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Indeed, there are not many.

 

First example:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz6MlY3MVQ0...feature=related

 

Another one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CALzxblaOQ...feature=related

 

Quite interesting registration here too:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAGMogLQm1M...feature=related

 

....And also here. The crispness, the accuracy, the clarity, you need them in the foundation stops

or nothing else will provide it. Demonstration:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjsZ9NDCHwo...feature=related

 

.....And this remains true with rapid tempis, where there is no need for Schreinendwerk:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7PdxPjtZRE...feature=related

 

Pierre

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I remember Stephen Bicknell visited the Trost organs in Thuringia and on his return even he privately raised serious concerns about Trost's sanity. He wrote a couple of very good articles about the Trost organs in Choir & Organ, which I would recommend to everyone to get a good understanding of these organs.

 

The mixtures are indeed bizzare in Trost organs, even by the standards of the day. The chorus mixtures invariably include Tierces, in the 4' series in the bass but breaking back to the 16' series in the treble - yes - you'll find a 3 1/5 tierce in the Great mixture of even quite a modest 2 manual Trost.

 

Then there are the many varied - and sometimes extremely bizzare - 8 foot stops. Things like double flutes, consisting of a single pipe divided into 2 stopped speaking parts, weird and fanciful strings and reeds. The boots of the reeds are very distinctive, with a wooden bottom half riveted onto a metal top half, with a wooden block (why?). Even the rack posts are turned and decorated into fanciful patterns that make most chess pieces look plain and simple in comparison.

 

The key and stop actions are generally tangled and not straightforward. One gets the impression that they were a bit of an afterthought and Trost just fitted them in as he could. This means that the actions of Trost organs are usually not the best and often feel spongy and remote.

 

However, it would be wrong to critise Trost's organs and write them off just for their strange mixtures and difficult key actions. What is immediately clear is the obsessive detail that Trost put into each of his organs, frequently spending many years fussing over all the details (I think the town council at Waltershausen had to take legal action against Trost after he was still working on the organ 4 years after its due completion date). His organs work because of the extremely high craftsmanship Trost put in and his obssessive attention to detail, normally at the expense of more pressing concerns. There really aren't any other organs built to this level of detail anywhere else in the world and because of this, Trost deserves a special place in the Pantheon of distinguished organ builders.

 

So these organs really are worthy of special attention and the purpose of a visit (not just "worthy of a detour"), however much we may doubt the sanity of their creator.

 

Pierre - thanks for the link to Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam - yes, absolutely right to make the point one doesn't need Schreinendwerk for rapid tempis (although it is perhaps a bit too hurried in this performance). What a wonderful piece. That 16' Quintatoen is a little star!

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"The chorus mixtures invariably include Tierces, in the 4' series in the bass but breaking back to the 16' series in the treble - yes - you'll find a 3 1/5 tierce in the Great mixture of even quite a modest 2 manual Trost."

(Quote)

 

.....And you will find just that in many others organs in that area, not only Trosts.

And why ?

Because the 8' tierce rank is in the Sesquialtera ! the Mixture "goes round the Sesquialtera",

which is mandatorily drawn before the Mixture.

 

Dura Lex....

 

Pierre

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This video turns into a performance of Bach's Piece d'Orgue, skillfully cut between 3 Gottfried Silbermann organs, played by M.C.Alain:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f3NxiQPFHU

 

Interesting for 2 reasons:

 

1. The Dresden Hofkirche instrument relies on the pedal reed alone to balence against the Great Organ chorus, without a coupler. This is worth bearing in mind in relation to the discussion on independant pedal upperwork for Bach elsewhere on this forum. Usually the Silbermanns would not have a pedal coupler for an organ of 16.8.16 (those that do are usually later additions) - they would expect the (usually very forthright) pedal reed to carry the line by itself.

 

2. The similarity in sound between these 3 organs - they are almost identical, the difference being in the acoustic and the recording. This rather belies Peter William's assertion in his book The European Organ 1450-1850 that Gottfried Silbermann scaled and voiced differently for different buildings, citing the difference between the Georgenkirche and the Marienkirche as an example. A friend who had made the same pilgrimage said he was amazed how similar these 2 organs were - identical pipework, finished pretty much identically, in 2 very different buildings.

