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Guest Hector5

Having been in France since Boxing day, I ventured to mass at Meursault - enjoyed it, especially for the music (unusual with any French mass). O spoke to the organist afterwards (a French count no-less! The organ was Hartmann-ised in the 1960-1970s with the addition of a t.c. Sesquialtera instead ofa reed. Needless to say, the change was reversed in recent years, the old reed (a 16' Tuba Magna) was discovered stored in the loft against the day when more enlightened authorities might reverse the rather absurd change. This Mutin-Cavaille Coll is to DIE FOR, with the following stoplist:

 

MANUAL

16 Bourdon

8 Diapason bass

8 Diapason treble

8 Flute Harm.

8 Viole de G.

4 Prestant

4 Flute Oct.

IV Plein Jeu

16 Tuba Magna bass

16 Tuba Magna treble

8 Trompette

4 Clarion

 

PEDAL

16 Soubasse

 

I am busy trying to negotiate practice facilities with the church in lieu of possibly deputising occasionally. The organist is charming, fluent in English (he lived in the UK for 25 years), and a really nice chap. While it's not the nearest church around - the local church at Nolay having had it's Ghys 3m Hartmannised, and now spits and squawks it's way through mass with not a string in sight - all controlled from a marvellously dignified 3m French symphonic console.

 

HAS THE WORLD GONE MAD?????????

 

If your organ has been 'modified' have you checked your attics yet??????

 

Hector

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Having been in France since Boxing day, I ventured to mass at Meursault - enjoyed it, especially for the music (unusual with any French mass). O spoke to the organist afterwards (a French count no-less! The organ was Hartmann-ised in the 1960-1970s with the addition of a t.c. Sesquialtera instead ofa reed. Needless to say, the change was reversed in recent years, the old reed (a 16' Tuba Magna) was discovered stored in the loft against the day when more enlightened authorities might reverse the rather absurd change. This Mutin-Cavaille Coll is to DIE FOR, with the following stoplist:

 

MANUAL

16 Bourdon

8 Diapason bass

8 Diapason treble

8 Flute Harm.

8 Viole de G.

4 Prestant

4 Flute Oct.

IV Plein Jeu

16 Tuba Magna bass

16 Tuba Magna treble

8 Trompette

4 Clarion

 

PEDAL

16 Soubasse

 

I am busy trying to negotiate practice facilities with the church in lieu of possibly deputising occasionally. The organist is charming, fluent in English (he lived in the UK for 25 years), and a really nice chap. While it's not the nearest church around - the local church at Nolay having had it's Ghys 3m Hartmannised, and now spits and squawks it's way through mass with not a string in sight - all controlled from a marvellously dignified 3m French symphonic console.

 

HAS THE WORLD GONE MAD?????????

 

If your organ has been 'modified' have you checked your attics yet??????

 

Hector

 

These situations do arise here too:

To the best of my knowledge the following story is true.

 

The organ at St.David's Cathedral, Dyfed was due to be rebuilt, including plans to provide an enclosed choir of the style that had been there before. At one of the preparatory meetings of the Organ Committee, the Dean of St.David's announced, 'if you want to add some extra pipes, there are some in the Deanery'. Upon investigation, these turned out to be several virtually complete Father Willis Choir stops from the days when such sounds were thought useful in an accompanimental organ. Needless to say, these pipes were included when H&H reconstructed the organ.

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In St-Julienne Namur (with a 1907 Walcker 38/II, pseudo-baroquized 1962), we found

back a nearly complete, original 8' Synthematophon (a slightly conical, double-mouth,

powerfull Diapason) in a remote basement.

The ONLY other one which still exists on earth is in Stockholm, Blaue Halle.

 

Pierre

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These situations do arise here too:

To the best of my knowledge the following story is true.

