An Organ To Be Hated Or Loved?

[Guest spottedmetal]

Hi!

 

It is always a pleasure to dip into these boards and find so many people with interesting enlightenment, strong opinions and the courage to battle for them. I'm having one of those battles privately about a lovely organ, which I regard as an important and exciting instrument, on which I grew up and thought it would benefit from wider enlightenment.

 

The organ in question might be made redundant because the current organist hates it. Not only the organist but the priest into the bargain . . . What hope can such an instrument have?

 

I have put sound samples on

http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp3/organ/hated-organ/

and apologise for the low bass response of the microphone and the distortion on the hooters . . . :-)

 

The organist is an old friend. Should I risk falling out with him or should my ears be re-educated? Should I quietly curl up in a corner and let it just go on . . . or should I stick my neck out? If the latter, does anyone want to add to my head to be guillotined?

 

I posted the conundrum on the Hauptwerk forum for "sound-sample connoisseurs" to judge the sounds and comment and expected a little more hot-chilli sauce in the responses. I suspect that that's the sort of definition and spice that the organist is looking for when playing this organ . . . What to do . . . ?

 

What repertoire was written for an organ like this? Does anything come to mind . . . ?

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Spottedmetal

 

P.S. Sorry that this post, based on samples of each stop is such a blindfold test - I have deliberately wanted to keep it that way to preserve objectivity although I'm sure that some people will guess the maker. If you can identify the organ, please can you email me privately rather than posting it publicly here?

[Pierre Lauwers]

I cannot identify the organ, but I can say I am accustomed to this

kind of sound trough what I heard in Britain in the 70's, and trough

the some records I came back with each year during that period.

It seems to be what I call a "Post-romantic" organ, with somewhat

typical reeds and -mega-big scaled- Diapasons.

Such organs aren't "bad", rather out of fashion.

Save the case of big problems (very poor quality, heavy damages

by water, fire..) which I of course cannot have any knowledge of,

in principle such an organ we must keep, if not in its today place,

at least elsewhere.

(Belgium or the Netherlands included!)

 

I shall place a link to these interesting files on the french forum,

the reactions there could be interesting.

 

"What repertoire was written for an organ like this? Does anything come to mind . . . ? "

(Quote)

 

First to accompany the splendid english choral works. "It is made for that"

(c'est fait pour ça!);

Herbert Howells, Max Reger, Franz Liszt, Marcel Dupré, Elgar (of course), Karg-Elert...

and orchestral transcriptions of all kinds. Enough for many, many hours of music...

 

Pierre

[Guest spottedmetal]

I shall place a link to these interesting files on the french forum,

the reactions there could be interesting.

Brilliant - thanks - look forward to the responses!

 

Having yesterday found and documented 7 organs of various sizes for sale on Ebay, and having experienced the sight of an organ the day before being demolished inside a building by bulldozers, I see the organ as an instrument in terrible danger. We are at a watershed of near total loss, of culture, of repertoire and of fabulous music by composers whose names should be as well known as Beethoven and Brahms but are not, only for the reason that they composed for the organ rather than the orchestra.

 

It's for this reason that I think that now, more than at any time before, we need to preserve all that exists as much as possible, and to adopt more "historic building preservation philosophy" in organ preservation, akin to to laying down new layers of paint without stripping away the former layers. In this way, layers of history can be laid down and understood in context.

 

Were it appropriate to preserve the "hated" organ, I have in mind possibilities that could be applied in this case, but what would others do? Were the powers that be to be persuaded in the direction of preservation, should preservation be carried out as if putting the instrument in aspic, or should changes be contemplated? If the latter, should the course of changes be followed - or additions which could be distinguishable from the original instrument?

 

Best wishes

 

Spottedmetal

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

I agree completely with Pierre. There is nothing at all wrong with this organ, though some on this forum will not like it, as evidently the organist and priest do not.

 

It would help to have an idea of what exactly is thought to be wrong with it, and why the repertoire in that mysterous place cannot be developed around the existing instrument.

