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Llandaff is to have a totally new organ in the next few years, the draft stoplist is not out and about yet as far as I know but no doubt the instrument will be an exciting one given the company that is to build it and the importance of its situation. I seem to remember reading that a prime factor in its design will be its part in the liturgy rather than any major repertoire slant so what would you do in the situation? Let's say 55 - 60 stops, nothing contraversial and with a normal cathedral music programme in mind - and what about the nave bridge case?. We haven't had one of these stoplist 'thingies' for a bit and it is the weekend with rain forcast (in the UK at least) so there may be some time available - family and duties permitting. Who will start?

 

AJJ

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Llandaff is to have a totally new organ in the next few years, the draft stoplist is not out and about yet as far as I know but no doubt the instrument will be an exciting one given the company that is to build it and the importance of its situation. I seem to remember reading that a prime factor in its design will be its part in the liturgy rather than any major repertoire slant so what would you do in the situation? Let's say 55 - 60 stops, nothing contraversial and with a normal cathedral music programme in mind - and what about the nave bridge case?. We haven't had one of these stoplist 'thingies' for a bit and it is the weekend with rain forcast (in the UK at least) so there may be some time available - family and duties permitting. Who will start?

 

AJJ

Slightly more scope at Llandaff, Alastair, 76 speaking stops in total.

 

On with the thinking caps!

 

Alistair

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Oh well, here goes my 76 stops. It's decades since I've been to Llandaff and memory is dim; I think I may be trying to cram too much onto the "bridge"? I wasn't sure whether the floating Grand Chorus should have its own pedal coupler, but I decided it would be less confusing if it didn't.

 

Great

1. Bourdon 16

2. Open Diapason I 8

3. Open Diapason II 8

4. Bourdon 8

5. Gamba 8

6. Principal 4

7. Harmonic Flute 4

8. Twelfth 2 2/3

9. Fifteenth 2

10. Mixture (19.22.26.29)

11. Double Trumpet 16

12. Trumpet 8

13. Clarion 4

Swell to Great

Positive to great

Solo to Great

Great/Positive Exchange

 

Swell

14. Quintaton 16

15. Geigen Diapason 8

16. Lieblich Gedeckt 8

17. Salicional 8

18. Voix Céleste 8

19. Principal 4

20. Suabe Flute 4

21. Erzähler 4

22. Nazard 2 2/3

23. Octavin 2

24. Sesquialtera (12.17)

25. Mixture (19,22,26,29)

26. Contra Fagotto 16

27. Trumpet 8

28. Oboe 8

29. Vox Humana 8

30. Clarion 4

Tremulant

Octave

Sub-octave

Unison Off

Solo to Swell

 

Positive

31. Stopped Diapason 8

32. Bell Gamba 8

33. Unda Maris 8

34. Principal 4

35. Open Flute 4

36. Nazard 2 2/3

37. Fifteenth 2

38. Recorder 2

39. Tierce 1 3/5

40. Larigot 1 1/3

41. Cymbal (26.29.33.36)

42. Cromorne 8

Tremulant

Swell to Positive

Solo to Positive

 

Solo

43. Claribel Flute 8

44. Violoncello 8

45. Viole d’orchestre 8

46. Viole Céleste 8

47. Piffaro (II rks) 8

48. Flauto Traverso 4

49. Cor Anglais 16

50. Clarinet 8

Tremulant

51. Orchestral Trumpet 8

52. Orchestral Clarion 4

Octave

Sub-octave

Unison Off

Swell to Solo

 

Grand Chorus (on screen)

53. Open Diapason 8

54. Octave 4

55. Fifteenth 2

56. Mixture (22.26.29)

57. Trompette en Chamade 8

Grand Chorus on Great

Grand Chorus on Swell

Grand Chorus on Positive

Grand Chorus on Solo

 

Pedal

58. Sub Bourdon 32

59. Open Metal 16

60. Open Wood 16

61. Bourdon 16

62. Lieblich Bourdon 16

63. Salicional 16

64. Octave 8*

65. Bourdon 8*

66. Salicional 8*

67. Fifteenth 4*

68. Nachthorn 4*

69. Mixture (19,22,26,29)

70. Bombarde 32

71. Bombarde 16

72. Dulzian 16

73. Trompette 8

74. Fagotto 8*

75. Clairon 4

76. Schalmei 4*

Tremulant (stops marked * only)

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Positive to Pedal

Solo to Pedal

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What does "not controversial" mean ?