Well folks, you can now make the comparison between these organs for yourself now - prepare to be astonished!

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This video turns into a performance of Bach's Piece d'Orgue, skillfully cut between 3 Gottfried Silbermann organs, played by M.C.Alain:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f3NxiQPFHU

 

Interesting for 2 reasons:

 

1. The Dresden Hofkirche instrument relies on the pedal reed alone to balence against the Great Organ chorus, without a coupler. This is worth bearing in mind in relation to the discussion on independant pedal upperwork for Bach elsewhere on this forum. Usually the Silbermanns would not have a pedal coupler for an organ of 16.8.16 (those that do are usually later additions) - they would expect the (usually very forthright) pedal reed to carry the line by itself.

 

2. The similarity in sound between these 3 organs - they are almost identical, the difference being in the acoustic and the recording. This rather belies Peter William's assertion in his book The European Organ 1450-1850 that Gottfried Silbermann scaled and voiced differently for different buildings, citing the difference between the Georgenkirche and the Marienkirche as an example. A friend who had made the same pilgrimage said he was amazed how similar these 2 organs were - identical pipework, finished pretty much identically, in 2 very different buildings.

Well folks, you can now make the comparison between these organs for yourself now - prepare to be astonished!

 

Hehe. That's fun, switching between the three Silbermanns (Silbermänner?). To me it demonstrates clearly how potent was Silbermann's influence on twentieth-century organ builders, and still is today, to some extent. These [quint] mixtures ARE designed of polyphony - they are patently not French Plein Jeu sounds made solely for block chords. Given that we are surrounded by neo-classical and post-neo-whatever instruments, crowned with quint mixtures, we should surely feel free to use them in Bach and for extended periods of time, even tho JSB had his own reservations about Silbermann's voicing? We might add the Positive Sesquialtera to the 'organ pleno', but it's never going to add more than a dash of pepper and it will certainly never sound like a Trost!

 

(And how wonderful to see M-CA using heels and - shock horror - the outside of her feet, in the Magnificat prelude in video 4/6)

 

Ian

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This video turns into a performance of Bach's Piece d'Orgue, skillfully cut between 3 Gottfried Silbermann organs, played by M.C.Alain:

 

====================

 

 

Are you absolutely sure about this Colin?

 

The last time I sat at the first console, I'm sure it was in Groningen at the Martinikerk! :o

 

MM

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MM, Read what I wrote carefully and you'll see I can be pretty accurate. Of course it starts at the Martinikerk - that is why I wrote "this video turns into a performance..."

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This video turns into a performance of Bach's Piece d'Orgue, skillfully cut between 3 Gottfried Silbermann organs, played by M.C.Alain:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f3NxiQPFHU

 

Interesting for 2 reasons:

 

1. The Dresden Hofkirche instrument relies on the pedal reed alone to balence against the Great Organ chorus, without a coupler. This is worth bearing in mind in relation to the discussion on independant pedal upperwork for Bach elsewhere on this forum. Usually the Silbermanns would not have a pedal coupler for an organ of 16.8.16 (those that do are usually later additions) - they would expect the (usually very forthright) pedal reed to carry the line by itself.

 

2. The similarity in sound between these 3 organs - they are almost identical, the difference being in the acoustic and the recording. This rather belies Peter William's assertion in his book The European Organ 1450-1850 that Gottfried Silbermann scaled and voiced differently for different buildings, citing the difference between the Georgenkirche and the Marienkirche as an example. A friend who had made the same pilgrimage said he was amazed how similar these 2 organs were - identical pipework, finished pretty much identically, in 2 very different buildings.

Well folks, you can now make the comparison between these organs for yourself now - prepare to be astonished!

 

 

=========================

 

I have hear it stated that the single pedal reed balancing the chorus-work, was to save wind in the days when people-power provided it.

 

Apparently, it was either pedal flues OR reeds, and not both together according to some. I personally have my doubts, because it makes a bit of a nonsense of all the pedal upperwork, and of course, many organs did not have the manual to pedal coupler.

 

However, there is scientific evidence to back the idea that reeds take a loss less wind than flues, so there may be some truth in it.