 

If they are giving it away, I'm sure there are many who would be glad of it, though as with so many things, rather than make the effort to save or preserve it, most seem to prefer to expect money to appear from thin air for the rebuild or transfer of an instrument.

 

In this area, where once there were countless instruments, including two of some distinction, there are only four good organs left, and only one of those has any claim to distinction at all. Most have been ripped out or thrown on the skip. What has been saved has been due to the constant interest and backbreaking labour of one man, which is why there is no space in any available building throughout the borough of Blaenau Gwent and beyond that does not contain organ pipes, chests, trunking and other major parts awaiting a new home.

 

I began writing this post before spottedmetal put up his second post, and we are in complete agreement there as well. His website says it all.

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

If the latter, should the course of changes be followed - or additions which could be distinguishable from the original instrument?

Spottedmetal

 

Wouldn't a few judiciously added mutations/mixtures allow for a different sound?

[pwhodges]

the sight of an organ the day before being demolished inside a building by bulldozers

This is terribly sad, but the threat at least is not totally new. This 4-manual organ was rescued from a church about to be bulldozed (I, as a student, was one of the amateur rebuilders).

 

Paul

[Pierre Lauwers]

Wouldn't a few judiciously added mutations/mixtures allow for a different sound?

 

I would avoid it....

 

Pierre

[Guest Cynic]

Brilliant - thanks - look forward to the responses!

 

Having yesterday found and documented 7 organs of various sizes for sale on Ebay, and having experienced the sight of an organ the day before being demolished inside a building by bulldozers, I see the organ as an instrument in terrible danger. We are at a watershed of near total loss, of culture, of repertoire and of fabulous music by composers whose names should be as well known as Beethoven and Brahms but are not, only for the reason that they composed for the organ rather than the orchestra.

 

It's for this reason that I think that now, more than at any time before, we need to preserve all that exists as much as possible, and to adopt more "historic building preservation philosophy" in organ preservation, akin to to laying down new layers of paint without stripping away the former layers. In this way, layers of history can be laid down and understood in context.

 

Were it appropriate to preserve the "hated" organ, I have in mind possibilities that could be applied in this case, but what would others do? Were the powers that be to be persuaded in the direction of preservation, should preservation be carried out as if putting the instrument in aspic, or should changes be contemplated? If the latter, should the course of changes be followed - or additions which could be distinguishable from the original instrument?

 

Best wishes

 

Spottedmetal

 

All power to your elbow. Unfortunately, you are rather the opposite end of the country from me or I would offer more help than just warm words.

However, fascinated by your initiative, I have signed on to be updated on the progress of your redundant and 'for sale' page.

 

All you can do is keep making sure that people know what is going on. Like you, I have been on the scene only just in the nick of time on several occasions. I would love to know where the large instrument complete with Great 16' Tromba is! That would be a wonderful quarry for pipework if nothing else. I have been known to travel for good pipework! I also know of others who are looking for particular things.

 

The sorry tale of churches with organs but without funds/taste/keen musicians is a can of worms - not necessarily anyone's fault but very sad. The superb workmanship of some redundant stuff these days is a crying shame. There are glimmers of hope, mind you. Many of these come over from Europe!

 

Good luck, anyway.

P.

 

 

P.S. A kind friend has just e-mailed me to tell me which organ this is. I am sure that somewhere in Europe someone would have a good use for this complete. Be warned, Pierre, it'll need a large building to sound it's best. I enjoyed listening to it live a year or so back, but it certainly is Bold!! In this country, only a Town Hall could cope with its output - or another school chapel, of course. I'm prepared to bet that Saturday night chapel singing will get more difficult to control once the new, expensive and politically correct 'vegetarian'* organ goes in.

 

*This is an expression of a friend of mine. I find it particularly apt in the case of organs where the pressure has had to be kept low in order to have the 'approved' mechanical action, leaving all the reed stops sounding thin and brittle because they're trying to speak on an inadequate pressure.

