Jump to content
Mander Organ Builders Forum

O Come Or Once In Royal


Peter Clark

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On a side-note, if one has to have Once in royal David's city, then I much prefer the Cleobury descant to the Willcocks, which I have always regarded as somewhat weak, repetitive and four-square.

Oh, no, no and thrice no! How can you possibly prefer that flowery, aimless waffle? It's a hymn for Pete's sake, not a fugue! It might be fun to sing - I wouldn't know - but in the great aural scheme of things I don't think it lends any dignity to anything. If you must indulge in descants, simple, direct ones are always far more effective. Willcock's descant to this hymn is about as contrapuntal as one can get without it all beginning to sound rather pretentious and silly. All IMO, of course.

 

Incidentally, am I the only one to have problems with the chorus of this hymn? You know the tradition: upper voices p, SAT mf, all fff? I find this just too weak for words and I don't think it does anything to encourage the congregation either, so I always get the altos and tenors to sing the small notes and tell everyone to keep the dynamics up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Stanley Monkhouse

how about O Come O Come Emmanuel to open Midnight Mass

 

Yes I like that, and it works for carol services too. And also Thou whose almighty word chaos and darkness heard .. etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Barry Williams
A radical, even wayward suggestion: how about O Come O Come Emmanuel to open Midnight Mass given that Jesus' birth is not proclaimed until the gospel? (This might mean restoring the Gloria to its former place after the Communion.)

Peter

 

The Gloria should always be after Communion. That position accords with Scripture as well as giving a far better musical and liturgical balance to the service.

 

Barry Williams

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Gloria should always be after Communion. That position accords with Scripture as well as giving a far better musical and liturgical balance to the service.

 

Barry Williams

Hmm. Not sure everyone would agree about the balance bit. To my mind it removes the focus from the communion, though I can understand how others might find it a fitting culmination. What is the scriptural authority?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Barry Williams
Hmm. Not sure everyone would agree about the balance bit. To my mind it removes the focus from the communion, though I can understand how others might find it a fitting culmination. What is the scriptural authority?

 

"And when they had sung an hymn..."

 

The huge advantage, indeed the overwhelming aspect of the 1662 Holy Communion, is that there is no 'theology' between hearing the words of consecration and receiving Communion*. Thereafter follows thanksgiving and praise, thus giving the Gloria its rightful place.

 

Barry Williams

 

* There is just an Amen which Stainer set Sevenfold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"And when they had sung an hymn..."

OK - though, as I am sure you would concede, there is no intrinsic reason why this has to be the Gloria in excelsis.

 

The huge advantage, indeed the overwhelming aspect of the 1662 Holy Communion, is that there is no 'theology' between hearing the words of consecration and receiving Communion.

Yes, a good point. Very protestant and direct and I can see the appeal. However, those of a more high church persuasion might prefer to value the more leisurely, "savour the moment" approach of the 1549 liturgy which, as it were, brings you into the presence and holds you there before delivering the sacrament.

 

Thereafter follows thanksgiving and praise, thus giving the Gloria its rightful place.

Hmm. Rightful? As I understand it the Gloria in excelsis was from at least the fourth century, and possibly since the second, a Matins hymn before the Romans ever incorporated it into the mass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Barry Williams

Almost certainly, 'When they had sung an hymn' referred to at least part of the Great Hallel. The Gloria is, as you point out. very much later. Nowadays some churches use a paraphrase of the Gloria. Charles Wesley wrote a good one and another version is sung to Beethoven 9. suitably mangled and simplified for congregational performance. More recent versions go to Cwm Ronda and other popular tunes.

 

The accretions of centuries of tradition were stripped away by Cranmer in 1552 (which became 1662.) His Communion Service is almost exclusively built up from quotations of Holy Scripture. (See H I Bailey's anaysis of the service, and of Morning and Evening Prayer.) No Anglican Liturgy has as much Holy Scripture in it as 1662/1552

 

The issue of the 1549 order (which is quite different from 'the mass') is the interposition of church theology that has no rightful place in the service. Having said that, 1549 has the intercessions in the middle of the Prayer of Consecration (to make the prayers sacramental), which seems a strange place to have the prayers nowadays. Common Worship, Rite A and Series 3 were new inventions and in no way 'recovered early church practice', despite what some clergy told their congregations.

 

Barry Williams

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well of course the whole precept of the sixteenth-century English reformation was to strip away non-biblical accretions from the church services and 1552/1662 certainly does that. 1549 was only ever seen by the protestant faction as a stop-gap - an unsatisfactory compromise. I certainly would not wish to hold it up as an ideal (even less the Sarum liturgy, which really does go on a bit at this point), though I do think it more satisfying than the liturgy that replaced it with its overtly medieval emphasis on the overwhelmingly miserable condition of mankind. As I have said before, the liturgy I find most satisfying is actually the old "series 2" - and that's not because I was brought up on it, 'cause I wasn't - at least not initially.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Barry Williams

I think that your views are probably shared by many. Certainly, there was far less unfavourable reaction to Series 2 than to the ill-fated Series 3, with its invention of liturgical 'new-speak'. Although provision was made from the very beginning to use 'well-known' settings of the Prayer Book words, this was rarely if ever done, with often unhappy results. It marked a change from which the Church of England has never quite recovered.

