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As it is becoming a known thing, that the british organ idiosyncrasies meet

with a growing interest abroad, I launch this experimental Topic, in the hope

it won't degenerate towards something I would have no reason to be proud of.

 

The purpose is:

 

-To gather scalings, mouths heights etc

 

-To gather details about the Dulciana choruses before it's too late

(I wonder how much Dulciana choruses up to mixture still exist...)

 

So the one, who has data, may begin.

 

If it works, we could do the same with reeds, Diapasons etc.

 

Pierre

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If it works, we could do the same with reeds, Diapasons etc.

 

Like for instance a complete set of T.C. Lewis Lieblichs from 16' to 2' - I remember the first time I heard this effect - here possibly - before it burnt down. Quite an amazing sound. There are still a few around I think even if they have been re planted in an 'alien envionment' such as here. My all time favourite though is here - just listen to those flutes!

 

AJJ

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT

Quite the most interesting Dulciana I have come across is by an unknown builder in what was once a house organ built for George III's doctor/physician. It was then taken from the Great Hall of the house and transferred to the tiny church of Newton Harcourt, where it still remains. The Dulciana (which must date from the last years of the 18th Century) is on a two manual G compass organ in a lovely Mahogany case. The 2nd manual is short compass and enclosed in a nag's head swell with two flutes of 8 & 4 as well as an Hautboy. All quite ravishing actually, and when the box closes the Dulciana just about disappears.

 

The Topic title reminded me of happy times there.

 

All the best,

Nigel

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Thanks Nigel,

 

We must never forget our Dulciana to be first a typical baroque stop.

It was introduced in Britain by Johann Schnetzler, as an inverted-conical

stop akin to the Dolcan (or: Dolkan) from the southern german area.

It remained to Samuel Green to transform it into a kind of "diminutive Diapason",

with plain cylindric pipes.

There is a good sound file here:

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N06361

 

In Battishill's Madrigal we hear the Dulciana (right hand) accompanied by a Stopped Diapason

(left hand) which is even somewhat too loud.

 

 

Pierre

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Like for instance a complete set of T.C. Lewis Lieblichs from 16' to 2' - I remember the first time I heard this effect - here possibly - before it burnt down. Quite an amazing sound.

AJJ

 

Oh - a sadly missed instrument! I used to practise at least once a week on this organ as a student. (The organist at the time was Peter Chase, one of my college lecturers.) I miss not only this superb instrument (even without the lowest twelve notes of the 32ft. reed), but also the church. I have to confess that its replacement leaves me cold. It is considerably smaller, less lofty, plain (almost to the point of being clinical) and somewhat devoid of character. I loved the wealth of flutes on the old organ - the G.O. alone had stopped and open flutes in two pitches. Somewhere I have a few photographs which I took of the organ (and possibly the church) before the fire. Included is a picture showing the old stop-jambs of the former 'Lewis' console, which were up in the gallery behind the console, leaning against the wall.

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As it is becoming a known thing, that the british organ idiosyncrasies meet

with a growing interest abroad, I launch this experimental Topic, in the hope

it won't degenerate towards something I would have no reason to be proud of.

 

The purpose is:

 

-To gather scalings, mouths heights etc

 

-To gather details about the Dulciana choruses before it's too late

(I wonder how much Dulciana choruses up to mixture still exist...)

 

So the one, who has data, may begin.

 

If it works, we could do the same with reeds, Diapasons etc.

 

Pierre

 

At present, I am having difficulty finding any. Liverpool (Anglican) Cathedral threw theirs out during the restoration of 1958 - 60. In any case, whilst the Dulciana chorus was on an open soundboard, the V-rank Dulciana Mixture was always under expression, for greater flexibility.

 

Ely Cathedral came a little closer with this:

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N03011

 

However, as is known, this was altered in 1958 and largely removed in 1976 (and not re-instated in 2001).

 

The nearest surviving scheme I can find so far is this:

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N04108

 

However, in this case, two of the constituent pitches are salicionals (and the 2ft. is incorporated in the Mixture); whilst these are not greatly different in timbre and power, they are not quite the same.

 

The H&H instrument at the Colston Hall, Bristol has a small chorus - but only at 16ft., 8ft. and 4ft. pitch.

 

In this country at any rate, I fear that most examples have either been truncated, or largely removed.

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At present, I am having difficulty finding any. Liverpool (Anglican) Cathedral threw theirs out during the restoration of 1958 - 60. In any case, whilst the Dulciana chorus was on an open soundboard, the V-rank Dulciana Mixture was always under expression, for greater flexibility.

 

/quote]

 

We still have some of the Liverpool ranks in storage.

 

That aside, we also still have every technical detail regarding the scales and manufacture of all of the (original!) pipework in the job. Nothing is lost but as Pierre rightly comments, simply out of fashion.

 

DW

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"In this country at any rate, I fear that most examples have either been truncated, or largely removed."

(Quote)

 

And do you think there obtains such things abroad ?

Endangered species...

It is of course interesting to know some ranks, and data,

are kept. But what if that stupid sattelite we expect on our

heads in the days to come chooses Liverpool as landing place,

in flames, before exploding with a superb attack noise ?

 

Pierre

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
We must never forget our Dulciana to be first a typical baroque stop.

It was introduced in Britain by Johann Schnetzler, as an inverted-conical

stop akin to the Dolcan (or: Dolkan) from the southern german area.

 

Remembering vividly my Discussion Board's topic and after teaching at Clare College this afternoon, I asked to play the Snetzler (1750's). On it is a delicious and opaque Dulciana. Furthermore, other stops of great beauty.

 

Best wishes,

Nigel

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St Mary Redcliffe has a Contra Dulciana 16, Dulciana 8, and Salicet 4 on the Choir with a Dulciana Mixture at 15, 19 and 22 on the Echo.

 

Does this make it a contender?

 

Of course it does.

So we have the Willis and the H&H types.

And this one here without tierce rank.

 

Pierre

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this one....

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N10984

has a full dulciana chorus from 16' to mixture, including a twelfth......Prof Tracy was organist here before he went to Liverpool Cathedral. Nice Compton rebuild of a Rushworth and Dreaper, but being a Compton rebuild, I wouldn't be surprised if it were an extended rank. Still a very nice sound, sort of an echo great, but a bit feeble for a second chorus in Bach.

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Interesting !

 

Of course such choruses are better for Reger than Bach.

But it was actually aimed, originally, at "an ancient Diapason

chorus flavour", as Bonavia-Hunt wrote it.

Compton's scales would be worth inventoring too -he was

a master in that discipline- in order we remember how the extended

version was designed.

Such things must be kept. We needed 75 years to find the true

baroque Cornet back -let alone all the rest!- so the lesson is clear...

 

Pierre

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Another example can be found at Leeds Parish Church

 

The extended Dulciana chorus on the Chioir was not there at the time of the 1948 NPOR survey but it is in place by the time of the 1999 survey. I assume that it dates from Harrison's work completed in 1949 (?).

 

If you enter the search term

 

“Leeds Parish Church” dulciana

 

in Google and then look at the second result you will find some interesting references to the echo dulciana and echo dulciana cornet in Organa Britannica: Organs in Great Britain 1660-1860.

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
Another example can be found at Leeds Parish Church

 

The extended Dulciana chorus on the Chioir was not there at the time of the 1948 NPOR survey but it is in place by the time of the 1999 survey. I assume that it dates from Harrison's work completed in 1949 (?).

 

If you enter the search term

 

“Leeds Parish Church” dulciana

 

in Google and then look at the second result you will find some interesting references to the echo dulciana and echo dulciana cornet in Organa Britannica: Organs in Great Britain 1660-1860.

 

In the description of the organ built for the Union Chapel Islington in December 1867 by Mr G.M. Holdich from a specification of Dr Gauntlett, there is on the Swell an Echo Dulciana Cornet V ranks (wood and metal) as well as a Sesquialtera III ranks. After its removal and storage to make way for the new building (and the new Fr Willis), this grand organ came to Hinckley and was installed by Holdich (recently and excellently restored last year). But fashions within about 10 to 15 years of being born in London and traveling North up the A5 changed the Dulciana Cornet V to Voix Celestes 8 and Viol d'Amour 8.

 

All best wishes,

Nigel

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Interesting is the fact we had both the Dulciana Cornet (probably with a tierce rank,

though this isn't 100% sure as there are german examples of tierceless Cornets!)

and the Sesquialtera, which illustrates well they had differing roles and strenghts.

 

Pierre

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this one....

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch...ec_index=N10984

has a full dulciana chorus from 16' to mixture, including a twelfth......Prof Tracy was organist here before he went to Liverpool Cathedral. Nice Compton rebuild of a Rushworth and Dreaper, but being a Compton rebuild, I wouldn't be surprised if it were an extended rank. Still a very nice sound, sort of an echo great, but a bit feeble for a second chorus in Bach.

 

Yes, I had discounted possible extension ranks - which is why I did not mention Bangor Cathedral, either.

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Of course it does.

So we have the Willis and the H&H types.

And this one here without tierce rank.

 

Pierre

 

Except that the blend may not be totally cohesive, depending on where the divisions are sited. I recall that the Echo Organ is near the choirstalls, but I cannot remember where the Choir Organ is placed.

 

Ideally, one would wish the mixture to be on the same soundboard as the rest of the chorus. Otherwise, there are probaby a fair number of instruments surviving with a Dulciana Mixture in the Swell box, 16ft. and 8ft. mild strings (Salicional or Dulciana) on the Choir Organ and perhaps a 4ft. somewhere else. This hardly makes a chorus.

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Except that the blend may not be totally cohesive, depending on where the divisions are sited. I recall that the Echo Organ is near the choirstalls, but I cannot remember where the Choir Organ is placed.

 

Ideally, one would wish the mixture to be on the same soundboard as the rest of the chorus. Otherwise, there are probaby a fair number of instruments surviving with a Dulciana Mixture in the Swell box, 16ft. and 8ft. mild strings (Salicional or Dulciana) on the Choir Organ and perhaps a 4ft. somewhere else. This hardly makes a chorus.

 

Very interesting remarks!

 

The Dulciana Mixture is rarely made with "pure Dulciana" scales, for,

particularly in the treble, this would be difficult to make.

The refererence is rather the strenght.

So if we have, say, one Dulciana on the Great, another, in 16', on the Swell,

they won't go in the "Dulciana chorus"; this one is made with soft stops

from the same division than the DM , whatever their names.

Now of course if the organ was changed, the matter could be different!

 

Pierre

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How about a chorus of violes, Pierre - there are a number of these around. As I am sure you know, they were a speciality of Arthur Harrison - often with a sub-tierce (10th) in the mixture.

 

This is a completely different ensemble:

 

Contra Viole 16' (first octave may be stopped, a kind of Quintatön)

Viole d'orchestre 8'

Violes celestes 8' (sometimes two ranks)

Viole octaviante 4'

Cornet de Viols, for ex. 3 1/5'-2 2/3'- 2'

 

I spent about one day and an half with the one in Ely Cathedral, whose Solo clavier

was -at least- kept through the 70's restoration.

 

This is completely different from a Dulciana chorus:

 

-Because the Viole d'orchestre is a keen stop, not a soft one

-Because this is a "Jeu de Tierce", a synthetic color, not a chorus with a Mixture

-Because as a sharp color it belongs to the Solo manual, not the Choir.

 

When today's french organists heard that "étrange Cornet gambé, à la fois si proche et si différent de ce qu'on connaît",

they fall in love with it.

When the Stahlhuth organ of Dudelange, Luxembourg, was restored according to its period,

also in a Post-romantic style, a String Cornet was added in the Swell, with five slides,

at 8, 4, 2 2/3, 2 and 1 3/5 pitch.

Such things are "in the air" also.

 

The Viole d'orchestre Jeu de Tierce (or "Cornet décomposé", though I dislike this neo-baroque

definition, since the Jeu de tierce ranks are very different from the Cornet's in scaling and voicing)

present the peculiarity of combining exact intervals (Quint, Tierce) with the many uneven partial tones

of the pipes themselves; hence, the result is always somewhat dissonant.

It allows also for a sharp coloring, surprising the listener, but you could not build a chorus

with such pipes.

 

And so....We need both: The Dulciana chorus as a second Principal chorus, an echo chorus you

would think it comes from a room next to the church's wall, and the Viole d'orchestre Jeu de Tierce

(besides a more traditionnal Tierce, of course, be it a Cornet or a Flute's Jeu de Tierce).

 

Pierre

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Well, yes - I know that they are completely different! However, it is easier to locate surviving examples.

 

....And so our Dulciana chorus deserves a priority!

Cornets de Viols exist in E-M. Skinner organs, which are now

gaining protection in the United States.

 

Pierre

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