 

P.P.S. A further thought: seeing that they are occasionally asked to provide stops in the style of their earlier work, it would be a good idea of unwanted organs could sometimes be offered back (free of charge) to their original makers, if those are still in business. Wonder if this idea might catch on? This could save quite a bit on new organs. Even the job of putting new languids in, or lowering a cut-up by trimming at the mouth seam and resoldering are small tasks comparative to the cost of brand new pipes. There are several late 19th century Nicholson ranks incorporated into the new Nicholson organ on the screen at Southwell Minster - very good they are too - they set the style for the whole job and saved money.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Thanks, Paul,

 

Belgian churches tend to be vast, and devoid of carpetry

and others sound-catching furnitures; 4-5 seconds reverberation

is normal in an average church.

 

Here are the first comments on the french forum:

 

"confiture aux cochons = pearls before the swines, ou qqchose comme ça..."

 

"J'en veux bien quand ils veulent!!!

Je n'arrive toujours pas à comprendre pourquoi on peut encore vouloir jeter ces instruments de la sorte..."

 

"provoc'... ne pas chercher à comprendre."

 

"Pour ma part, j'accepte les livraisons à domicile, si ils insistent !

(Bon, je ne sais pas où je le mettrais, mais on trouve toujours un peu de place !)"

[PF Baron]

We might be prepared to accept a donation.....!

[Guest spottedmetal]

P.S. A kind friend has just e-mailed me to tell me which organ this is. I am sure that somewhere in Europe someone would have a good use for this complete. Be warned, Pierre, it'll need a large building to sound it's best. I enjoyed listening to it live a year or so back, but it certainly is Bold!! In this country, only a Town Hall could cope with its output - or another school chapel, of course. I'm prepared to bet that Saturday night chapel singing will get more difficult to control once the new, expensive and politically correct 'vegetarian'* organ goes in..

 

Hi!

 

Yes - that's the point, this organ was designed for its space, for its building and for the acoustics of that building. IMHO nothing else will sound as good, nor will this organ sound as good out of context.

 

I'm disappointed that clues have been dropped on the forum as I had hoped to put the organists criticism of each rank whilst trying to preserve the anonymity of all concerned, and now fear that this can't be done. I'd have liked a set of responses which I could show to the people concerned in private.

 

Presumably it was Pierre who knew the organ? I'd be amused to hear privately what clues led to a slight blowing of cover . . .

 

Many thanks anyway - the comments coming in already are most helpful and I'm looking forward to more. What is particularly noticably absent is any consensus that a "vegetarian organ" (I love that concept!) would be progress in this place . . .

 

Best wishes

 

Spottedmetal

 

 

PS By the way, I'm conscious of that Hunter at Graffham losing time - as a Newbie I really don't want to be seen posting to many threads - but, although I have not seen it, Hunter often used spotted metal and prodiced instruments of good quality. However, from my own experience, clamp-ons where often provided for and if used, make space to work rather cramped. Sure it's a good organ though.

[Tony Newnham]

Brilliant - thanks - look forward to the responses!

 

Having yesterday found and documented 7 organs of various sizes for sale on Ebay, and having experienced the sight of an organ the day before being demolished inside a building by bulldozers, I see the organ as an instrument in terrible danger. We are at a watershed of near total loss, of culture, of repertoire and of fabulous music by composers whose names should be as well known as Beethoven and Brahms but are not, only for the reason that they composed for the organ rather than the orchestra.

 

It's for this reason that I think that now, more than at any time before, we need to preserve all that exists as much as possible, and to adopt more "historic building preservation philosophy" in organ preservation, akin to to laying down new layers of paint without stripping away the former layers. In this way, layers of history can be laid down and understood in context.

 

Were it appropriate to preserve the "hated" organ, I have in mind possibilities that could be applied in this case, but what would others do? Were the powers that be to be persuaded in the direction of preservation, should preservation be carried out as if putting the instrument in aspic, or should changes be contemplated? If the latter, should the course of changes be followed - or additions which could be distinguishable from the original instrument?