 

MM

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MM, Read what I wrote carefully and you'll see I can be pretty accurate. Of course it starts at the Martinikerk - that is why I wrote "this video turns into a performance..."

 

==========================

 

 

Aaaah! I must be pretty supid not to have noticed; though I have to say that my English teacher, (were he still alive), would have hung the pair of us up from our toe-nails had we used the word pretty as an adjective.

 

Still, I'm sure if the police can use it, we can do the same. :o

 

MM

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=========================

 

I have hear it stated that the single pedal reed balancing the chorus-work, was to save wind in the days when people-power provided it.

 

Apparently, it was either pedal flues OR reeds, and not both together according to some. I personally have my doubts, because it makes a bit of a nonsense of all the pedal upperwork, and of course, many organs did not have the manual to pedal coupler.

 

However, there is scientific evidence to back the idea that reeds take a loss less wind than flues, so there may be some truth in it.

 

MM

 

On page 33 of Organ Building 2004 a wind usage graph shows that a 16 ft Bombarde uses approximately 13 times less air than a 16 ft sub bass. So adding the reed to the sub bass doesn't increase air demand significantly. However I wonder if unsteadiness of wind rather than wind volume was a more important consideration when higher pitches were added; to reduce unsteadiness it would be better (I suggest) to use pedal reeds alone with the pedal upper work?

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When, in a german baroque organ, you draw the 16' Posaune,

no flue stop is to be heard any more, be them one or five.

So the obvious way is to shut them whenever the reeds are used.

 

Pierre

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When, in a german baroque organ, you draw the 16' Posaune,

no flue stop is to be heard any more, be them one or five.

So the obvious way is to shut them whenever the reeds are used.

 

Pierre

 

============================

 

 

At risk of being a pain, what are the sources of evidence for this?

 

I've never come across any, which probably means that I've been looking in the wrong places.

o

MM

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When, in a german baroque organ, you draw the 16' Posaune,

no flue stop is to be heard any more, be them one or five.

So the obvious way is to shut them whenever the reeds are used.

 

Pierre

Not according to Mattheson or Adlung.

 

Ian

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The source is my experience in Situ.

If you go there and try the organs, this becames

soon obvious; the only real reed chorus you can find

in those organs is on the Pedal; it goes from a 16' alone

up to 32-16-8-4-2 (in the north). And they orvershadow

the flues, in proportion, like in a romantic organ.

On the manuals it is the reverse: the reeds never overtake

the flue choruses.

 

Have a trip there !

 

Pierre

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Not according to Mattheson or Adlung.

 

Ian

 

 

==========================

 

How significant is Mattheson?

 

I'm looking into all this at the moment, for the first time (shame on me), and from what I have thus far discovered, Mattheson represents the "status quo" of the German Baroque. Bach, on the otehr hand, was a bit of a revolutionary, (or at least a rebel), and used combinations of stops which upset some people.

 

A source closer to home appears to be a thing entitled "Die Harmonische

Seelenlust" by Kauffmann, which Bach sold from his home, and which contains specific registrations commonplace in the Thuringian region.

 

In a way, what many of us have done, (in the absence of first-hand evidence), is to register Bach's music as those who taught us told us to do, or which we have heard in concerts or on recordings. I know that much of what I do was influenced by Geraint Jones, and has since been modified by listening to such as Chapuis playing period instruments. It may be a good way of learning, but the trouble is, I can never quote the sources of the scholarship or the appropriate references to older material.

 

So I'm finally getting round to it, which must be a good thing. Hopefully I will be better informed at the end of it, but not necessarily any wiser.

 

MM

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The source is my experience in Situ.

If you go there and try the organs, this becames

soon obvious; the only real reed chorus you can find

in those organs is on the Pedal; it goes from a 16' alone

up to 32-16-8-4-2 (in the north). And they orvershadow

the flues, in proportion, like in a romantic organ.

On the manuals it is the reverse: the reeds never overtake

the flue choruses.

 

Have a trip there !

 

Pierre

 

==========================

 

 

There's nothing wrong with that approach; especially since the organ would have been known by Bach.

