What Do You Think...

[MusingMuso]

Obviously you have spent a lot of time and money in promoting yourself on a website.  But you might be making the same mistake a lot of student's do after spending 3 or 4 years in a redbrick University.  As my Accountant  once told me web sites and advertising yourself on those silly little cards are nothing more then tombstones ! 

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I would suggest that Ronald writes the polite version of the point I was making. I think I was fortunate in realising early on, that climbing a cliff is one thing, but when there are clergymen quite happy to kick one off the summit, the risks are far too great and the rewards inadeqaute.......I turned to finance and legal matters.

 

The organ "market" is dead in the water in this country, and our finest organists are heard more abroad than they are at home. The remainder struggle on in the church establishment as best they can, but for how long?

 

The churches are heading for financial bankruptcy, but they have been intellectually bankrupt for a long time, and few listen.

 

If that sounds negative (maybe even cynical), then it is.

 

Of one thing I am sure; the organ will survive, great music written for it will survive and there will be a few brave souls who carry it forward into the future in spite of the obstacles. The rest of us have to fit the organ into the gaps left when everything else has taken priority.

 

THAT Richard, is the real world of popularism, binge drinking, tasteless extravegances and endless musical bon-bons on Classic FM.

 

Welcome to the 21st century!

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

May I ask some quite silly questions?

 

-How old is Ronald's accountant?

 

-Why are we 214 here?

 

-How is it that there are more than 2000 postings since 2004, August?

 

(Had we had such results on our Website at S...Ltd !)

 

Maybe this dead was a false one, trying to break down that coffin while we

are still singing the In Paradisio (sorry, belgian humor!).

 

Best wishes,

Pierre Lauwers.

[MusingMuso]

May I ask some quite silly questions?

 

-How old is Ronald's accountant?

 

-Why are we 214 here?

 

-How is it that there are more than 2000 postings since 2004, August?

 

(Had we had such results on our Website at S...Ltd !)

 

Maybe this dead was a false one, trying to break down that coffin while we

are still singing the In Paradisio (sorry, belgian humor!).

 

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It means Piere, that 214 people have written 9.3457943 topics or replies to topics since August 2004.

 

If 214 attend 10 organ-recitals per year, and donate £10 to each, the total budget before expenses, would amount to £21,400. In reality, it would be half that at best.

 

So, even 214 people could not support ONE professional organist for a year.

 

If we see music-making in business terms, it is obvious that in order to cover professional fees, costs (possibly hire) of instrument and venue, advertising, printing, telephone calls, postage, performing rights (etc etc), then one needs about £2,000 per event income...in other words, an audience of 200 paying £10 per ticket. Obviously, in a church, that cost could be reduced substantially, but it is still a lot of money if a sensible professional fee has to be paid.

 

Even amateur events which involve orchestras or other ensembles, can have costs well over £1,000. I know, because I've done it.

 

When the average audience is now 50 or less, even with top performers, (I have played to 12 people!), it is simply a non-starter.

 

There needs to be a huge diplomatic effort on the part of organists and those who like organ-music, because people no longer go to church and never hear an organ except on radio, or incidentally as part of a choral event or an organ concerto etc.

 

I once organised a fairly ambitious event, in which I hired an amateur orchestra, and themed the event as "pipes & strings." A Handel Organ Concerto, THE Albinoni, one or two substantial orchestral works and solo organ items based on strings...T & F in D minor, the Schumann no2. BACH Fugue (which I played very fiery and very fast, as it shoud be) a transcription of CP E Bach's "Solfeggio" etc etc.

400 people turned up, and we lost about £300....not a disaster, but a loss nevertheless. However, as a piece of diplomacy and musical education, it was good, and possibly opened up "hearts and minds" to the fact that the organ was still around and to be taken seriously.

 

Twenty year earlier, a similar sort of event got an audience of 800, and it covered costs and made a slight profit.

 

Of course, I commend Pierre's enthusiasm (perhaps optimism), but it is important to realise the scale of the mountain to be climbed, and to keep one's financial feet firmly on terra firma at all times.

