AJJ Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I like this one!Interesting ideas. As to have the organ in two swellboxes, Great included, this is considered a good enough idea by Schoenstein. Of course this is bound to dedicate acoustic conditions, as Mr Johnston says. Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Schoenstein would probably have put the Tromba rank and Ophicleide in another swell box inside one of the other two together with a couple of quiet strings/celestes.'Not sure whether we are ready for that sort of indulgence here in the UK yet!! AJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I don't usually dabble in stop-lists, as they serve no purpose whatsoever, but as I have been challenged to come up with an enlightened design, I'll give it a whirl. Oddly enough, there are two instruments which have always inspired me as Anglican organs. One is a modest two-manual by Abbott & Smith, with comparatively rare tracker-action for the period, and the other was built by Isaac Abbott some years earlier; again with tracker action and a modest scheme spread across three-manuals. Isaac Abbot had worked with Hill, and although his choruses were definitely more substantial, the influence of Hill is very apparent. Acoutsically, the Isaac Abbot organ is what we are aiming for...robust, not-overblown, warm in sound and speaking into about a 1 sec reverberation from the Chancel. In fact, as there are almost no Isaac Abbott organs left in the UK, the style is actually quite similar to what Harrison & Harrison were doing before George Dixon loused it all up. So with that in mind, I'll propose something which might actually work for accompaniment and at least SOME of the repertoire. Swell Contra Gamba 16 (Bottom 12 notes unenclosed) Hohl Flute 8 Gamba 8 Voix Celeste 8 Principal 4 Ocarina 4 Fifteenth 2 Recorder 2 Sext (12:17) 2 rks Mixture 4 rks (19:22:26:29) Dulzian 16 Trumpet 8 Oboe da Caccia 8 Great Quintaton 16 Open Diapason 8 Gemshorn 8 Rohrflute 8 Octave 4 Spindle Flute 4 Twelfth 2.2/3 Fifteenth 2 Terz 1.3/5 Mixture 4 rks (19:22:26:29) Tertian 2 rks (24:26) Cromorne 8 Trumpet 8 (Stolen from my local PC, voiced by Rundle Jnr.) Pedal Open Diapason 16 (Wood) Gamba 16 (Bottom 12 from Sw, rest 8ft) Bourdon 16 (Ext) Violoncello 8 (Ext) Flute Bass 8 (Ext) Fifteenth 4 (Unit) Nachthorn 4 (Unit) Mixture 4 rks (Unisons Ext.from 4ft Fifteenth, Quints ext.from Nachthorn) (19:22:26:29) Trombone 16 (Ext) Trumpet 8 (Ext) Rohr Schalmey 4 ALL MIXTURES TO BE VOICED IN THE STYLE OF F C SCHNITGER, NOT HIS DAD!! (In other words, dull and gentle) Of course, mechanical key action, and a fully independent pedal would be nice, but expensive. The derived Pedal Mixture is a delete option, but John Compton could do miracles, and the derivations would not be noticed in contrapuntal music. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 This is very interesting! I particularly like the Pedal design, Mixture included. This leaves us with taste matters -well, you did begin - I find it slightly sad to use baroque german Schnarrwerk (a name that pronounce like the thing itself) in an english Swell. A 4' reed would be useful there, too. The Great 8' flue ensemble will lack crispness and clarity without a not too gentle 8' Gamba. Why two "baroque", high pitched mixtures on the Great? They will clash against the unisson stops. A Rohrschalmey on the Pedal? well... This is of course all taste matters; the design itself I have nothing against on "serious" grounds. Maybe the B&W are particularly good with Dulcianas? I never did consider and shall never consider any other loudspeakers than english ones. Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 This is very interesting! I particularly like the Pedal design, Mixture included. I find it slightly sad to use baroque german Schnarrwerk (a name that pronounce like the thing itself) in an english Swell. A 4' reed would be useful there, too. The Great 8' flue ensemble will lack crispness and clarity without a not too gentle 8' Gamba. Why two "baroque", high pitched mixtures on the Great? They will clash against the unisson stops. A Rohrschalmey on the Pedal? well... This is of course all taste matters; the design itself I have nothing against on "serious" grounds. ============== I could never stipulate German "snarl-werk" in an Anglican situation. I had in mind the very much more musical examples I have encountered in Holland, and one which is on an organ local to me, which sounds wonderful in almost a dry acoustic. A 4ft Clarion on the Swell would be nice....donors welcome! I tend to disagree about a Great Gambe. A gemshorn would be almost as good, but I wouldn't argue with a substitute Gamba. I disagree about the "high pitched" Mixtures. The breaks could be quite progressive, and this is exactly why I stipulated F C Schnitger type voicing....very gentle indeed, as at Alkmaar, and very well known in England in the derived upperwork of John Compton, which could often be extreely "acute" in pitch. Rohrschalmey? Well, I wanted to make the distinction from those snorting little German examples I've heard. Call it something else if you wish! MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 No problem! Any further discussion should happen in a workshop round a voicing chest, so theoretical are the names. I like Alkmaar's mixtures very much (before and after the restoration), but...In a Schnitger organ, where the foundation stops are what they are. Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBarker77 Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 See my proposition again, then.Adding "sparkle" to the Diapason chorus might be less effective than a Trumpet and a second mixture with Tierce rank, as long as accompaniment is concerned. You could for instance add some ranks to the existing 2r mixture, and then add a two-rank Sesquialtera; this could be used in detail registrations as well as a bridge between the Diapason chorus and the Trumpet. A Pedal soft 16' could be obtained by borrowing a new stropped Diapason 16' in the Great. The 8' Violone for the Pedal I believe would be a good idea, ditto the 16'extension of the Great's Trumpet. And yes, keep that Dulciana! Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ooooo yes! I like the idea of a Sesquialtera on the Great which could be used with the 8' and 4' flutes (and it could be put on the existing 2 rank mixture chest that is aready there) Of course, all we need for all these good ideas is space and money! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I like Alkmaar's mixtures very much (before and after the restoration), but...In a Schnitger organ, where the foundation stops are what they are. =================== Aha! You mean the old Hagabeer ones! MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Ooooo yes! I like the idea of a Sesquialtera on the Great which could be used with the 8' and 4' flutes (and it could be put on the existing 2 rank mixture chest that is aready there) Of course, all we need for all these good ideas is space and money! Steve <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A sesquialtera, be it german, flemish or british, is made of Diapason pipes, tough. It is a part of the Diapason chorus. But this does not mean it cannot be made to go reasonably well with the flutes too, provided they aren't too dull in tone. In the flemish organ it's used for bell-like effects say with a 8' Bourdon, or added to the Diapason chorus in order to have a Tierce-mixture, or to bring the Diapason chorus and the reeds togheter. This is indeed the big difference between french and flemish organs (the first being a child of the second!); the french organ ignores the chorus Tierce, and is therefore an instrument divided in two parts you cannot mix (Plein-jeu and Grand jeu). The flemish Sesquialter is 2 2/3'-1 3/5' in the treble only, because it has breaks like a mixture. So it's far more close to a mixture than to a Cornet. In british romantic organs there are Sesquialters with breaks too, and with more ranks (according to Audsley, up to seven). In the baroque english organs I do not know -I never met with one!- Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roffensis Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 A sesquialtera, be it german, flemish or british, is made of Diapason pipes, tough.It is a part of the Diapason chorus. But this does not mean it cannot be made to go reasonably well with the flutes too, provided they aren't too dull in tone. In the flemish organ it's used for bell-like effects say with a 8' Bourdon, or added to the Diapason chorus in order to have a Tierce-mixture, or to bring the Diapason chorus and the reeds togheter. This is indeed the big difference between french and flemish organs (the first being a child of the second!); the french organ ignores the chorus Tierce, and is therefore an instrument divided in two parts you cannot mix (Plein-jeu and Grand jeu). The flemish Sesquialter is 2 2/3'-1 3/5' in the treble only, because it has breaks like a mixture. So it's far more close to a mixture than to a Cornet. In british romantic organs there are Sesquialters with breaks too, and with more ranks (according to Audsley, up to seven). In the baroque english organs I do not know -I never met with one!- Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yo see all this arguing about pipes, have you considered speakers? as an example, a revoiced 15" Celestion as a 4" Mission can give the impression of an organ when one is not actually there. Hehehe!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Yo see all this arguing about pipes, have you considered speakers? as an example, a revoiced 15" Celestion as a 4" Mission can give the impression of an organ when one is not actually there. Hehehe!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All right, Roffensis, but with what kind of input, then? Pierre Lauwers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted August 5, 2005 Author Share Posted August 5, 2005 Yo see all this arguing about pipes, have you considered speakers? as an example, a revoiced 15" Celestion as a 4" Mission can give the impression of an organ when one is not actually there. Hehehe!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> BLEAH!!! May you be forgiven.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roffensis Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 BLEAH!!!May you be forgiven.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The input should be sampled from the sampled organ in St Agnes Liverpool that was sampled from various pipe organs of the finest magnitude. Really, with all this DNA technology, it should be possible to actually recreate a lost organ stop with just a memory cell from a living or deceased person. Think test tube organ pipes and you've got it. These could then put in a organ sperm bank, called for clarity say, a Spermapiporium, and it could be used solely for the enhancement of the digital organ world. What imput? oh!! a NAD 20 watts per channel (soft clipping of course) will do I think?? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Really, with all this DNA technology, it should be possible to actually recreate a lost organ stop with just a memory cell from a living or deceased person. Well, I'd better hide this sentence for my wife. With the some fairly good organs I heard, she could put my brain on E-Bay at a not too bad price. Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I'd better hide this sentence for my wife. With the some fairly good organs I heard,she could put my brain on E-Bay at a not too bad price. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ================== What an interesting idea....the human-brain as digital recorder/sampler! Are you SURE Pierre, that you can remember what every organ you have ever heard, sounds like? Do you just THINK you can? After all, we recognise the colour of roses, but we think and dream in black & white. Then again, we hear Choral Evensong on Radio 3, and screech, "That's York Minster! That's St.Paul's etc etc" I guess there's something valuable lurking within each of us. I'll start the bidding....5p for Pierre's brain! (I hope this auction doesn't have a reserve price) MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Are you SURE Pierre, that you can remember what every organ you have ever heard, sounds like Well, me, certainly not; my DNA maybe? 5 Pence, that's many! Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 The input should be sampled from the sampled organ in St Agnes Liverpool that was sampled from various pipe organs of the finest magnitude. Really, with all this DNA technology, it should be possible to actually recreate a lost organ stop with just a memory cell from a living or deceased person. Think test tube organ pipes and you've got it. These could then put in a organ sperm bank, called for clarity say, a Spermapiporium, and it could be used solely for the enhancement of the digital organ world. What imput? oh!! a NAD 20 watts per channel (soft clipping of course) will do I think??Richard <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh puh-leeeez.... How about an inflatable organ? - available wherever it is needed. Ideally it would slip into a medium-sized hold-all when not in use. (It can also be partnered with an inflatable statue of Mary - for use in traffic-jams.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roffensis Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Oh puh-leeeez.... How about an inflatable organ? - available wherever it is needed. Ideally it would slip into a medium-sized hold-all when not in use. (It can also be partnered with an inflatable statue of Mary - for use in traffic-jams.) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes the Mary bit is excellent, I know of a priest who was taking Our Lady of Fatima out on plane trips round the world, she had a reserved seat next to his. I gather she was always plastered. Inflatable organ? yes very good idea, but what about when the soundboards get tired and there are wind leaks? [word removed by moderator] may help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Lauwers Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Yes the Mary bit is excellent, I know of a priest who was taking Our Lady of Fatima out on plane trips round the world, she had a reserved seat next to his. I gather she was always plastered. Inflatable organ? yes very good idea, but what about when the soundboards get tired and there are wind leaks? [word removed by moderator] may help? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do you have a picture? Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnd5584 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 Do you have a picture?Pierre <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes - on the box. It also states that she has three working offices - busy girl.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roffensis Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Do you have a picture?Pierre <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No the Masses were enough, I did not want to tarnish my experiences with a mere photograph. You know how it is!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadsheepstew Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 My two cents, then: Principles. 1) Two balancing choruses, both at least partially unenclosed, a requirement in contrapuntal music. 2) The enclosure of part of the second manual to provide the necessary sound effects for liturgical work. 3) Mechanical action to manuals and direct magnet to pedals. I Quintadena 16 Open Diapason 8 Gemshorn 8 Stopped Diapason 8 Stopped Flute 4 Principal 4 Fifteenth 2 Full Mixture 15.19.22.26 Mounted Cornet V 1.8.12.15.17 (fid G) Cremona 16 Trumpet 8 II - all enclosed unless specified Open Diapason 8 Stopped Diapason 8 (unenc) Gamba 8 Vox Angelica 8 Principal 4 Flute 4 (unenclosed) Blockflute 2 (unenclosed) Mixture III 15.19.22 (breaks @ tenor F#, treb D#, top A#, as does Gt) Clarinet 16 Hautboy 8 Vox Humana 8 (horizontal) P Stopped Diapason 16 Flute 8 (ext) Principal 8 Blockflute 4 (not extended; wide scaled) Fifteenth 4 (ext) Mixture 12.15.19 Trumpet 16 Usual couplers (no octaves) Tremulant to each division, variable speed and depth Schwimmers all round Ideally I would make it so the unenclosed section of II was at the back of the organ, had its own keyboard, and could be unhooked and wheeled away for independent use as a continuo. Shall we say half a mil for cash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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