 

Best wishes

 

Spottedmetal

 

Hi

 

BIOS are already do a fair amount in this direction - and the IBO have a "redundant organs" page on their website. The problem is that an organ is often not now seen as essential for Christian worship (but then it never has been) - and the church is not in the business of running a museum. If an organ is retained, it has to be capable of fullinging the role that's appropriate for 2007 and onwards. For this reason, when our organ was restored, I had the builder keep the pitch at A=440Hz because it's used regularly with other instruments. A certain Roman Catholic cathedral have decided to retain the existing high pitch of their rebuilt organ - making it difficult or impossible to use with orchestral forces. And what about Reading Town Hall organ - same problem.

 

I appreciate the need to preserve a representative selection of pipe organ styles - we can learn a lot from playing repertoire on an appropriate instrument - but an historic organ isn't always a sensible option in a church, so why should the church be expected to fund restoration?

 

I think we need some reality in the preservation arena - "preserve at all costs" isn't always a viable option.

 

The problem of redundant organs is magnified by the number of churches that are closing - or reordering/replacing buildings. There are 2 organs locally that are almost crtainly going to end up being scrapped - one is a mid-1800's Bishop with various additions/rebuilds, the other a Binns-style rebuild of a very early Binns - both sit unused in churches where there's no organist - and one of the church buildings needs around £500,000 worth of work to stop it becoming unuseable.

 

I'm all for the relocation of good redundant organs - but there is a limit to the available venues.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[sprondel]

I'm all for the relocation of good redundant organs - but there is a limit to the available venues.

In Freiburg, where I live, there are at least two vast catholic churches who urgently need new organs of considerable size and output, and funds are low. One church is near the train station, the Herz-Jesu-Kirche. It was modelled after the romanesque Limburg cathedral with twin-tower front and a chasm of a nave. The other one is the very parish church of the city opposite the town hall, medieval St. Martin. Architecturally, it is a monumental barn, but also the preferred concert venue of most choirs here. What is there is beyond imagination -- cheapest post-war junk, tilted and sagging display pipes in zinc in both cases. I think our host might know both places.

 

If only the right people knew ...

 

It wouldn't be easy to smuggle those Trombas past the official consultant though, who is an eager supporter of Metzler.

 

Best,

Friedrich

[Vox Humana]

I wonder how often our redundant organs go west. I was slightly surprised to stumble across this one.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"It wouldn't be easy to smuggle those Trombas past the official consultant though, who is an eager supporter of Metzler."

(Quote)

 

This is a well-known german problem...But no worry, we need such organs too

in Belgium!

To deprive it of its Trombas would be to deprive a Plum-pudding of its sauce

and the Brandy as well.

 

Pierre

[Guest Barry Oakley]

Hi

 

BIOS are already do a fair amount in this direction - and the IBO have a "redundant organs" page on their website. The problem is that an organ is often not now seen as essential for Christian worship (but then it never has been) - and the church is not in the business of running a museum. If an organ is retained, it has to be capable of fullinging the role that's appropriate for 2007 and onwards. For this reason, when our organ was restored, I had the builder keep the pitch at A=440Hz because it's used regularly with other instruments. A certain Roman Catholic cathedral have decided to retain the existing high pitch of their rebuilt organ - making it difficult or impossible to use with orchestral forces. And what about Reading Town Hall organ - same problem.

 

I appreciate the need to preserve a representative selection of pipe organ styles - we can learn a lot from playing repertoire on an appropriate instrument - but an historic organ isn't always a sensible option in a church, so why should the church be expected to fund restoration?

 

I think we need some reality in the preservation arena - "preserve at all costs" isn't always a viable option.

 

The problem of redundant organs is magnified by the number of churches that are closing - or reordering/replacing buildings. There are 2 organs locally that are almost crtainly going to end up being scrapped - one is a mid-1800's Bishop with various additions/rebuilds, the other a Binns-style rebuild of a very early Binns - both sit unused in churches where there's no organist - and one of the church buildings needs around £500,000 worth of work to stop it becoming unuseable.