 

The organ at St.David's Cathedral, Dyfed was due to be rebuilt, including plans to provide an enclosed choir of the style that had been there before. At one of the preparatory meetings of the Organ Committee, the Dean of St.David's announced, 'if you want to add some extra pipes, there are some in the Deanery'. Upon investigation, these turned out to be several virtually complete Father Willis Choir stops from the days when such sounds were thought useful in an accompanimental organ. Needless to say, these pipes were included when H&H reconstructed the organ.

It is true. Quote from article by Alan Howarth (then of Harrison's) in Organ Building 2001 p3:

 

"..Willis's original Choir would be reinstated...Providentially, all the Willis pipework displaced in the two previous rebuilds has been stored in some out buildings at the Deanery...".

 

The 'two previous rebuilds" were in 1953 and 1980 so some of the pipework had been 'lying around' for well over 40 years.

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How fashions change!

 

I wonder what sort of tone colours and divisions we'll be wanting in our organs 30 or 40 years on from now...... :)

 

Huge Fernweks, Dulciana choruses, Viole d'orchestre from 16' to 3 1/5', several celestes, Tubas and Trombas on

a good layer of foundation tone ?

With the hope, maybe, we do not condemn the rest, particularly the baroque organs, so rich and so varied ?

 

We are in a "Post-neo-baroque" period, like (about) 1890-30 was a Post-romantic one; this is the good timing,

perhaps, to build credible baroque-style organs while trying with some-thing(s!) else at the same time.

 

In 1921, Oscar Walcker built the first neo-baroque organ, while Hope-Jones ideas still played an important role.

Food for tought ?

 

Pierre

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...eeeeasy.............!

 

Philippe Hartmann is one of the key organ builders of the french XXst century. He also, with his former pupil Jean Deloye (now "Meilleur Ouvrier de France") as a partner, restored some very old organs, or rebuilt some other

 

He is a living encyclopedy about organs, ans a lot of people went to his workshop to spend time with him, as e.g. Pascal Quoirin, but also Formentelli

 

And almost everybody in the 70s, including nice english organ builders made some kind of "small jobs", including baroque stops in romantic organs.... And I think that we finally lost less romantic instruments in France during this period than in the UK....!

 

Hartmann is also the guy who started Dole again, or, with Jean Deloye, wonderfully restored some old organs (e.g. Luxeuil, or Semur en Auxois), or even ACCs (e.g. Lisieux, Cathedral, a fanstastic organ indeed, at its best after retoration), or rebuilt some others

 

I am personnaly in charge of playing the organ in Co-Cathedrale ND / Bourg-en-Bresse, reconstructed by Hartmann and Deloye in 1981, this organ was finally badly disposed with a slow pneumatic action after the last job by Michel Merklin et Kunh / Lyon, in 1927

 

The core of the 1981 job has been a complete re-sahpingt of the organ : restoration of the case, addition of a Positif de dos, new tracker action, new soundboards, new disposition, re-voicing, putting every old pipe to its best condiiton, and blending new stops with the existing ones.

 

This organ includes some stops of 1682, approx 15 stops from Callinet 1835, some stops from Beaucourt, and from Didier Van Caster, plus some new stops.

 

This 4-manual / 42 stop is absolutely fantastic, and finally incredibly versatile. The flutes are incredible, the reed chorus is really something, and finally the acoustic is incredible. It is even one of the nicest instruments I Know, having seen many organs and travelled a lot.

 

 

I – Positif de Dos, 56 notes

Bourdon 8

Montre 4

Doublette 2

Cymbale IV à V rangs

Flûte à cheminées 4

Nasard 2 2/3

Tierce 1 3/5

Larigot 1 1/3

Cromorne 8

 

II – Grand Orgue, 56 Notes

Montre 8

Flute harmonique 8

Prestant 4

Doublette 2

Fourniture VI

Grand Cornet V

Trompette 8

Clairon 4

 

III – Bombarde, 56 notes

Bourdon 16

Bourdon 8

Flûte 4

Quarte 2

Sifflet 1

Bombarde 16 (bass full length)

Trompette 8 (harmonic / F3)

 

 

IV Recit expressif

Flûte cônique 8 (conical from C1)

Dulciane 8 (tuning slots)

Unda Maris 8 (tuning slots)

Flûte allemande 4

Principal 2

Fourniture IV (with tierce)

Basson 16

Trompette 8

Voix humaine 8

Chalumeau 4

 

Pédale, 30 notes

Flûte ouverte 32

Flûte 16

Flûte 8

Octave 4

Mixture V

Bombarde 16

Trompette 8

Clairon 4

 

 

Accouplements I/II, III/II, IV/II, IV/III

Tirasses I, II, III, IV

Appels d’anches II, III, IV et Pédale

Tremblant doux I

Tremblant fort IV

 

Before misjudging somebody, I think it is better to have a comprehensive knowledge of his work !

 

Best regards to you all,

 

PF Baron

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Guest Hector5

Before misjudging somebody, I think it is better to have a comprehensive knowledge of his work !

 

 

Hmmmmmmmmmm - I have visited a number of organs in the Burgundy area, and it is clear, that, however well-intentioned, some really nice romantic organs have been changed into something that they're not. Otherwise pleasant well-proportioned organs have really been turned upside down in the name of the organ reform movement. Sure, the work has been well done, but this still does not condone what was done. In the case of Meursault, why oh why change the Tuba Magna 16' for a Sesquialtera - where's the reason in this. Equally so, what about Nolay - why such wholesale changes?????

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Before misjudging somebody, I think it is better to have a comprehensive knowledge of his work !

Hmmmmmmmmmm - I have visited a number of organs in the Burgundy area, and it is clear, that, however well-intentioned, some really nice romantic organs have been changed into something that they're not. Otherwise pleasant well-proportioned organs have really been turned upside down in the name of the organ reform movement. Sure, the work has been well done, but this still does not condone what was done. In the case of Meursault, why oh why change the Tuba Magna 16' for a Sesquialtera - where's the reason in this. Equally so, what about Nolay - why such wholesale changes?????

 

As always, a distinction must be done between new organs and rebuilds.

 

Since the Renaissance, organs have always been updated, something we do not accept any more,

but since about 20 years only, in continental Europe.

Elsewhere, it is still not the case today! there is still a belief "we are cleverer than the previous generations"

in the air.

 

So if we judge what happened 20 years or more ago in view of what we think and do today, we

shall condemn absolutely all previous generations.

 

Now if we have an organ which was modified, we can leave it alone, or go back to a previous state

according to what is possible.

And now if we have an organ which was build anew from the "modifier" in the next church, this one

we must keep (save total failure of course).

So according to the situation we shall remove the work from builder X, or, quite to the contrary,

protect it.

 

Why were those changes made ?

 

Because every generation thinks of the previous ones in term of "fashions", while viewing

his own fashion as "The Truth" !

Only since very recent times are we aware that, after all, our taste is just another fashion, nor better,

nor worst than all the others.

 

And so we are mature enough to understand the organ as a diverse instrument, which "normal state"

is to have different organs in different churches, and not the same "standard-up-to-date convention"

everywhere.

The slight problem is that the stronger advocates of standardisation are....The organists, who all want

"the same chamades and combinator than Jones" !

 

Pierre

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Before misjudging somebody, I think it is better to have a comprehensive knowledge of his work !

Hmmmmmmmmmm - I have visited a number of organs in the Burgundy area, and it is clear, that, however well-intentioned, some really nice romantic organs have been changed into something that they're not. Otherwise pleasant well-proportioned organs have really been turned upside down in the name of the organ reform movement. Sure, the work has been well done, but this still does not condone what was done. In the case of Meursault, why oh why change the Tuba Magna 16' for a Sesquialtera - where's the reason in this. Equally so, what about Nolay - why such wholesale changes?????

 

 

I think that it is purely a question of fashion. When I was a young lad, in the seventies, romantic organs were here considered as "heavy" (too much 8', too much 16'), and almost everybody was happy to somehow "lighten" them.

 

If we speak about Nolay, it was approx. in 1972, a long time ago, and that is what happened. Nobody would do that again, nowadays.

 

The must, in France, was what was called the "nordic organ", referring to a vague idea of what an organ built along Schnitger characteristics would be.

 

But people were fascinated by this north-german school, and sometimes mixed its influences with french ones. When people had the occasion to really rebuilt nice organs, this gave, e.g. Paris / St Severin (Kern and Hartmann, 1964) or Paris / ND des Blancs Manteaux (Kern, 1968, I think)

 

But in the 70's, romantic or symphonic organs were of no value here, excepted ACCs, which "had to be improved" by mixtures and electical actions. So, there was no crime in transforming a Mutin or a Ghys. This would be different now, 35 years later, although Mutin organs are generally lacking of the originality and flame of the ACCs (although there are exceptions). Ghys is still different, and rather original in comparison

 

You cannot blame somebody without considering his epoch.... and furthemore, when there are also glorious instruments from the same workshop !!!!!!

 

With best regards

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...eeeeasy.............!

 

Philippe Hartmann is one of the key organ builders of the french XXst century. He also, with his former pupil Jean Deloye (now "Meilleur Ouvrier de France") as a partner, restored some very old organs, or rebuilt some other

 

He is a living encyclopedy about organs, ans a lot of people went to his workshop to spend time with him, as e.g. Pascal Quoirin, but also Formentelli

 

And almost everybody in the 70s, including nice english organ builders made some kind of "small jobs", including baroque stops in romantic organs.... And I think that we finally lost less romantic instruments in France during this period than in the UK....!

 

Hartmann is also the guy who started Dole again, or, with Jean Deloye, wonderfully restored some old organs (e.g. Luxeuil, or Semur en Auxois), or even ACCs (e.g. Lisieux, Cathedral, a fanstastic organ indeed, at its best after retoration), or rebuilt some others

 

I am personnaly in charge of playing the organ in Co-Cathedrale ND / Bourg-en-Bresse, reconstructed by Hartmann and Deloye in 1981, this organ was finally badly disposed with a slow pneumatic action after the last job by Michel Merklin et Kunh / Lyon, in 1927

 

The core of the 1981 job has been a complete re-sahpingt of the organ : restoration of the case, addition of a Positif de dos, new tracker action, new soundboards, new disposition, re-voicing, putting every old pipe to its best condiiton, and blending new stops with the existing ones.

 

This organ includes some stops of 1682, approx 15 stops from Callinet 1835, some stops from Beaucourt, and from Didier Van Caster, plus some new stops.

 

This 4-manual / 42 stop is absolutely fantastic, and finally incredibly versatile. The flutes are incredible, the reed chorus is really something, and finally the acoustic is incredible. It is even one of the nicest instruments I Know, having seen many organs and travelled a lot.

I – Positif de Dos, 56 notes

Bourdon 8

Montre 4

Doublette 2

Cymbale IV à V rangs

Flûte à cheminées 4

Nasard 2 2/3

Tierce 1 3/5

Larigot 1 1/3

Cromorne 8

 

II – Grand Orgue, 56 Notes

Montre 8

Flute harmonique 8

Prestant 4

Doublette 2

Fourniture VI

Grand Cornet V

Trompette 8

Clairon 4

 

III – Bombarde, 56 notes

Bourdon 16

Bourdon 8

Flûte 4

Quarte 2

Sifflet 1

Bombarde 16 (bass full length)

Trompette 8 (harmonic / F3)

IV Recit expressif

Flûte cônique 8 (conical from C1)

Dulciane 8 (tuning slots)

Unda Maris 8 (tuning slots)

Flûte allemande 4

Principal 2

Fourniture IV (with tierce)

Basson 16

Trompette 8

Voix humaine 8

Chalumeau 4

 

Pédale, 30 notes

Flûte ouverte 32

Flûte 16

Flûte 8

Octave 4

Mixture V

Bombarde 16

Trompette 8

Clairon 4

Accouplements I/II, III/II, IV/II, IV/III

Tirasses I, II, III, IV

Appels d’anches II, III, IV et Pédale

Tremblant doux I

Tremblant fort IV

 

Before misjudging somebody, I think it is better to have a comprehensive knowledge of his work !

