Guest Cynic Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Bearing in mind the wide range of expertise covered by members of this forum, I thought I'd throw out a major challenge/query in the hope that someone will be kind enough to share their experience in order to help with a project of mine. In brief, I am due to record Saint Saens' Sept Improvisations Op.150 quite soon. A number of these are identified on the score as being associated with church festivals, but in others I sense that similar fragments of Gregorian Chant may have be used to provide S-S's initial theme. If I can interest anyone (familiar with traditional chants) in the challenge to spot more themes and identify them, this would be a major help. All such help with be publicly acknowledged. Please PM me if you're willing to collaborate. Thanks folks! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolsey Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Bearing in mind the wide range of expertise covered by members of this forum, I thought I'd throw out a major challenge/query in the hope that someone will be kind enough to share their experience in order to help with a project of mine. In brief, I am due to record Saint Saens' Sept Improvisations Op.150 quite soon. A number of these are identified on the score as being associated with church festivals, but in others I sense that similar fragments of Gregorian Chant may have be used to provide S-S's initial theme. If I can interest anyone (familiar with traditional chants) in the challenge to spot more themes and identify them, this would be a major help. All such help with be publicly acknowledged. Please PM me if you're willing to collaborate. Thanks folks! P. Why not contact Dr Peter Wilton of The Gregorian Association? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Sadly I have no information on what the RCs did in Paris in Saint-Saëns's time; I don't even have a copy of Liber usualis. However: Feria Pentecostes. This is based on the tune I associate with the Christmas hymn Veni redemptor gentium (EH 14; NEH 19). In the Sarum rite it was sung to other hymns as well, including the Whitsun hymn Beata nobis gaudia. Whether the hymn Saint-Saëns had in mind was that one or another others will have to confirm. Pro Defunctis. At the B flat major section this quotes the opening of the Offertory Domine, Jesu Christe. Pro Martyribus. I'll work on this. Can't immediately see anything, but there must be something. Can't say any of the rest (none of which have a liturgical title) strike me as contaning plainsong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Sadly I have no information on what the RCs did in Paris in Saint-Saëns's time; I don't even have a copy of Liber usualis. However: Feria Pentecostes. This is based on the tune I associate with the Christmas hymn Veni redemptor gentium (EH 14; NEH 19). In the Sarum rite it was sung to other hymns as well, including the Whitsun hymn Beata nobis gaudia. Whether the hymn Saint-Saëns had in mind was that one or another others will have to confirm. Pro Defunctis. At the B flat major section this quotes the opening of the Offertory Domine, Jesu Christe. Pro Martyribus. I'll work on this. Can't immediately see anything, but there must be something. Can't say any of the rest (none of which have a liturgical title) strike me as contaning plainsong. Many thanks for your help thus far. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel ALLCOAT Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Bearing in mind the wide range of expertise covered by members of this forum, I thought I'd throw out a major challenge/query in the hope that someone will be kind enough to share their experience in order to help with a project of mine. In brief, I am due to record Saint Saens' Sept Improvisations Op.150 quite soon. A number of these are identified on the score as being associated with church festivals, but in others I sense that similar fragments of Gregorian Chant may have be used to provide S-S's initial theme. If I can interest anyone (familiar with traditional chants) in the challenge to spot more themes and identify them, this would be a major help. All such help with be publicly acknowledged. Please PM me if you're willing to collaborate. Thanks folks! P. Two folk who know everything are Peter Sheehan at the Royal Hospital Chelsea (great Rc and Gregorian buff) and of course the incomparable David Gammie at the Sacred Heart, Wimbledon. I have email addies if you are still wanting material. best wishes, N igel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Clark Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Two folk who know everything are Peter Sheehan at the Royal Hospital Chelsea (great Rc and Gregorian buff) and of course the incomparable David Gammie at the Sacred Heart, Wimbledon. I have email addies if you are still wanting material. best wishes, N igel Paul, another expert source is Dr Mary Berry who can probably be contacted via the Latin Mass Society. I do have a copy of the Liber Usualis - and I use it from time to time - so if you want to send examples of the themes you are trying to chase I could attempt to look these up for you. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nachthorn Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Sadly I have no information on what the RCs did in Paris in Saint-Saëns's time; I don't even have a copy of Liber usualis. Liber Usualis is available as a freely downloadable PDF file from here. There some other useful stuff from the same site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Carr Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Liber Usualis is available as a freely downloadable PDF file from here. There some other useful stuff from the same site. Brilliant link, thanks! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Thanks, Nachthorn. OK then. Pro Martyribus. Starting in bar 6, the lower part in the right hand (below the tied F) quotes the opening of Alleluia. Sancti tui Domine, just for a bar and a half (p.1150 of Liber Usualis; p.1344 of the pdf file). This little phrase reappears later under a long trill. The very end might possibly allude to the concluding Alleluia of the Offertory Laetamini (p.1345-6), but that's arguable. I see Beata nobis gaudia is there on p.1064 of the pdf file. Does LU show essentially the same rite that Saint-Saëns observed? Sorry, later RC history isn't my field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cynic Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Thanks, Nachthorn. OK then. Pro Martyribus. Starting in bar 6, the lower part in the right hand (below the tied F) quotes the opening of Alleluia. Sancti tui Domine, just for a bar and a half (p.1150 of Liber Usualis; p.1344 of the pdf file). This little phrase reappears later under a long trill. The very end might possibly allude to the concluding Alleluia of the Offertory Laetamini (p.1345-6), but that's arguable. I see Beata nobis gaudia is there on p.1064 of the pdf file. Does LU show essentially the same rite that Saint-Saëns observed? Sorry, later RC history isn't my field! Your'e doing well. I'm most grateful. I still think that others have Gregorian themes, or at the very least some allusions which in 1918 would have meant something to Catholic organists. The last one, for instance, even though firmly in A minor has a real Easter feel to it. Even if it does not quote, the theme is modal (indeed I think all themes are, throughout the whole set.). At moments like this, I really miss an old pal, Father Charles Watson of Prinknash Abbey who died almost exactly a year ago. He no longer used the traditional chants for worship there, but they were part of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Coleman Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Does LU show essentially the same rite that Saint-Saëns observed? Sorry, later RC history isn't my field! Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vox Humana Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Thanks, Patrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgp Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 The last one, for instance, even though firmly in A minor has a real Easter feel to it. Even if it does not quote, the theme is modal (indeed I think all themes are, throughout the whole set.). I think bars 16-19 of no 7 are O fillii et filiae - which is proper for Easter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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