent us

to learn more if an opportunity obtains.

The opportunity for us today, it is the rediscovery of the 18th century

central German organs, which are closer to Bach by far (even if Bach

also played northern organs, but as a pupil and a guest).

 

Our aim here is to discuss a tonal concept which does not exist in all organ styles.

You know I do not question the value of any organ style.

So it will fit here, and not there.

 

Is it "romantic" or "pre-romantic", then ?

As we know the inspiration came from the french Baroque mutations,

the answer isn't that simple !

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

... Take a look at the organ of the Royal Festival Hall of 1954 (admittedly not a strictly neo-baroque organ with tracker action), and you will find on the pedals the 10.2/3, 5.1/3 and a 2 rank Septerz of 1.3/5 and 1.1/7., and on the Great a 5.1/3 rank among other things. The hall may have lacked the acoustic to make this effective, but these ranks were there nontheless.

 

MM

 

Not quite - the Pedal Septerz at the RFH consists of 17-21, or 3 ¹/₅ and 2 ²/₇. It was originally to have been 6 ²/₅ and 4 ⁴/₇, but (possibly through lack of funds) was altered at a later date.

 

[pcnd5584]

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

There have been some comments by these times which could lend to believe

the roles and functions of mutation ranks, be them independent stops or part

of compound stops, might be sometimes one-sidedly understood.

 

In the baroque organ these stops have two roles: 1) to reinforce the tone,

2) to provide color (both may be aimed at by the same stops, or one family

of pipes for each, according to the regional styles)

 

With the neo-baroque organ we are still in the Post-romantic conception that sees

those stops as exotic, non-structural color-providers only; they are there to "produce

treble", brightness and color layed down on the rest. Whatever you draw with them,

you still hear them as a kind of Glockenspiel -with five breaks, no wonder the whole

organ seems reduced to one octave-.

 

An then there is the romantic concept, which is widely different, and based upon two important

theoretical sources:

 

1)- Dom Bédos descriptions of the french classic tonal design;

 

2)- The Abt Vogler theory about the resultant tones (rather a gathering of Tartini & Sorge ideas)

 

The french classic organ knows the deep mutation ranks in 5 1/3' and 3 1/5'; their aim wasn't structural,

they were there first for the color; but they went into the "Grand jeu" as well, providing, together with

the (always manual) Bombarde, dignity and grandeur. ...

 

 

Pierre

 

Pierre, I would be interested to see evidence for your statement regarding the use of mutations at 5 ¹/₃ and 3 ¹/₅ in a Grand Jeu. Dom Bédos states that for the Grand Jeu, one should employ the 'cornet, prestant and all the trompettes and clairons of the grand orgue'. A similar registration should be used on the Positif, which should be coupled to the Grand Orgue. In addition, he recommends that the Récit and Echo should have the cornets drawn. On the Pédale, one should draw the trompettes and clairons or use the tirasses. These directions for were corrected and approved by 'Calvière, Fouquet, Couperin and Balbastre and others'.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Dom Bedos Grand jeu is already a simplification towards something

that resembles the...Full Swell.

There are others forms, which include the "Jeu de tierce".

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Dom Bedos Grand jeu is already a simplification towards something

that resembles the...Full Swell.

There are others forms, which include the "Jeu de tierce".

 

Pierre

 

Hmmm.... I am not sure about that - but a very Happy Christmas to you, Pierre!

[Pierre Lauwers]

Hmmm.... I am not sure about that - but a very Happy Christmas to you, Pierre!

 

I am.

(But wait until Madame finishes her Christmas big affair, an I shall

quote some old books)

 

Pierre

[Ian Ball]

Not quite - the Pedal Septerz at the RFH consists of 17-21, or 3 ¹/₅ and 2 ²/₇. It was originally to have been 6 ²/₅ and 4 ⁴/₇, but (possibly through lack of funds) was altered at a later date.

 

Hehe and I can't resist this: hence our justification for their addition at Gloster!

[Ian Ball]

Pierre, I would be interested to see evidence for your statement regarding the use of mutations at 5 ¹/₃ and 3 ¹/₅ in a Grand Jeu. Dom Bédos states that for the Grand Jeu, one should employ the 'cornet, prestant and all the trompettes and clairons of the grand orgue'.

Aren't 5 ¹/₃ and 3 ¹/₅ part of the Cornet, albeit at 16' pitch? A Bourdon 16' is an optional part of the Grand Jeu, so why not the mutations in that series?

[Ian Ball]

Aren't 5 ¹/₃ and 3 ¹/₅ part of the Cornet, albeit at 16' pitch? A Bourdon 16' is an optional part of the Grand Jeu, so why not the mutations in that series?

Actually, I have a strong suspicion the French really couldn't care less. Naji Hakim was once extolling the beauty of the VII rank Sacré-Cœur Cornet: "SEVEN ranks?" I asked, as only an English organ bore could. "What are the pitches?" I enquired. "I have no idea!" came the response. "When you see a beautiful woman, you do not ask "what is it that makes her beautiful?" do you???" he replied, bored to the core.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The Cornet of the Solo Manual of the Basilique du Sacré-coeur, Montmartre (Paris)

has eight ranks: 16'- 8'- 5 1/3'- 4'- 3 1/5'- 4'- 2 2/3'- 2'- 1 3/5'.

 

Pierre

[Henry Willis]

The Cornet of the Solo Manual of the Basilique du Sacré-coeur, Montmartre (Paris)

has eight ranks: 16'- 8'- 5 1/3'- 4'- 3 1/5'- 4'- 2 2/3'- 2'- 1 3/5'.

 

Pierre

 

Just as you said - something resembling a full Swell! This is also a very similar idea to that of the "Grand Chorus" at Liverpool of course.

 

DW

[Guest Nigel ALLCOAT]

Actually, I have a strong suspicion the French really couldn't care less. Naji Hakim was once extolling the beauty of the VII rank Sacré-Cœur Cornet: "SEVEN ranks?" I asked, as only an English organ bore could. "What are the pitches?" I enquired. "I have no idea!" came the response. "When you see a beautiful woman, you do not ask "what is it that makes her beautiful?" do you???" he replied, bored to the core.

 

....nor of course would any connoisseur need to ask her vital statistics - all in the eye of the beholder, just as the composition of an organ and its ranks are in the ear of the player. It's often a hands-on experience - in both cases - to ascertain all. Not a paper description.

Best wishes,

N

[AJJ]

....nor of course would any connoisseur need to ask her vital statistics - all in the eye of the beholder, just as the composition of an organ and its ranks are in the ear of the player. It's often a hands-on experience - in both cases - to ascertain all. Not a paper description.

Best wishes,

N

 

....which is why when one plays somewhere like here one needs to throw away any preconceived ideas as to what an instrument like this should sound like and go with ones ears. Mostly in this case the rather nice acoustic of the church and the screen position of the organ look after most of the sonic oddities of stop derivation. And (back on topic) most of the mutations work if used with care!

 

AJJ

[gazman]

....which is why when one plays somewhere like here one needs to throw away any preconceived ideas as to what an instrument like this should sound like and go with ones ears. Mostly in this case the rather nice acoustic of the church and the screen position of the organ look after most of the sonic oddities of stop derivation. And (back on topic) most of the mutations work if used with care!

 

AJJ

What does the tuning of the mutations sound like on this instrument, Alastair, considering that they're derived from unison ranks?

[AJJ]

What does the tuning of the mutations sound like on this instrument, Alastair, considering that they're derived from unison ranks?

 

Not totally ideal but with a little bit of experimentation with stop combinations it can sound ok - the whole thing sounds best with as few stops in use as is necessary - flat out it is rather nasty. Verse anthems work nicely, small scale repertoire etc. - hymns fair quite well too. The acoustic is lovely and the whole thing is unenclosed on the rood screen so it looks quite passable from the church - the console is a bit tacky being the old electronic recycled.

 

AJJ

[gazman]

Thanks Alastair!

[Pierre Lauwers]

The Grand-jeu emerged originally from the "Weitchor-Engchor" notion,

which originated in the Brabanter Renaissance organ:

 

-Engchor: Principals from 16' (or 8') to Mixture, as a reconstitution of the medieval Blockwerk

 

-Weitchor: all those new stops from the Renaissance period: Stopped Flutes, Flutes, Cornets, and....Quintatöns and Gambas.

 

The french Grand-jeu is formed with the Weitchor + the reed stops, as we know them in France...TATATAAAA!!!