 

I'm all for the relocation of good redundant organs - but there is a limit to the available venues.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

[/quote}

Whenever I read pieces like this, my mind goes immediately (please forgive me for resurrecting the particular topic), the organ in Holy Trinity, Hull, the city’s “cathedral.” It’s going to need £600 to £700K to bring it back to its former glory and yet I can’t imagine how the money is ever going to be raised.

 

Gone are the city’s big companies of the 1960’s that were all of a civic mind and could be relied upon to put their hands deep into their pockets to help preserve worthwhile causes in Hull.

 

In the intervening period the church has been “blessed” with philistine, happy-clappy incumbents who have displayed an amazing amount of ignorance as to the value of Holy Trinity’s organ. Yes, I know it does represent a legacy of the 1930’s and when 500 people would regularly attend matins and even more for evensong, but some legacies are worth preserving, especially those in a cathedral-like church such as Holy Trinity.

 

The availability of funds is not helped by the way the National Lottery is being wantonly plundered all for an event (something that has become a four-yearly world rat race) that will give two weeks of pleasure and then effectively become a nine-day wonder. I refer, of course, to the Olympic Games. And it is not only affecting the availability of money for preserving organs, but for human need too.

 

Apologies if you think this is a mindless rant, but I do think it is time long-term priorities were reappraised and we stopped building ever more expensive national cathedrals to sport as well as the continued support given to Chinese firework manufacturers.

 

B

[gazman]

Hear, hear Barry!

[Guest Cynic]

The answer to the problems of the organ under discussion here is that the present owners should remember that they have other buildings!

The ambitious musician ought to be able to see the virtue of having more than one organ. If he doesn't enjoy playing the lovely romantic beastie some of us have been slavering over, a state of the art, politically correct, puritan organ of vegetarian character could be installed elsewhere which would then give him and his students experience of more than one style and double the practice facilities.

 

This is what Eton College have done.

Organ 1* - 4-manual Hill - pneumatic action

Organ 2 - by Flentrop incorporating historic Dutch pipework and case - tracker action throughout

Organ 3 - purpose-built new(ish) Kenneth Tickell in broadly French Symphonic style - tracker key action, electric stop action

So, if you can't play something convincingly on the Hill, you only have to walk a few hundred yards down the road.

 

*At the risk of irritating one and all by parading one of my betes noir again, it is worth adding that Organ 1 (above) was 'modernized' and added to under the personal supervision of the present Chairman of BIOS in the 70s only for these musical and stylistic interferences to be painstakingly undone again (in true conservationist spirit) by N.P.Mander and Co. some years later.

[Guest spottedmetal]

The answer to the problems of the organ under discussion here is that the present owners should remember that they have other buildings!

The ambitious musician ought to be able to see the virtue of having more than one organ. If he doesn't enjoy playing the lovely romantic beastie some of us have been slavering over, a state of the art, politically correct, puritan organ of vegetarian character could be installed elsewhere which would then give him and his students experience of more than one style and double the practice facilities.

 

Hi!

 

Yes - of course . . . and there is a lovely under used large hall to put one in at the end . . . or there are possibly two other solutions which I'd be happy to discuss privately rather than in public. How best to get the message across to those responsible for the decision making?

 

Best wishes

 

Spottedmetal

[Guest Cynic]

Hi!

 

Yes - of course . . . and there is a lovely under used large hall to put one in at the end . . . or there are possibly two other solutions which I'd be happy to discuss privately rather than in public. How best to get the message across to those responsible for the decision making?

 

Best wishes

 

Spottedmetal

 

How about BIOS? If a team went down and reminded the present owners that what they have is virtually an untouched specimen of the best work of a premier firm, that in due course it may qualify for grant-aiding, that it is now rare, that this present dislike is a fashion and like all fashions will eventually change.... might this make those who have to sign on the dotted line for a replacement think again? It won't be the musicians who have to find the money!

 

The organ which comes to mind at this point is Malvern Priory. Maybe ten years ago an appeal leaflet was produced by the parish, acting on advice from their Cathedral organist. They were appealing for massive funding (from memory, £600k) to replace virtually the whole instrument with something which 'represents current thinking', regardless of the fact that what they had was a complete and celebrated example of the work of Rushworth and Dreaper - indeed the largest organ from R&D's only good period!

