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Ste Clotilde

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"it was not considered suitable for the musical requirements of the time. However, I am aware that I have suggested that certain Engilsh organs could be subject to some tonal alterations, in order to make them more musical."

 

(Quote)

 

As I am very weak in english, could you please explain the difference ?

 

There is no difference. I meant by this that I could be considered guilty of the same criticisms which Tournemire made regarding the organ at Ste. Clothilde. However, my comments were directed at a well-known 'vintage' H&H instrument.

 

"An organ is not just a three-dimensional historic document or record"

(Quote)

An organ is a piece of art like any other, we need to keep them, like

the others instruments, or in ten years we shall have to play Bach on synthetizers.

 

I do not believe that your conclusion follows your argument, Pierre. I did not advocate the wholesale destruction (or removal) of any organ(s). However, even 'flûte harmonique' has stated that organs need to evolve.

 

In any case, it is no less logical for me to suggest that if the organ had not changed and developed, we should still be sitting in front of small two-clavier instruments, with nothing more exciting than a Cornet V - oh, and no pedals, either.

 

Certainly, Worcester would never have existed in its late lamented incarnation.

 

. "Each organ has a job to do"

(Quote)

 

A fridge too. But I hope you'll agree there is a -however small-

difference between an organ and kitchen furniture...

 

Pierre

This seems to me to be a rather flippant analogy.

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Quite so!

And what about La Trinité?: without the changes by Beuchet how Messiaen could have imagine to keep composing for organ?

And Widor at St Sulpice: everyone knows that he thanked ACC many times for his magnificent organ constructed on the basis of Clicquot'work!

 

My argument was not concerned with the organ of La Trinité, nor that of S. Sulpice. In any case, surely this would serve only to re-inforce my original point. The organ of La Trinité is, as far as I know, in the same state that it was when Messiaen was Titulaire; therefore, this gives us an excellent idea of the specific timbres and dynamic levels he called for. Likewise in the case of the organ of S. Sulpice - which has been jealously guarded by at least the last four titulaires. In its present state, it certainly gives a clear guide to the types of combinations and sonority which Widor would have desired. Dupré is more complicated, since British and American influences were at least as important to his music.

 

Cochereau himself was very cool about the organ conception: to his visitors who complained about the deep changes that occured on his NDP organ, he allways said there was a button which would allow them to only use the Vierne tutti and the numerous registrations allowed the concertists to draw aside the new stops!

 

This was slightly disingenuous of Cochereau. It was not as simple as that. He had caused virtually all the chorus mixtures of the G.O., Positif, Récit (where a Cymbale IV was also installed), Solo and G-C to be re-arranged. In fact, apart from those on the G.O. and the Cornet on the Solo Orgue, all of the compound stops were altered (or added) after 1963.* Furthermore, they, together with the chamades, had a profound effect on the tutti.

 

In addition, the G.O. anches during Vierne's tenure consisted of bassons at 16ft. and 8ft. and a Clairon at 4ft. The present G.O. anches are the more usual Bombarde 16ft., Trompette 8ft. and Clairon 4ft. Interestingly, these ranks are marked as dating from Cliquot's rebuild of 1788. They are probably the ranks formerly on the Bombarde (now 'Solo') Organ. At the very least, these stops must have been revoiced.

 

Do not misunderstand me - I think that the organ of Nôtre-Dame de Paris, by about the mid-1970s, was the most stunning, exciting instrument I have ever heard. However, it was simply not true for PC to state that it was possible to use only the 'Vierne' tutti - this no longer existed in the form that would have been recognised by Vierne himself.

 

Music changes...organs have to

 

Surely it is rather our perception of the music which changes - not the music itself.

 

 

 

* Although in some cases, they contained much existing pipe-work, re-arranged and revoiced.

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... the Récit department was quite small-sounding - (that is why for instance when he requests a solo as in Choral III, so many stops are put down and which sound totally overwhelming and out of proportion on other instruments.) Alongside the G-O in the middle of the case is the Positive (this being enclosed and quite the same volume as the the former - if not a little louder, it was said).

Sorry if I step in here -- the Ste. Clotilde Positiv was (ans still is) unenclosed. The pipework sits directly behind the middle portion of the facade. The towers on either side house the GO. As fas as I know, the ground plan goes like this:

 

Front to back:

Front -- GO C / Positif / GO C#

Middle -- Barker GO

Back -- Pedal C / Récit / Pedal C#

 

The reason for the lack of a Tirasse Récit was the staggered floor of the loft, which prevented the Récit action from running through the GO machine.

 

Best,

Friedrich

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"organs need to evolve."

(Quote)

 

THE organ needs to evolve: yes.

Not THE ORGANS.

(Or are we willing to lose 75 years once more?)

 

Pierre

 

Please explain how it is possible to have one without the other, Pierre. Not every church can afford simply to commission a new instrument. Even fewer could justify the installation of a new organ - and still retain (in good order) an older instrument.