 

I couldn't possibly comment about breaking open the coffin during the "In Paradisum," but I would certainly advise against leaving a tremulant on during the quiter moments of funerals!!!!!!

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

This would be quite a surrealist-belgian scenery: A mourning Voix céleste

(or Vox angelica) quietly filling the church with its meditative voice, and then

CRACK!

214 people, that's only the emerged part of the iceberg. Add the non-logged

visitors, the ones that don't surf. Of course we don't know how big a Titanic we could

sink like a simple russian submarine.

Let's summarize the matter as this: any Ltd that would have as much activity on its Website as this one would be rather happy indeed.

(Speaking from experience).

 

Pierre

[Brian Childs]

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It means Piere, that 214 people have written 9.3457943 topics or replies to topics since August 2004.

 

If 214 attend 10 organ-recitals per year, and donate £10 to each, the total budget before expenses, would amount to £21,400. In reality, it would be half that at best.

 

So, even 214 people could not support ONE professional organist for a year.

 

If we see music-making in business terms, it is obvious that in order to cover professional fees, costs (possibly hire) of instrument and venue, advertising, printing, telephone calls, postage, performing rights (etc etc), then one needs about £2,000 per event income...in other words, an audience of 200 paying £10 per ticket. Obviously, in a church, that cost could be reduced substantially, but it is still a lot of money if a sensible professional fee has to be paid.

 

Even amateur events which involve orchestras or other ensembles, can have costs well over £1,000. I know, because I've done it.

 

When the average audience is now 50 or less, even with top performers, (I have played to 12 people!), it is simply a non-starter.

 

There needs to be a huge diplomatic effort on the part of organists and those who like organ-music, because people no longer go to church and never hear an organ except on radio, or incidentally as part of a choral event or an organ concerto etc.

 

I once organised a fairly ambitious event, in which I hired an amateur orchestra, and themed the event as "pipes & strings." A Handel Organ Concerto, THE Albinoni, one or two substantial orchestral works and solo organ items based on strings...T & F in D minor, the Schumann no2. BACH Fugue (which I played very fiery and very fast, as it shoud be) a transcription of CP E Bach's "Solfeggio" etc etc.

400 people turned up, and we lost about £300....not a disaster, but a loss nevertheless. However, as a piece of diplomacy and musical education, it was good, and possibly opened up "hearts and minds" to the fact that the organ was still around and to be taken seriously.

 

Twenty year earlier, a similar sort of event got an audience of 800, and it covered costs and made a slight profit.

 

Of course, I commend Pierre's enthusiasm (perhaps optimism), but it is important to realise the scale of the mountain to be climbed, and to keep one's financial feet firmly on terra firma at all times.

 

I couldn't possibly comment about breaking open the coffin during the "In Paradisum," but I would certainly advise against leaving a tremulant on during the quiter moments of funerals!!!!!!

 

MM

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Dear Richard,

 

As one Hull graduate to another I wish you every success with your chosen career. I sincerely hope it goes the way you want it to but you need to go forward with your eyes open : not tight shut . That means facing up to some of the problems mentioned by MM and Ronald in their posts and a few others they might have added, but did not. For example, how many organists have positions which provide them with an income on which it is possible to live, AND repay one's student loan AND save that extra amount for one's old age which the Government is soon going to impose (in some shape or form ) on your generation ? How many of these positions are genuinely open to competition and are not in fact stitched up by the Oxbridge old boy network ? Who you know beats what you know every time, and you can hardly hope to make it otherwise. Many parents want to achieve the most favourable outcome for their own children and will go to considerable lengths to achieve this: oxbridge behaves in a not dissimilar fashion. Ok, so you are reconciled to having a "day job" to provide you with those necessities of life which are required to keep you in a condition able to play. Where do you get one ? When I was your age many local grammar schools in towns with important churchs more or less had a teaching post reserved for the assistant organist and were happy to acccomodate him in their timetabling process. I have lived in Ulster for 30 years where we still have the grammar schools but not the churchs, so I do not know what the position is, but I would be absolutely astounded if it were anything like as favourable as it used to be in modern multi-cultural and increasingly non-Christian Britain. A living solely as a concert artist ? How many can you name in this country who can do that ?

 

I shall shut up. I have no wish to rain on your parade and I do hope you achieve what you want to, but you will need a fair slice of luck as well as an ability and willingness to indulge in a little self publicity in order to make it. I hope you get the luck. Lampada Ferens.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Maybe it's different in Britain, but in Belgium at least one could say the same for whatever activity, be it the car business, pharmaceutical insurance, etc, etc, etc.

Today any businessman would earn his living far better firing everyone, closing

the thing and investing the money on the stock exchange. Indeed, that's what 50% actually did.So what? Do we need to sit down and watch the trains?

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

Do we need to sit down and watch the trains?

 

Pierre

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And what is wrong with this?

 

I have driven a steam-train, I have steam-trains chugging along close to where I live and there is nothing quite so charming, quite so noisy and quite so polluting.

 

Give me the smell of hot-oil, the acrid stench of burning coal and the distant sound of a whistle and I'll show you heaven. Oh dear! That was a Wurlitzer theatre organ, Mancini's theme from the "Pink Panther" and a warm pizza wasn't it?

 

I'm a lost cause....ignore me!

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

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And what is wrong with this?

 

I have driven a steam-train, I have steam-trains chugging along close to where I live and there is nothing quite so charming, quite so noisy and quite so polluting.

 

Give me the smell of hot-oil, the acrid stench of burning coal and the distant sound of a whistle and I'll show you heaven. Oh dear! That was a Wurlitzer theatre organ, Mancini's theme from the "Pink Panther" and a warm pizza wasn't it?

 

I'm a lost cause....ignore me!

 

MM

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Well, MM, I did not know you were a cow! apologies!

Pierre

[Brian Childs]

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And what is wrong with this?

 

I have driven a steam-train, I have steam-trains chugging along close to where I live and there is nothing quite so charming, quite so noisy and quite so polluting.

 

Give me the smell of hot-oil, the acrid stench of burning coal and the distant sound of a whistle and I'll show you heaven. Oh dear! That was a Wurlitzer theatre organ, Mancini's theme from the "Pink Panther" and a warm pizza wasn't it?

 

I'm a lost cause....ignore me!

 

MM

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Well, MM, I did not know you were a cow! apologies!

Pierre

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I do hope MM does not turn out to be a lady steam train enthusiast !

 

But if we can be slightly serious for one moment, then there is quite a lot to be said in favour, and little to be said against, those with slightly more experience of life trying to pass that on to those with less of it. In this way people do not constantly have to relearn that the round wheel works better than the square one or that if you stick your hand in the fire it burns. No one requires the youngsters to listen and the evidence is overwhelming in support of the proposition that they do not ! No one wants to discourage anybody from following their own star, but the watch word is "informed consent" - based on knowledge and some assessment of the risks. After all quite close to where Pierre is can be found rather a lot of graves of young men who never had a chance to grow old because those in a position to know better withheld the knowledge that elan and dash do not easily prevail over barbed wire, machine guns and high explosive. If you know someone is going to go for a walk through a minefield , and you have a map which indicates the position of at least some of the mines, it must surely be kinder to give them a copy of the map than merely to wish them luck as you wave them goodbye ! You can always wish them luck as well as giving them the map and they will need the luck when they come to spot where the map is inaccurate as they surely will !

 

Brian Childs

[Pierre Lauwers]

Yes, Mr Child,

 

This makes sense, and there are some of my ancestors in these graves near Ieper as well.

What I mean is this: a man today who would stick to cold reason would sit on a chair watching the trains like the cows do. No risk, no investment in recession times.

But is such a life worth the name?

 

Best wishes,

Pierre.

[Jonathan Thorne]

As an organ student and part time organ builder myself I think the website is very good and there are some nice pictures of the Beverley Minster organ. I've some good and some not so not personal websites. I thought about having one once, but I though - what the point, but that is only my personal feeling.

[Brian Childs]

Yes, Mr Child,

 

This makes sense, and there are some of my ancestors in these graves near Ieper as well.

What I mean is this: a man today who would stick to cold reason would sit on a chair watching the trains like the cows do. No risk, no investment in recession times.

But is such a life worth the name?

 

Best wishes,

Pierre.

 

 

Dear Pierre,

 

In terms of the progress of the human race you are clearly right. If no one had ever taken the risk of getting up and going to see what was over the next hill we would still be living in caves and complaining that this antelope meat did not taste like the mamoth meat they used to have in the old days ! Society needs people who will encounter risks when there is a reason to do so. We all approve of the person who rushes into a burning building to try to save a person who is trapped inside. Or rather we all approve of such a person in general terms. Approval in specific circumstances does not necessarily follow from this generalised approval. For example, if I have deliberately started the fire to dispose of my intolerable mother-in-law (standard British joke this as you will be aware - I actually got on very well with my mother-in-law, a lovely lady) then in the specific case I will consider the heroic rescuer an interfering busybody. Thus we need to be careful when moving from the general to the particular or specific. While it is undoubtedly good for Society (and our general well being) that we should not all stand watching the trains in a suppine fashion, it may be the best course of action for a particular individual to follow. There are many reasons for this but just one will do here: we are all different in our ability to cope with failure, to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off , and start all over again. In the course of my life I have known people whose lives were ruined by something which appeared trivial in comparison to an apparently far more serious problem which someone else was able to take almost in their stride. I am sure this has been your experience too.The objective impression was not the subjective reality for the individuals concerned. Because we are all different in our stamina , resilience and ability to cope with disappointment, it follows , I think, that some individuals (those least able to cope) would be best advised to stand and watch. But it is far better for those individuals to identify themselves than for others to presume to do so. What others can do is provide the raw information which the particular individual can take into account in deciding on what course of action would best serve his or her interests.

 

All the best,

 

Brian Childs

[Jonathan Thorne]

Sorry but what has this got to do with Richard McVeigh's website. Are we loosing the thread a bit?!!!

 

Yes, Mr Child,

 

This makes sense, and there are some of my ancestors in these graves near Ieper as well.

What I mean is this: a man today who would stick to cold reason would sit on a chair watching the trains like the cows do. No risk, no investment in recession times.

But is such a life worth the name?

 

Best wishes,

Pierre.

Dear Pierre,

 

In terms of the progress of the human race you are clearly right. If no one had ever taken the risk of getting up and going to see what was over the next hill we would still be living in caves and complaining that this antelope meat did not taste like the mamoth meat they used to have in the old days ! Society needs people who will encounter risks when there is a reason to do so. We all approve of the person who rushes into a burning building to try to save a person who is trapped inside. Or rather we all approve of such a person in general terms. Approval in specific circumstances does not necessarily follow from this generalised approval. For example, if I have deliberately started the fire to dispose of my intolerable mother-in-law (standard British joke this as you will be aware - I actually got on very well with my mother-in-law, a lovely lady) then in the specific case I will consider the heroic rescuer an interfering busybody. Thus we need to be careful when moving from the general to the particular or specific. While it is undoubtedly good for Society (and our general well being) that we should not all stand watching the trains in a suppine fashion, it may be the best course of action for a particular individual to follow. There are many reasons for this but just one will do here: we are all different in our ability to cope with failure, to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off , and start all over again. In the course of my life I have known people whose lives were ruined by something which appeared trivial in comparison to an apparently far more serious problem which someone else was able to take almost in their stride. I am sure this has been your experience too.The objective impression was not the subjective reality for the individuals concerned. Because we are all different in our stamina , resilience and ability to cope with disappointment, it follows , I think, that some individuals (those least able to cope) would be best advised to stand and watch. But it is far better for those individuals to identify themselves than for others to presume to do so. What others can do is provide the raw information which the particular individual can take into account in deciding on what course of action would best serve his or her interests.

 

All the best,

 

Brian Childs

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[Brian Childs]

Sorry but what has this got to do with Richard McVeigh's website. Are we loosing the thread a bit?!!!

[

 

Possibly, but possibly not. The connection goes like this.

 

1. X sets up website and asks other people what they think of it.

 

2. Others read website and draw inference that the site exists not because X is overly given to self publicity for its own sake but because X wishes to further the career on which he is just embarking. He has spent money to this end.

 

3. Others then comment not only on the website itself but on the likely job satisfaction to be experienced in pursuing the said career, the chances of doing so successfully, the pitfalls and problems that lie in wait etc. Some of this comment might be thought to be negative and less than encouraging.

 

4. Therefore another correspondent asks what is the point of being so negative and thus we reach

 

5. a point at which we are exchanging views on just where the balance is to be struck between supportive encouragement on the one hand and a gentle reminder that "and they all lived happily ever after" is a feature of fairy stories, not real life, on the other. Or, if you like, the correlation, if any, between the money expended and the achievement of the outcome which was the reason for its expenditure. It is the clearly implied view of some contributors that that correlation is going to be either slight or even non-existent : indeed it could even possibly be negative. At least this warns X that it is not safe to assume that a positive correlation is guaranteed and that it is wise to keep an eye on the situation.

 

All that said, perhaps one should not stray further down this road.

 

Brian Childs

[MusingMuso]

5. a point at which we are exchanging views on just where the balance is to be struck between supportive encouragement on the one hand and a gentle reminder that "and they all lived happily ever after" is a feature of fairy stories, not real life, on the other. Or, if you like, the correlation, if any, between the money expended and the achievement of the outcome which was the reason for its expenditure. It is the clearly implied view of some contributors that that correlation is going to be either slight or even non-existent : indeed it could even possibly be negative. At least this warns X that it is not safe to assume that a positive correlation is guaranteed and that it is wise to keep an eye on the situation.

 

All that said, perhaps one should not stray further down this road.

 

Brian Childs

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Are you a civil servant Brian?

 

I had to read this five times before it made sense!

 

MM

[Brian Childs]

5. a point at which we are exchanging views on just where the balance is to be struck between supportive encouragement on the one hand and a gentle reminder that "and they all lived happily ever after" is a feature of fairy stories, not real life, on the other. Or, if you like, the correlation, if any, between the money expended and the achievement of the outcome which was the reason for its expenditure. It is the clearly implied view of some contributors that that correlation is going to be either slight or even non-existent : indeed it could even possibly be negative. At least this warns X that it is not safe to assume that a positive correlation is guaranteed and that it is wise to keep an eye on the situation.

 

All that said, perhaps one should not stray further down this road.

 

Brian Childs

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Are you a civil servant Brian?

 

I had to read this five times before it made sense!

 

No I wish: I would have had a much bigger pension! I am merely a humble lawyer (retired). I left out all the "herein before mentioned"s, the "whereas these presents testify" and various other catchphrases, but I grant you its not that easy to understand.MM

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[MusingMuso]

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Are you a civil servant Brian?

 

I had to read this five times before it made sense!

 

No I wish: I would have had a much bigger pension! I am merely a humble lawyer (retired). I left out all the "herein before mentioned"s, the "whereas these presents testify" and various other catchphrases, but I grant you its not that easy to understand.MM

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Aha! THAT'S why I didn't understand the foregoing, hereinafter referred to as "your post."

 

MM

[Brian Childs]

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Aha! THAT'S why I didn't understand the foregoing, hereinafter referred to as "your post."

 

MM

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On the other hand those who do sums to 6 decimal points - I bet you used a calculator - might be thought to inhabit the "glass house" (of the existence of which judicial notice is taken) and should therefore refrain from throwing too many stones.

[Guest Leathered-Lips]

Aww! that's a bit errmm........

Take no notice Richard!!

Richard Astridge

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If I were forty years younger, young man.....

 

Edna x

[DaveHarries]

let me know, its fairly new and I would like some feedback on it!

 

www.richardmcveigh.co.uk

 

A bit of self promotion never hurts anybody, apparently! 

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Richard,

 

Nice site. I like the Karg-Elert piece in the download section: ages since I had heard that.

 

Dave