 

I haven't heard this organ live of course, but knowing how dominant the pedal reeds of Schnitger can be, I don't doubt what Pierre is saying for a moment. I think Pierre agrees with my observation that Both Trost and Schnitger produced similar types of pedal reed, (broadly speaking), and what is very striking about the Schnitger reeds I have experienced first hand, is the fact that they have so much fundamental tone, rather than the sharper, more harmonically rich reeds of, say, France. In fact, I know that the manual and pedal reeds together, sound very close to a consort of baroque brass instruments , and can be used without any flues drawn at all.

 

It's all quite a revelation when you hear it at first hand, and completely removed from any English practice of which I am aware.

 

MM

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==========================

 

 

There's nothing wrong with that approach; especially since the organ would have been known by Bach.

 

I haven't heard this organ live of course, but knowing how dominant the pedal reeds of Schnitger can be, I don't doubt what Pierre is saying for a moment. I think Pierre agrees with my observation that Both Trost and Schnitger produced similar types of pedal reed, (broadly speaking), and what is very striking about the Schnitger reeds I have experienced first hand, is the fact that they have so much fundamental tone, rather than the sharper, more harmonically rich reeds of, say, France. In fact, I know that the manual and pedal reeds together, sound very close to a consort of baroque brass instruments , and can be used without any flues drawn at all.

 

It's all quite a revelation when you hear it at first hand, and completely removed from any English practice of which I am aware.

 

MM

 

 

Yes !

 

Trost's (an the others) reeds stops are very like Schnitger's. This is a point where the differencies between

northern and central german organs is little.

But there were fewer reeds stops in Thuringian organs than in Schnitgers; especially, the Regals were seldom

save the Vox humana.

The "Hautbois" (under differing writings like "hauboi" etc) was a kind of Schalmey, somewhere between

the Regal and the modern Hautbois or Oboe. According to Boxberg's description of the Casparini organ of

Görlitz, it was a chorus stop, not a soloist.

Very fundamental tone, indeed, with wood resonators and leathered shallots.

 

(Addenda): It is worthy of note, though, that Gottfried Silbermann introduced french reeds

in the area.

Joachim Wagner took those stops over, and built rather "frenchy" trumpets and Vox humanas,

which correspond to the french standards; a "Grand jeu" can be made in Angermünde,

for instance.

 

Hear on this page the "Klangbeispiel" towards the middle of the page:

 

http://www.angermuender-sommerkonzerte.de/wagner_orgel.htm

 

Pierre

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If you want an "all-purpose organ", this was done here in 1853, and I doubt

we did better since:

 

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ccf5jBalE

 

Pierre

 

=========================

 

 

What a wonderful sounding instrument. I am full of remorse..... self-pity....angst....call it what you will.

 

I have been within spitting-distance of this instrument; usually turning left up the A27 towards Utrecht/Apeldoorn, and I had no idea that it was there and so significant. I think I could live with this instrument.

 

I have heard, (but never played), the Batz instruments at Delft, (under the very capable hands and feet of Bas de Vroome), and have always admired their broad, bold tones, which although "classical" in concept, are more romantic in execution.

 

 

 

MM

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......And I guess it would even suit Bach better than a Schnitger.

 

The Specifications can be found here towards the middle of the page:

 

http://reliwiki.nl/index.php?title=Gorinch..._7_-_Grote_Kerk

 

Pierre

 

 

=========================

 

 

This is where we diverge in opinion, because just as I can say that Howells probably sounds better in Washington National Cathedral than almost any cathedral organ in the Uk save Liverpool, I think I can say with confidence that Bach's music sounds best on something like this:-

 

http://orgelconcerten.ncrv.nl/ncrv?nav=dbvotCsHtGAkBbCeBgE

 

Be sure to go to the last item on the programme first when the small window appears.

 

I'm also fairly certain that like ALL serious organ lovers, Bach would have been in awe of this instrument had he been around to hear it.

 

MM

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Ignoring the state of the organ I think this is appalling and I can't understand why this gentleman is so lauded.

 

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Ignoring the state of the organ I think this is appalling and I can't understand why this gentleman is so lauded.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

 

The funny thing is, when it comes to Gershwin, Bernstein and other American classics, he is right up there with the best.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9BoMF08Ijc...feature=related

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRj2jxcm7A...feature=related

 

 

Like many, I really do not like his organ-playing at all, but I would travel to hear him perform the above,

 

MM

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