 

I cannot help but feel that it also marked a change in attitude towards organists, but perhaps that is a matter for another thread.

 

Barry Williams

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, no, no and thrice no! How can you possibly prefer that flowery, aimless waffle? It's a hymn for Pete's sake, not a fugue! It might be fun to sing - I wouldn't know - but in the great aural scheme of things I don't think it lends any dignity to anything. If you must indulge in descants, simple, direct ones are always far more effective. Willcock's descant to this hymn is about as contrapuntal as one can get without it all beginning to sound rather pretentious and silly. All IMO, of course.

 

Actually, I could not disagree with you more, Vox. The Willcocks is dreary and repetitive. I find nothing either flowery or aimless in the Cleobury - which seems to me to have a far better melodic shape and actually goes somewhere; for the record, as far as I can remember, it is not particularly contrapuntal. You are welcome to the Willcocks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, each to his own, as they say. I disagree that the Willcocks is repetitive in the perjorative sense. It is true that the opening sequence is repeated in a different key at mid-verse, but that's formal structure rather than repetition. A good few descants would be better off for a bit more organisation and less waffle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, agreed that it doesn't suffer "excess waffle", Vox. The "simplicity" of the descant perfectly matches the carol. And I don't mean simplicity in any derogative sense. I find it well-crafted, the climax is perfectly matched, and I find the descant totally suitable. However, in my ignorance, I don't know the Cleobury descant. Mental note to self: be sure to listen carefully to that part of the broadcast from Kings!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Sean, I'm in the 'against' camp. The Willcocks just smells of Christmas from beginning to end and I love the harmonisation.

 

There are a couple of alterations which can usefully be made to Hark the Herald however; on the line "light of life to all he brings", on the word "life", putting an F# in the pedal and C# E in the RH fits very well, then B major on "to" and back to normal. Also, on "HTH angels sing" it's fun to stop the descant part on the C, have a breath, and then tie a crotchet top A over to the next bar. Yum!

 

Have you been into Wimborne Abbey (sic) yet? Left a pressie for you...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hells bells! Never try to hold an online discussion when you're trying to do something else at the same time! :) Somewhere along the line I switched to Sing choirs of angels! I therefore take back what I said about sequences. The rest stands. In spades. Except that I'll agree that the Willcocks, while passable, is not one of his finest. I shall now go and bang my head against the wall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, on "HTH angels sing" it's fun to stop the descant part on the C, have a breath, and then tie a crotchet top A over to the next bar. Yum!

But, if you must have fun with this, wouldn't it be better to hold the C for a minim, and then to go on to the next phrase without a breath to keep the meaning of the words? Or to come in with the A on beat 4, and have a syncopated effect on "Glory..."?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But, if you must have fun with this, wouldn't it be better to hold the C for a minim, and then to go on to the next phrase without a breath to keep the meaning of the words?

You edited your reply, David, whilst I was writing mine! Yes, very effective to come in with the syncopated note (the high A) a beat before the first beat of the bar. I think this would be most effective. I might try it next year....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Sean, I'm in the 'against' camp. The Willcocks just smells of Christmas from beginning to end and I love the harmonisation.

 

Each to his own - but the Willcocks still smells of boredom to me. However, I think that I can probably persuade my boss to try the Cleobury next year, because none of us like the Willcocks, here! :)

 

 

Have you been into Wimborne Abbey (sic) yet? Left a pressie for you...

 

Have I been into Wimborne 'Abbey'? Um.... once or twice - such as last night (until around 23h15), practising voluntaries for Mass this morning and the carol service tonight. (Yawn.)

 

I found the present - thank you. I am sorry - it did not even occur to me to leave a reciprocal present - I was too traumatised by the knowledge that, not only did I have a full day at school on the Thursday, but I also had to be there on Friday 21st, too. It is, however, a good excuse to meet up in the next few days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

how about O Come O Come Emmanuel to open Midnight Mass

 

Yes I like that, and it works for carol services too. And also Thou whose almighty word chaos and darkness heard .. etc.

 

Hi

 

I've used "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" as the first item in carol services a few times. It works well.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A radical, even wayward suggestion: how about O Come O Come Emmanuel to open Midnight Mass given that Jesus' birth is not proclaimed until the gospel? (This might mean restoring the Gloria to its former place after the Communion.)

Peter

Hmm... The hymn O come, O come is a paraphrase of the Advent antiphons, and for me, it seems to sit more happily in an Advent carol service, or else in the seven (or so) days up to and including 23 December. Interesting idea though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm... The hymn O come, O come is a paraphrase of the Advent antiphons, and for me, it seems to sit more happily in an Advent carol service, or else in the seven (or so) days up to and including 23 December. Interesting idea though.

 

Hi

 

Most carol services ARE during Advent!

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...