 

Best regards to you all,

 

PF Baron

 

This looks rather fine - is there a website or photos - or even soundbites?

 

AJJ

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This looks rather fine - is there a website or photos - or even soundbites?

 

AJJ

 

Please try this : http://catholique-belley-ars.cef.fr/spip.php?article141

 

The site has recently been "modernised", but we lost the disposition as well as the possibility to click the photos. There are one or two mistakes in the titles of the photos

 

I will soon have a appointment with the webmaster to solve this.

 

Kind regards

 

PFB

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Please try this : http://catholique-belley-ars.cef.fr/spip.php?article141

 

The site has recently been "modernised", but we lost the disposition as well as the possibility to click the photos. There are one or two mistakes in the titles of the photos

 

I will soon have a appointment with the webmaster to solve this.

 

Kind regards

 

PFB

 

Many thanks for this.

 

AJJ

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In St-Julienne Namur (with a 1907 Walcker 38/II, pseudo-baroquized 1962), we found

back a nearly complete, original 8' Synthematophon (a slightly conical, double-mouth,

powerfull Diapason) in a remote basement.

The ONLY other one which still exists on earth is in Stockholm, Blaue Halle.

 

Pierre

 

Fortunately there is at least one other example of a Synt(h)ematophon known and in use. The 1914-16 Walcker organ of the Grote Kerk in Doesburg (built for the Nieuwe Zuiderkerk in Rotterdam) has such a stop, still speaking on its original chest and pressure.

 

Any other examples known?

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Fine, Dave !

 

On which pressure does it work ?

In St-Julienne, one of the very last organs build by Oscar Walcker

before he followed the "alsatian reform" style, the whole organ

worked on 78mm (still the case today, nothing changed in the wind system).

Pierre

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Fine, Dave !

 

On which pressure does it work ?

In St-Julienne, one of the very last organs build by Oscar Walcker

before he followed the "alsatian reform" style, the whole organ

worked on 78mm (still the case today, nothing changed in the wind system).

Pierre

 

Pierre, I have checked this, the wind pressure on which this stop speaks is 110 Mm.

 

It is on Manual 2 (Schwellwerk), all the stops of this manual speak on 90 Mm, except for the two reeds and the Syntematophon, which are on 110 Mm.

 

Regarding the history of this very interesting organ: there is a book available called "Orgelreform in Nederland:, published by the Walburg Pers / Stichting Monumentaal Walcker-orgel Doesburg / Rijksdienst voor de Monumentenzorg. It was published in 2003 and is still available, if you are interested.

 

I know the organist of the church very well, so if you would like to visit the organ (and see the inside), this is possible. Please let me know, I can arrange a visit for you.

 

There are also several very interesting recordings available of this remarkable and truly monumental instrument.

 

Some pictures of it can be found on the following link:

 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~twomusic/concerts/Do...g/Doesburg.html

 

regards,

Dave Lazoe.

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Thanks, Dave !

 

This one is designed after "Alsatian reform" manner.

(The first by Walcker was Rheinoldikirche, Dortmund, 1909).

 

It is interesting to note that Rupp, who so heavily-heartily condemned

high pressures, had Walcker raising theirs, since before that time they

seldom exceeded 75-80mm.

(This said, 90 to 110 remains quite reasonnable).

 

The Syntematophon changed obviously in it function; in Namur, it was

on the Manual eins, where it had to fulfill the role of four Open Diapasons

played togheter -and exactly so it will be again-, while in Doesburg it is

on the second manual.

 

A strange thing is the fact these pipes (made of VERY thick zinc, so that

the guys who rebuilt the organ could not damage them despite having

smashed them carelessly in the basement!) do not have the Walcker

markings on them. They could have been made by another firm and buyed

by Walcker.

 

Pierre

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