 

In the course of time, the Grand-jeu will become leaner, since people realised there was no need to add

the Bourdons 16' and 8' (wind expanse!), while the reeds became more and more powerfull (with 16' Bombarde,

second Trumpet on the Great or the Bombarde manual...). So that towards the end of the 18th century, Dom Bedos

could write: reeds and Cornets only.

But this was during Balbastre's times, not Couperin's.....

 

The english Full Swell is a kind of this lean Grand jeu enclosed in a Swellbox.

 

There might be several origins to the Full-Swell:

 

1)- The french Grand-jeu;

 

2) the chorus reed voicing of Cavaillé-Coll;

 

3)- The baroque english Sesquialtera and Cornet.

 

If we mix those influencies like the Plum pudding ingredients, we end up with something with a taste of the real thing

before even we pour the Brandy on it...

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

There might be several origins to the Full-Swell:

 

1)- The french Grand-jeu;

 

2) the chorus reed voicing of Cavaillé-Coll;

 

3)- The baroque english Sesquialtera and Cornet.

 

If we mix those influencies like the Plum pudding ingredients, we end up with something with a taste of the real thing

before even we pour the Brandy on it...

 

Pierre

 

=============================

 

 

Try Romania!

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

=============================

Try Romania!

 

MM

 

Awer watt bedeitet datt ? Isse datt een Alkohol ?

 

Peter

[MusingMuso]

Awer watt bedeitet datt ? Isse datt een Alkohol ?

 

Peter

 

 

=======================

 

No, I'm not under the influence!

 

Part of the answer really is to be found in Romania, and it pre-dates Cavaille-Coll, but I shall have to have a dig through my notes to find the details.

 

Watch this space! (As they say)

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

=======================

 

No, I'm not under the influence!

 

Part of the answer really is to be found in Romania, and it pre-dates Cavaille-Coll, but I shall have to have a dig through my notes to find the details.

 

Watch this space! (As they say)

 

MM

 

Something like that maybe ?

 

http://www.hog-kronstadt.de/orgel.html

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

Something like that maybe ?

 

http://www.hog-kronstadt.de/orgel.html

 

Pierre

 

 

========================

 

Yes, that's the one, but I wish you could have found a specification which could atually be READ.

 

That's why I was hanging back, until I could find a stop-list which might make sense.

 

However, there are two complete reed choruses enclosed in Swell boxes.........the date, 1839.

 

The builder, Buckholz, was German (Berlin) of course, and the father of the romantic German organ.

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

Much better:

 

http://www.honterusgemeinde.ro/html/cultur...1&language=

 

First german romantic builder ? Well, then many 18th century

german builders are....

Buchholz simply followed the Joachim Wagner tradition, like Loret in Belgium!

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Aren't 5 ¹/₃ and 3 ¹/₅ part of the Cornet, albeit at 16' pitch? A Bourdon 16' is an optional part of the Grand Jeu, so why not the mutations in that series?

 

And I cannot resist this: a Cornet 'of 16ft' would contain these pitches - a Cornet of 8ft. would not, Ian. Regarding your previous post, N.-D. also had these pitches. DJB spent a lot of time talking about this organ - I have no recollection of him ever mentioning the H&H/Downes instrument at the RFH!

 

Anyway, as you observe, beauty is in the eye of a beholder, true. Yet there are many of us who are interested in what is 'under the bonnet', as it were - in either sense.

[Ian Ball]

And I cannot resist this: a Cornet 'of 16ft' would contain these pitches - a Cornet of 8ft. would not, Ian.

Indeed - this I've known since I began learning that repertoire as a sixth former. It's perfectly acceptable to include a 16' Bourdon and associated cornet décomposé ranks in a Grand Jeu, depending on context, style and the performer's bon goût.

Regarding your previous post, N.-D. also had these pitches. DJB spent a lot of time talking about this organ - I have no recollection of him ever mentioning the H&H/Downes instrument at the RFH!

With respect Sean (and I don't intend this as one-upmanship) I worked with David every day for four years and he certainly did consider, at the planning stage, what Downes might have made of the additions and used the RFH pedal mutations (inter alia) as justification. Of course N-D is a huge influnce on DJB, and Vierne's "muster of double basses" is exactly what we felt the organ needed, but David's not quite as blinkered as some people think, as you know yourself.

Anyway, as you observe, beauty is in the eye of a beholder, true. Yet there are many of us who are interested in what is 'under the bonnet', as it were - in either sense.

My fiancée will gladly confirm my healthy interest in both