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
Sorry if I step in here -- the Ste. Clotilde Positiv was (ans still is) unenclosed. The pipework sits directly behind the middle portion of the facade. The towers on either side house the GO. As fas as I know, the ground plan goes like this:

 

Front to back:

Front -- GO C / Positif / GO C#

Middle -- Barker GO

Back -- Pedal C / Récit / Pedal C#

 

The reason for the lack of a Tirasse Récit was the staggered floor of the loft, which prevented the Récit action from running through the GO machine.

 

Best,

Friedrich

 

Silly me! It is a number of decades, another century and another Millennium since I was there. In my haste I was remembering another instrument that was with an enclosed Positive. I shall correct my post to stop such foolish mis-information. I have somewhere the ground plan. I must find it too.

N. with thanks.

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The reason for the lack of a Tirasse Récit was the staggered floor of the loft, which prevented the Récit action from running through the GO machine.

I feel sure I have read somewhere that the lack of a Récit tirasse was not that unusual on at least the earlier French Romantic organs. It certainly seems to me that a lot (most?) of the French music of this period takes it for granted that such a coupler might not be available. By way of testing this I've just checked the two sets of 12 pieces by Dubois. Not once does he call for this coupler and a couple of the pieces (the Marche des Rois Mages and the Offertoire in D minor) quite clearly allow for its absence by doubling the final pedal note in the left hand on the Récit.

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Not once does he call for this coupler and a couple of the pieces (the Marche des Rois Mages....)

Gosh! Have I found another organist (apart from me) who also plays this daft piece?! :):rolleyes:

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Er, not exactly. I did sight-read it through once just to see whether the image of Magi marching (when anyone with half a brain cell would have hopped on the back of a camel) made any sense. All it conjured up was recollections of walking out to the point at Dawlish Warren, where you plod through the loose sand for half an hour and find that you're back where you started.

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My wife tells me that it conjurs up an impression of gnomes marching! She rather likes it....bless!

 

The last time I played this before a church service a couple of years ago, one of the more confident of the congregation actually came up whilst I was playing to ask me if I was aware that one of the keys on the organ sounded as if it had stuck, and to say it was playing havoc with her deaf-aid..... :rolleyes::):blink:

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I feel sure I have read somewhere that the lack of a Récit tirasse was not that unusual on at least the earlier French Romantic organs. It certainly seems to me that a lot (most?) of the French music of this period takes it for granted that such a coupler might not be available.

 

Due to the fact that on a French instrument it is the Positif Orgue which is usually considered to be the second most important division (after the G.O.) - not the Récit-Expressif, which was often quite small.

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Likewise in the case of the organ of S. Sulpice - which has been jealously guarded by at least the last four titulaires. In its present state, it certainly gives a clear guide to the types of combinations and sonority which Widor would have desired.

 

According to Olivier Glandaz (who serviced the organ for years) this should no longer be true since the recent restoration.

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
Due to the fact that on a French instrument it is the Positif Orgue which is usually considered to be the second most important division (after the G.O.) - not the Récit-Expressif, which was often quite small.

 

Left over from the time when it was only 1/2 compass starting at Middle C. Notre-Dame-de-Lorette (Cavaillé-Coll around 1833) provides a Récit of 10 stops with a compass of 37 notes with only Hautbois and Voix humaine being jeux expressif. With a Pedal of 20 notes (16, 8, 4, 16, 8, 4) and a ravalement for bottom A this instrument straddles the traditions of one century and the new one and can be cited as an example of the burgeoning new style of instrument with an Appel des Anches (G-O).

Echo divisions were normally from Tenor C and with a compass for the G-O and Pos of 54 notes, one can work out that this Récit encompasses a bit of Old and New. An evolving Symphonic organ.

 

Best wishes,

Nigel

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According to Olivier Glandaz (who serviced the organ for years) this should no longer be true since the recent restoration.

 

If this were true, I should be very surprised. Daniel Roth has always maintained in public the need to preserve the instrument without making any alterations.

 

What is supposed to have happened to it?

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My argument was not concerned with the organ of La Trinité, nor that of S. Sulpice. In any case, surely this would serve only to re-inforce my original point. The organ of La Trinité is, as far as I know, in the same state that it was when Messiaen was Titulaire; therefore, this gives us an excellent idea of the specific timbres and dynamic levels he called for. Likewise in the case of the organ of S. Sulpice - which has been jealously guarded by at least the last four titulaires. In its present state, it certainly gives a clear guide to the types of combinations and sonority which Widor would have desired. Dupré is more complicated, since British and American influences were at least as important to his music.

This was slightly disingenuous of Cochereau. It was not as simple as that. He had caused virtually all the chorus mixtures of the G.O., Positif, Récit (where a Cymbale IV was also installed), Solo and G-C to be re-arranged. In fact, apart from those on the G.O. and the Cornet on the Solo Orgue, all of the compound stops were altered (or added) after 1963.* Furthermore, they, together with the chamades, had a profound effect on the tutti.

 

In addition, the G.O. anches during Vierne's tenure consisted of bassons at 16ft. and 8ft. and a Clairon at 4ft. The present G.O. anches are the more usual Bombarde 16ft., Trompette 8ft. and Clairon 4ft. Interestingly, these ranks are marked as dating from Cliquot's rebuild of 1788. They are probably the ranks formerly on the Bombarde (now 'Solo') Organ. At the very least, these stops must have been revoiced.