 

In this case, I think it was back-stage shaming that eventually turned the tide, indeed I think I know the man who caused the main fuss (later to become President of the RCO etc.) Anyway, many letters were written and the PCC became aware of outside criticism and the plan was changed. Nicholsons (who had previously said that practical restoration was impossible) got just as much work out of the re-thought scheme - this involved new chests virtually throughout. What The Priory now has is 1920s pipework sensibly spruced up with a new layout and modern mechanisms. I may be correct in saying that the clergy got a larger vestry out of it as well.

 

Unfortunately, if our guess is right as to where your target 'unloved' organ is, this method cannot be guaranteed to work, though letters to those in authority over the musicians might help. How many friends of (shall we say?) the same background as yourself can you muster? An opportunity for a petition perhaps? There is another way...become a donor for a new organ on condition that the present one is (at the very least) mothballed. Not knowing your circumstances, I cannot say whether your donation would be sufficiently large for it to be taken notice of.

 

Fight the good fight!

[Tony Newnham]

Whenever I read pieces like this, my mind goes immediately (please forgive me for resurrecting the particular topic), the organ in Holy Trinity, Hull, the city’s “cathedral.” It’s going to need £600 to £700K to bring it back to its former glory and yet I can’t imagine how the money is ever going to be raised.

 

Gone are the city’s big companies of the 1960’s that were all of a civic mind and could be relied upon to put their hands deep into their pockets to help preserve worthwhile causes in Hull.

 

In the intervening period the church has been “blessed” with philistine, happy-clappy incumbents who have displayed an amazing amount of ignorance as to the value of Holy Trinity’s organ. Yes, I know it does represent a legacy of the 1930’s and when 500 people would regularly attend matins and even more for evensong, but some legacies are worth preserving, especially those in a cathedral-like church such as Holy Trinity.

 

The availability of funds is not helped by the way the National Lottery is being wantonly plundered all for an event (something that has become a four-yearly world rat race) that will give two weeks of pleasure and then effectively become a nine-day wonder. I refer, of course, to the Olympic Games. And it is not only affecting the availability of money for preserving organs, but for human need too.

 

Apologies if you think this is a mindless rant, but I do think it is time long-term priorities were reappraised and we stopped building ever more expensive national cathedrals to sport as well as the continued support given to Chinese firework manufacturers.

 

B

 

Hi

 

Not a mindless rant -although the comment about non-traditional clergy is FAR from helpful and shows a lack of respect for other points of view. There is a need to educate not only clergy, but many ordinary church members, to the role that a good organ can play - even in contemporary worship. Raising their hackles and making rude comments only serves to reinforce their existing stance.

 

The other issue, of course, is where the money comes from - I thoroughly agree about the gross waste of money on the Olympics (a project that will, no doubt, cost far more than the estimates - and probably be late being completed if the recent debacle at Wembley is anything to go by!). Strange as it may seem, churches have other priorites for spending money than restoring over-large pipe organs.

 

I hope the Hull instrument is restored - likle them or loathe them, big Comptons are part of the nation's organ heritage.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[Lucasorg]

How about BIOS? If a team went down and reminded the present owners that what they have is virtually an untouched specimen of the best work of a premier firm, that in due course it may qualify for grant-aiding, that it is now rare, that this present dislike is a fashion and like all fashions will eventually change.... might this make those who have to sign on the dotted line for a replacement think again? It won't be the musicians who have to find the money!

 

The organ which comes to mind at this point is Malvern Priory. Maybe ten years ago an appeal leaflet was produced by the parish, acting on advice from their Cathedral organist. They were appealing for massive funding (from memory, £600k) to replace virtually the whole instrument with something which 'represents current thinking', regardless of the fact that what they had was a complete and celebrated example of the work of Rushworth and Dreaper - indeed the largest organ from R&D's only good period!