The 2500th ecclectic organ ?

 

If the builder is already choosen, why not let him

do what he feels right ?

Given such an opportunity, any good builder will

answer with a masterpiece.

 

Pierre

 

Point taken Pierre!

 

AJJ

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Mine!

 

GREAT

1. Violone 16

2. Open Diapason 8

3. Claribel Flute 8

4. Gamba 8

5. Principal 4

6. Open Flute 4

7. Twelfth 2-2/3

8. Fifteenth 2

9. Mixture 1-1/3 IV

10. Sharp Mixture 1 IV

11. Grand Cornet (TC) 8 V

12. Double Trumpet 16

13. Trumpet 8

14. Clarion 4

 

CHOIR (Enclosed)

15. Stopped Diapason 8

16. Dulciana 8

17. Principal 4

18. Chimney Flute 4

19. Fifteenth 2

20. Recorder 2

21. Sesquialtera 2-2/3 II

22. Mixture 1-1/3 III

23. Cremona 8

Tremulant

 

SWELL

24. Bourdon 16

25. Open Diapason 8

26. Chimney Flute 8

27. Salicional 8

28. Vox Angelica 8

29. Principal 4

30. Tapered Flute 4

31. Gemshorn 2

32. Full Mixture 2 IV

33. Fagotto 16

34. Cornopean 8

35. Oboe 8

36. Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

SOLO (Enclosed)

37. Traverse Flute 8

38. Viola 8

39. Voix Celeste 8

40. Flute 4

41. Nazard 2-2/3

42. Flageolet 2

43. Tierce 1-3/5

44. Larigot 1-1/3

45. Piccolo 1

46. Cor Anglais 16

47. Clarinet 8

48. Vox Humana 8

Tremulant

 

Unenclosed

49. Tuba Mirabilis 8

50. Nave Trumpet 8

 

PEDAL

51. Double Open Wood 32 (Ex. Open)

52. Open Diapason 16

53. Open Wood 16

54. Violone 16 (Gt.)

55. Bourdon 16

56. Stopped Bass 16 (Nave)

57. Principal 8

58. Flute 8 (Ex. Bourdon)

59. Cello 8 (Ex. Violone)

60. Fifteenth 4 (Ex. Principal)

61. Mixture 2-2/3 IV

62. Contra Trombone 32 (Ex. Trombone)

63. Bombarde 16

64. Trombone 16

65. Trumpet 8 (Ex. Bombarde)

 

NAVE

66. Open Diapason 8

67. Stopped Flute 8

68. Principal 4

69. Fifteenth 2

70. Mixture 1-1/3 IV

 

Nave on Great

Nave on Choir

Nave on Solo

 

 

AJJ

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What does "not controversial" mean ?

The 2500th ecclectic organ ?

 

If the builder is already choosen, why not let him

do what he feels right ?

Given such an opportunity, any good builder will

answer with a masterpiece.

 

Pierre

Its going to be done by Nicolsons, its bound to be good!

 

Does anyone know if there are plans to reuse anything that is currently there?

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What?

No tuba?

No Double Open Wood??!

Well, you know - I thought I'd better stick strictly to musical stops. :P I ummed and aahed about the 16' Open Wood, but knew you'd never forgive me if I didn't include one!

 

Best Open Wood I 've come across was the Holzprinzipal on the Swell of the late lamented Klais in Aachen's Dreifaltigskeitkirche - remember that? Clever stop, that was. Mind you I'd still rather have had separate a diapason and flute.

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A tremulant on the pedal organ, Vox?! I guess that could come in really useful..... :P:D

 

And why a stopped double on the Great, when an open double would add more sonority. You already have a stopped double on the Swell - where such things are much more useful! :P

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A tremulant on the pedal organ, Vox?! I guess that could come in really useful..... :P:P

Fun when improvising! :P

 

And why a stopped double on the Great, when an open double would add more sonority. You already have a stopped double on the Swell - where such things are much more useful! :D

For playing French music!

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Fun when improvising! :D

I hadn't thought about that. Could be interesting!

 

For playing French music!

I'd rather a double open on the Great any day, if there's a stopped double on the Swell. Great bourdon = Great boredom! :P

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I hadn't thought about that. Could be interesting!

I'd rather a double open on the Great any day, if there's a stopped double on the Swell. Great bourdon = Great boredom! :P

 

Not necessarily, depends on the stop, I have heard some very effective stopped 16's on the Great.