 

Do not misunderstand me - I think that the organ of Nôtre-Dame de Paris, by about the mid-1970s, was the most stunning, exciting instrument I have ever heard. However, it was simply not true for PC to state that it was possible to use only the 'Vierne' tutti - this no longer existed in the form that would have been recognised by Vierne himself.

Surely it is rather our perception of the music which changes - not the music itself.

* Although in some cases, they contained much existing pipe-work, re-arranged and revoiced.

 

I rather agree with you for NDP, but saying that, Cochereau wanted probably to tell that the changes brought by Boisseau were never questionned by the concertists invited each sunday afternoon...

For the rest St Sulpice is an amusing relic of the XIX st century but IMHO not the best example of ACC's work.

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If this were true, I should be very surprised. Daniel Roth has always maintained in public the need to preserve the instrument without making any alterations.

 

What is supposed to have happened to it?

 

Read here (at about 1/3 of the page)

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I rather agree with you for NDP, but saying that, Cochereau wanted probably to tell that the changes brought by Boisseau were never questionned by the concertists invited each sunday afternoon...

 

.... And the changes wrought by Jean Hermann in 1963. This is probably because, at the time, a good number of the guest artists were not French, so probably had less of an idea how an 'authentic' large Cavaillé-Coll should sound.

 

 

For the rest St Sulpice is an amusing relic of the XIX st century but IMHO not the best example of ACC's work.

 

I am not sure that I would term this instrument 'amusing'! Personally, I think that it is superb. I beileve that Paul Hodges mentioned Daniel Roth's CD of Bach, recorded on this organ, on another thread. I have a copy of this and, as far as I am concerned, the organ sounds wonderful - and fits the music like a glove. The playing, as always with M. Roth is exemplary - although I am less happy with his improvisations. I do possess a copy of his improvisation CD which was also mentioned on the same thread; however, next to recordings by Cochereau, Pincemaille or even Grünenwald, for me, it is just not in the same league.

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Read here (at about 1/3 of the page)

 

Good grief! This was kept fairly quiet - if indeed it was all undertaken.

 

I cannot recall who was titulaire between Jean-Jacques Grünenwald* and Daniel Roth, but whoever he was, he should have been shot.

 

 

 

* I think that it was whoever acted as suppléant to Grünenwald - but I cannot presently find his name. I am surprised that this person was able to authorise this type of work on this instrument. I am sure that I recall reading that his appointment was only temporary - although not quite in the same way that Widor's was 'temporary'!

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According to this, no one!

 

Am I alone in detecting a note of sour grapes in M Glandaz's site? That may be a very unfair suggestion since he appears to be very well conected in Paris, but, from my armchair position on the wrong side of the channel, I do wonder whether one should take everything there seriously.

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According to this, no one!

 

I tried this one, Vox - it is incorrect. There was at least a temporary appointment; I am still fairly certain that it was the previous suppléant. I also have an idea that he died in-post, too.

 

However, I am occasionally wrong, even when I am sure that I am correct, so who knows....

Am I alone in detecting a note of sour grapes in M Glandaz's site? That may be a very unfair suggestion since he appears to be very well conected in Paris, but, from my armchair position on the wrong side of the channel, I do wonder whether one should take everything there seriously.

 

No - I thought the same. I should still be surprised if virtually none of the original Cavaillé-Coll voicing survives intact. To me, it sounds perfectly plausible as a grand example of the work of Cavaillé-Coll .

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From Wiki

 

Françoise Renet (Paris May 20 1924 Paris - Versailles March 23, 1995) was an important French organist. She studied with Marcel Dupré (organ), Maurice Duruflé (improvisation), and Nadia Boulanger (harmony). For 40 years she was associated with the great Cavaillé-Coll at Saint-Sulpice (Paris). In 1955 Dupré named her Assistant Organist. Upon his death she became Interim Organist (1971-1973), after which she was named Co-Titular Organist with Jean-Jacques Grunenwald. After Grunenwald's death she again became Interim Organist (1983-1985), until the nomination of Daniel Roth.

 

From 1972 to 1990, Renet taught the organ class at the Marcel Dupré Conservatory in Meudon.

 

Best wishes

 

J

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From Wiki

 

Françoise Renet (Paris May 20 1924 Paris - Versailles March 23, 1995) was an important French organist. She studied with Marcel Dupré (organ), Maurice Duruflé (improvisation), and Nadia Boulanger (harmony). For 40 years she was associated with the great Cavaillé-Coll at Saint-Sulpice (Paris). In 1955 Dupré named her Assistant Organist. Upon his death she became Interim Organist (1971-1973), after which she was named Co-Titular Organist with Jean-Jacques Grunenwald. After Grunenwald's death she again became Interim Organist (1983-1985), until the nomination of Daniel Roth.

 

From 1972 to 1990, Renet taught the organ class at the Marcel Dupré Conservatory in Meudon.

 

Best wishes

 

J

 

Thank you - although clearly I had forgotten that it was a lady organist.

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Am I right im my memory that at some point the manual order was changed at S. Sulpice?

 

AJJ

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