Bach: Which Are "harder" ?...

[biggestelk]

I've always had a soft spot for the 540 fugue. I think I'm right in saying it's one of Bach's few double fugues? Please correct me if I'm wrong! I love the way the 2 distinct rhythmic phrases come together at the end with the pedal bouncing the 2nd subject against the first more sedate chromatic one. I also like it taken at a pace which allows you to hear what's going on and not just rattled off as quick as possible as it is so long....

Just my thoughts,

Oliver.

[Davidb]

My personal though Oliver is that much Bach is played too quickly. A semiquaver does not have to be played quickly, and the best performances, to me, have always been slower ones that find beauty in each note

[andyorgan]

Personally I think the fugue is easily as hard as 532. The Fantasia is a bit of a doddle though. But then, so is the D major prelude once you have negotiated the opening scale. The real difficulty with that prelude is how to make it sound interesting. I certainly can't do it and I've never heard anyone else manage it yet either.

 

I once heard of a recital by G D Cunningham - at the RAH, I think - which began with the D major. At the appointed hour, he suddenly ran into the hall and up the steps, lept onto the organ bench and without hesitation immediately dashed off the opening pedal scale. Quite a showman, by all accounts.

 

Isn't there another famous story about this piece? I'm sure I heard a tale about a very famous cathedral organist who played it at the end of a choral evensong on radio 3. It was in the days when cathedrals would do the live one and then a recorded one, either the day before or after. The story goes that said organist made an absolute hash of the pedal entry and got off the bench, shouted over the screen, 'we can edit that out can't we?' thinking it was the recorded version, when it was actually the live service. Can anyone confirm this, or is it another apocyraphal one?

[contrabordun]

I've always had a soft spot for the 540 fugue. [...]I love the way the 2 distinct rhythmic phrases come together at the end with the pedal bouncing the 2nd subject against the first more sedate chromatic one.

Agree totally. I've never learnt the Toccata (will get around to it one day but I just don't find it that interesting) but I love the Fugue and probably wouldn't play them together anyway. I think the T overpowers the F.

[gazman]

Isn't there another famous story about this piece? I'm sure I heard a tale about a very famous cathedral organist who played it at the end of a choral evensong on radio 3. It was in the days when cathedrals would do the live one and then a recorded one, either the day before or after. The story goes that said organist made an absolute hash of the pedal entry and got off the bench, shouted over the screen, 'we can edit that out can't we?' thinking it was the recorded version, when it was actually the live service. Can anyone confirm this, or is it another apocyraphal one?

 

Why, though, would they do a live one AND a recorded one? Or am I missing something? (the latter's quite likely!)

[Guest Barry Williams]

Personally I think the fugue is easily as hard as 532. The Fantasia is a bit of a doddle though. But then, so is the D major prelude once you have negotiated the opening scale. The real difficulty with that prelude is how to make it sound interesting. I certainly can't do it and I've never heard anyone else manage it yet either.

 

I once heard of a recital by G D Cunningham - at the RAH, I think - which began with the D major. At the appointed hour, he suddenly ran into the hall and up the steps, lept onto the organ bench and without hesitation immediately dashed off the opening pedal scale. Quite a showman, by all accounts.

 

Odile Pierre did that at the Fairfield Hall many years ago, playing from memory and in quite high heels, which made it spectacular. It was, of course, note perfect and thoroughly musical.

 

Barry Williams

[Vox Humana]

My personal though Oliver is that much Bach is played too quickly. A semiquaver does not have to be played quickly, and the best performances, to me, have always been slower ones that find beauty in each note

My Bach speeds tend to vary depending on factors like the organ, the acoustic, the position in the programe (if a recital) and, often, just pure whim. One day I might be in a nifty mood, on another a more sedate one. But on the whole I prefer my Bach on the serious side; I don't hold with those who see every piece in terms of a dance. And the older I get the more I prefer slower speeds - for most pieces, though not all.

 

My teacher once observed that the shorter the note values Bach uses the slower the music is to be played. While I think once has to take that with a large pinch of salt, there is undoubtedly something in it. Thus an arabesque piece with lots of demisemiquavers like O Mensch bewein is to be played adagio, but the alla breve pieces are notated with the minim as the basic unit and are to be approached in much the same way as you would approach a piece of Renaissance counterpoint (i.e. not getting too hung up about the apparently long note values). I find that it can help to mentally halve the note values of alla breve pieces. Indeed one source of the fugue of the A major P & F (not actually alla breve since it's in 3/4 time) does halve the note values. You will gather from this that I play the BWV 540 fugue fairly fast. I find that it gives a wonderful increase in tension right to the very end. Also, I think it helps to minimise the effect of anticlimax after the toccata (as noted by contrabordun). At a sedate speed I always used to find the piece interminable and tedious; however I am genuinely delighted to hear that there are those who prefer it this way. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

[Guest Cynic]

 

Why, though, would they do a live one AND a recorded one? Or am I missing something? (the latter's quite likely!)

 

 

 

This represented a major saving in BBC engineers' setting-up costs.

Back-to-back Songs of Praise programmes have been made in a similar way.

 

If I've remembered this correctly: on one famous occasion a Christmas Songs of Praise was recorded mid-year in Southwell Minster and the flower ladies had to rush round putting up Christmas decorations to suit the BBC between the two recording sessions.

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

 

Why, though, would they do a live one AND a recorded one? Or am I missing something? (the latter's quite likely!)

 

There was a period - some time ago - when Radio 3 would air a live Evensong on Wednesday and a recorded one on Friday. If I'm not mistaken, this came after the period when Evensong was on Radio 4.

 

Completely off the point of the thread - have you noticed how much more difficult it is to get at the Listen Again for Choral Evensong, when it used to sit there on R3's front page.

[Graham Powell]

at the risk of venturing off topic, but does anyone have former organ AB-lists they would care to share (esp G6-8)

 

just out of curiosity at how the syllabus' have changed, and if they have gotten harder/easier

 

I can't remember much of it, but amongst others, the AB Grade 8 syllabus of 1980 had the following listed - Bach: Prelude in C BWV547 (not the fugue), 1st movement of Trio Sonata No.1 in E flat BWV525, Chorale Prelude "Ach bleib bei uns, Herr Jesu Christ" BWV649, Flor Peeters "Uns ist geboren ein Kindelein" from 10 chorale preludes Op.39, Pierne "Cantilene" (From Trois Pieces), Gigout Toccata in B minor, Milhaud Prelude for organ.

 

Graham

[Paul Walton]

Isn't there another famous story about this piece? I'm sure I heard a tale about a very famous cathedral organist who played it at the end of a choral evensong on radio 3. It was in the days when cathedrals would do the live one and then a recorded one, either the day before or after. The story goes that said organist made an absolute hash of the pedal entry and got off the bench, shouted over the screen, 'we can edit that out can't we?' thinking it was the recorded version, when it was actually the live service. Can anyone confirm this, or is it another apocyraphal one?

 

This is probably the Bach chorale prelude (Heut triumphiret from the Orgelbuchlein) from, I think, Lincoln. The first pedal note was wrong, so he got off the bench, said 'wrong pedal note, I'll start again, can you edit that?' It was the pre-recorded and not the live one, but as it was recorded straight through as if live, no-one edited it!

There is a tape with this and other gems from (mostly) live broadcasts of which some copies still float around. Somewhere I have one!

 

Paul Walton

Assistant Organist, Bristol Cathedral

[Peter Clark]

This is probably the Bach chorale prelude (Heut triumphiret from the Orgelbuchlein) from, I think, Lincoln. The first pedal note was wrong, so he got off the bench, said 'wrong pedal note, I'll start again, can you edit that?' It was the pre-recorded and not the live one, but as it was recorded straight through as if live, no-one edited it!

There is a tape with this and other gems from (mostly) live broadcasts of which some copies still float around. Somewhere I have one!

 

Paul Walton

Assistant Organist, Bristol Cathedral

 

 

And now, Paul, I'm sure you'll be swamped with requests for copies - can I put myself at the top of the list?

 

 

Peter

[Nick Bennett]

A friend of mine has sung bass in the choir at Blackburn cathedral since Adam were a lad, and recalls one of these back-to-back sessions. They did the live broadcast first, then retired for a cuppa before recording another evensong to be broadcast in the Christmas season. When they processed in, with the red light on, they found that the vergers had changed the hangings from green to gold without telling anybody.

 

If I may digress, Peter also tells a tale about the recent organ rebuild when a toaster was in use. One of the speakers was immediately behind the choir stalls and perhaps a little overpowering. The high court judge who also sings bass in the choir turned to Peter and said "I can feel my testicles vibrating - are yours?".

[abennett]

at the risk of venturing off topic, but does anyone have former organ AB-lists they would care to share (esp G6-8)

 

just out of curiosity at how the syllabus' have changed, and if they have gotten harder/easier

 

I was discussing this the other day. A friend of mine said that he did the Prelude in C Major BWV 545 (not with fugue) for Grade 5 Organ. Now surely that would never be on the lists now, perhaps it would be grade 8?

 

Andy