 

But what interests me is the idea of a pedal tremulant. Could be very effective for solo work on the pedal, perhaps an 8' Violoncello with the Tremulant!

 

Jonathan :D

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Not necessarily, depends on the stop, I have heard some very effective stopped 16's on the Great.

 

But what interests me is the idea of a pedal tremulant. Could be very effective for solo work on the pedal, perhaps an 8' Violoncello with the Tremulant!

 

Jonathan :P

Yes, but I think an open double more desirable on the Great, all other things being equal.

 

I wonder how Vox would have his pedal organ built. Presumably he would have all the stops on which the tremulant operates on one soundboard, and the others on another soundboard, or on individual chests.

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Yes, but I think an open double more desirable on the Great, all other things being equal.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. I have certainly heard a great many manual Bourdons that simply do not work satisfactorily because they merely clog the texture, but as Jonathan points out, good ones work well. On occasions when a French composer asks for a GO Bourdon 16', an open stop rarely sounds right.

 

I wonder how Vox would have his pedal organ built.

Me too! I have to confess I know nothing about organ building. I had imagined that a separate windchest would be needed, but maybe there are other solutions? I realise that the 16' stops would need to be independent ranks (except for the loud reeds). It's an extravagance, of course, but no one mentioned a limit on the budget!

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I wonder how Vox would have his pedal organ built. Presumably he would have all the stops on which the tremulant operates on one soundboard, and the others on another soundboard.....

 

Yes - this is done quite often. Bath Abbey has the 'small' pedal chest (8' stops upwards) at the top of the main case with a fantastic Cello 8' in the facade. The big stuff is behind. 'Can't remember if there is a Tremulant though.

 

AJJ

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A friend of mine was sufficiently interested in acquiring some parts of it to phone Nicholsons. Their reply indicated that there were no plans to include any of the existing material - however that was a good few months ago, and you know how these things can change. There are a couple of nice strings and a Clarinet that might be worth consideration.

 

I'm more interested to see what they do about a case. The biggest downfall of the existing instrument is George Pace's case (not the Positive case on the arch - the main case in the North quire aisle) which allows very little sound out!

 

I can't help wondering if the current positive case will figure in the new scheme at all. They might just decide to abandon it and leave the existing pipework up there. I can't see anybody being sufficiently interested to bother getting it down. Tuning access was via a very tall pair of aluminium steps (if I remember correctly) and a trap door, but given the 'improvements' in H & S legislation since the organ was installed, this is probably not allowed now. It would no doubt have to be one of those rising platforms with a safety rail - the sort they use to get Flymos down from the top shelf in B&Q!

 

S

 

 

Its going to be done by Nicolsons, its bound to be good!

 

Does anyone know if there are plans to reuse anything that is currently there?

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Guest Roffensis
A friend of mine was sufficiently interested in acquiring some parts of it to phone Nicholsons. Their reply indicated that there were no plans to include any of the existing material - however that was a good few months ago, and you know how these things can change. There are a couple of nice strings and a Clarinet that might be worth consideration.

 

I'm more interested to see what they do about a case. The biggest downfall of the existing instrument is George Pace's case (not the Positive case on the arch - the main case in the North quire aisle) which allows very little sound out!

 

I can't help wondering if the current positive case will figure in the new scheme at all. They might just decide to abandon it and leave the existing pipework up there. I can't see anybody being sufficiently interested to bother getting it down. Tuning access was via a very tall pair of aluminium steps (if I remember correctly) and a trap door, but given the 'improvements' in H & S legislation since the organ was installed, this is probably not allowed now. It would no doubt have to be one of those rising platforms with a safety rail - the sort they use to get Flymos down from the top shelf in B&Q!

 

S

 

Or better still, just sling both cases in the bin and start again.

 

They're hardly in keeping with the architecture, are they?

 

I always thought them quite bland.

 

R

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Or better still, just sling both cases in the bin and start again.

 

They're hardly in keeping with the architecture, are they?

 

I always thought them quite bland.

 

R

 

I can't say I like then either, whereas the pulpitum case is quite impressive. I would like to have heard the 1861 Gray & Davison, it was a very well developed specification.

 

Jonathan

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I can't say I like then either, whereas the pulpitum case is quite impressive. I would like to have heard the 1861 Gray & Davison, it was a very well developed specification.

 

Jonathan

You can still hear the 1861 G&D: it's at Usk and has been restored recently by Nicholsons...

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N09835

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