 

In this case, I think it was back-stage shaming that eventually turned the tide, indeed I think I know the man who caused the main fuss (later to become President of the RCO etc.) Anyway, many letters were written and the PCC became aware of outside criticism and the plan was changed. Nicholsons (who had previously said that practical restoration was impossible) got just as much work out of the re-thought scheme - this involved new chests virtually throughout. What The Priory now has is 1920s pipework sensibly spruced up with a new layout and modern mechanisms. I may be correct is saying that the clergy got a larger vestry out of it as well.

 

Unfortunately, if our guess is right as to where your target 'unloved' organ is, this method cannot be guaranteed to work, though letters to those in authority over the musicians might help. How many friends of (shall we say?) the same background as yourself can you muster? An opportunity for a petition perhaps? There is another way...become a donor for a new organ on condition that the present one is (at the very least) mothballed. Not knowing your circumstances, I cannot say whether your donation would be sufficiently large for it to be taken notice of.

 

Fight the good fight!

Dear Cynic,

 

It is always easy to criticise from outside. Whilst working for Malvern Priory in the context of the organ rebuild, my brief was to find a scheme which would steer a line carefully between preservation and development for the better maintenance of worship there. There are many paths through any minefield and both the original scheme and the final one had great merits in all areas.

 

If the argument comes down to whether Nicholsons or Rushworths were the better builder, I am sure we will all have differing opinions. Ultimately, the Priory has a fine instrument which will continue to give excellent service for many years to come and for that we should be grateful for the skills of both those builders as well as the present-day Nicholsons who carried out the recent work.

 

Adrian Lucas

"their Cathedral Organist"

[Guest Cynic]

Dear Cynic,

 

It is always easy to criticise from outside. Whilst working for Malvern Priory in the context of the organ rebuild, my brief was to find a scheme which would steer a line carefully between preservation and development for the better maintenance of worship there. There are many paths through any minefield and both the original scheme and the final one had great merits in all areas.

 

If the argument comes down to whether Nicholsons or Rushworths were the better builder, I am sure we will all have differing opinions. Ultimately, the Priory has a fine instrument which will continue to give excellent service for many years to come and for that we should be grateful for the skills of both those builders as well as the present-day Nicholsons who carried out the recent work.

 

Adrian Lucas

"their Cathedral Organist"

 

 

Point taken. I entirely accept and appreciate this contribution to the debate.

I would not like (ever) to have to choose between two well-made and carefully thought-out instruments of different styles. Anyone who decides to reject one in favour of the other is taking on a major responsibility and they must not be surprised when there are (more or less inevitably) other opinions on the matter.

 

The outcome at Malvern, we seem to be agreed, is a satisfactory one. Here's hoping for the instrument that is the subject of the present topic!

[JohnR]

The problem of redundant organs is magnified by the number of churches that are closing - or reordering/replacing buildings. There are 2 organs locally that are almost crtainly going to end up being scrapped - one is a mid-1800's Bishop with various additions/rebuilds, the other a Binns-style rebuild of a very early Binns - both sit unused in churches where there's no organist - and one of the church buildings needs around £500,000 worth of work to stop it becoming unuseable.

 

I'm all for the relocation of good redundant organs - but there is a limit to the available venues.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

The early Binns organ you mention sound interesting. Are you able to say the original date and allowed to say where it is on this forum? I'm currently involved with an organ containing Binns voiced pipework which is proving interesting. We are looking for some pipework of preferably similar date and style to add to it. I may be a bit over eager of course!

 

Regards,

 

John R

[Tony Newnham]

The early Binns organ you mention sound interesting. Are you able to say the original date and allowed to say where it is on this forum? I'm currently involved with an organ containing Binns voiced pipework which is proving interesting. We are looking for some pipework of preferably similar date and style to add to it. I may be a bit over eager of course!

 

Regards,

 

John R

 

Hi

 

I don't mind saying where - but I don't know if or when it will be available - I would want to encourage the church to retain it if at all possible - even if it can't be restored as yet. Obviously, the church's priority is the building (and, at present, finding a new minister).

 

It's Westgate Baptist Church in Manningham, Bradford - see http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N05103

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony