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John Sayer

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This is supposed to be a serious discussion forum, generously provided by Mander organs for all to use.

 

That's not so say there shouldn't be occasional injections of wit and humour - heaven forbid organ enthusiasts should be thought to take themselves too seriously.

 

However, in recent weeks, 1 or 2 inconsiderate individuals have found it necessary to engage in silly and often offensive exchanges of crude schoolboy innuendo. They may get some perverse satisfaction out if it, but the rest of us find it tiresome and unamusing.

 

It's also a gross discourtesy to other users and, not least, to the hosts of this site.

 

Without naming names, could I appeal to the offenders to grow up and desist, please!

 

JS

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Guest Leathered-Lips
This is supposed to be a serious discussion forum, generously provided by Mander organs for all to use.

 

That's not so say there shouldn't be occasional injections of wit and humour - heaven forbid organ enthusiasts should be thought to take themselves too seriously.

 

However, in recent weeks, 1 or 2 inconsiderate individuals have found it necessary to engage in silly and often offensive exchanges of crude schoolboy innuendo.  They may get some perverse satisfaction out if it, but the rest of us find it tiresome and unamusing.

 

It's also a gross discourtesy to other users and, not least, to the hosts of this site.

 

Without naming names, could I appeal to the offenders to grow up and desist, please!

 

JS

 

I think "for all to use" sums it up pretty much. Anyone who kindly opens a discussion board will naturally take account of the all personalities which will develop on it as people are all individuals I'd imagine they would respect that as I am sure nobody would mean any discourtesy to a kind host. As you say there is a place for serious discussion and much of that goes on as it quite rightly should. However, I equally assume that topics such as "what type of wire do you use for your reed tuning wires" or whatever are equally laughable in their own way, but it would be quite wrong to dismiss that topic out of hand. But perhaps some are reading genuine questions the wrong way? You simply can't dismiss people because they might have a sense of humour and that could indeed be interpreted as childish by some. That is pure discrimination and censorship and if you go down that road there is little point in having an open discussion forum "for all to use", in the first place. Also, people do make friends through discussion boards which is another reason why they have a value. I'd suggest if you don't like a post, not to contribute to it? Each to their own perhaps? One of the great things about people as individuals just as individual organs. They are all different and do not all fit into the same mould....just a thought.

 

Every good wish

 

Edna

 

X

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Dear Edna,

 

Of course everybody may have his/her ways.

Halas fact is, the experience of my own forums (5 roses forums plus

one organ forum) shows that "the bad posts eliminate the good ones".

The serious posters have to give way to the funny ones.

There are enough funny sites on the Web -whatever this may mean-,

while serious ones, like this one, are seldom.

 

So were this forum mine, you would have been banned from post one.

 

Just a tought!

 

Best wishes,

Pierre Lauwers

Historian

Website administrator.

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Guest Leathered-Lips
Dear Edna,

 

Of course everybody may have his/her ways.

Halas fact is, the experience of my own forums (5 roses forums plus

one organ forum) shows that "the bad posts eliminate the good ones".

The serious posters have to give way to the funny ones.

There are enough funny sites on the Web -whatever this may mean-,

while serious ones, like this one, are seldom.

 

So were this forum mine, you would have been banned from post one.

 

Just a tought!

 

Best wishes,

Pierre Lauwers

Historian

Website administrator.

 

How about a "fun" section?

 

Just a thought? :angry:

 

Edna

 

X

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How about a "fun" section?

 

Just a thought?  :angry:

 

Edna

 

X

=====================

 

 

"Organists are like broken down cab-horses; always longing for another stop."

 

- Canon Sydney Smith (St Paul's)

 

"The house of God is not beautified by rows of zinc chimmney cans," - Canon Sydney Smith (St Paul's)

 

===========

 

"Here lies a fine organist and musician" -

 

"Good heavens! How did they get them in the save grave?" - Thos.Beecham

 

==============

 

"I am reading your criticism whilst seated in the smallest room in the house, and I am happy to inform you that it will soon be behind me and forgotten" - Max Reger

 

================

 

"Oh bugger!" - Dr Francis Jackson (on leaving So-Gt drawn for the pp section of the Liszt BACH with the Tuba drawn) - Ripon Cathedral recital.

 

================

 

THESE PEOPLE DESERVED TO BE CENSORED!!

 

 

mm

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"I am reading your criticism whilst seated in the smallest room in the house, and I am happy to inform you that it will soon be behind me and forgotten" - Max Reger

 

(Quote)

 

I particularly like this one, a very belgian kind of humor (belgian humor

is influenced by both the british and the german ones, tough many an english

would ask: which german humor?)

 

Now dear MM, if Max Reger had lived enough to joke with us here, do you really

believe he would have posted 90 comments like that out of hundred?

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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That's not so say there shouldn't be occasional injections of wit and humour - heaven forbid organ enthusiasts should be thought to take themselves too seriously.

 

However, in recent weeks, 1 or 2 inconsiderate individuals have found it necessary to engage in silly and often offensive exchanges of crude schoolboy innuendo. They may get some perverse satisfaction out if it, but the rest of us find it tiresome and unamusing.

 

It's also a gross discourtesy to other users and, not least, to the hosts of this site.

 

You do not have to be solemn in order to be serious. Teachers have known for a long time that a serious point dressed up as a joke is more likely to be remembered than a serious point dressed up as a serious point. But more fundamentally, unless you outlaw all humorous remarks (which is not proposed) you have immediately to confront the problem of drawing the line which divides the acceptable from the unacceptable.

 

I doubt anyone who contributes to this site is so naive as to believe that complete freedom of speech -anything at all goes - is either aceptable or feasible - so it ought to follow that we would all agree that there is a line to be drawn. It by no means follows we would all draw the line in the same place. The odds against that happening are pretty steep. So whose line is to be accepted ? It seems to me that the obvious, indeed the only practical, candidate to be "censor" (determiner of what is acceptable) has to be the moderator. Indeed I seem to recollect his having intervened from time to time on the Alexandra Palace thread when the discussion seemed to be getting a little heated, so the lack of intervention so far can only indicate either that his personal line has not been crossed OR he has given up in despair. I suggest the former explanation is slightly more plausible if only because I would have expected the latter reaction to be accompanied by a decision to close down the site or at least sever all connection between it and Mander, which has not happened at the time of writing.

 

I can understand what prompted the initial post : indeed there are some remarks on a couple of threads on this site relating to identifiable individuals which would cross my personal line, and for all I know others may agree with me, but they may not. For the moment I shall continue to work on the assumption that JPM will let us know when things have gone too far in his book whilst forbearing to personally participate in any thread or sub-thread which crosses my own boundaries to the area of what is acceptable.

 

Brian Childs :angry: :(B)

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I have felt some of the innuendo a little misplaced, personally, but I do feel this rather serious and dry board has been livened up by certain individuals of late..

 

One solution might be that Manders would consider enabling the "complain about this post" link which this board software supports and then they would be in a position to react to other people's view of particular contributors.

 

Then again, they would probably prefer to concentrate on what they are best at -- building and restoring fine pipe organs :angry:

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I'm sure we all enjoy a bit of good humour, but am I alone in finding many of "Enda's" posts strikingly unfunny. I may be an old stick-in-the-mud, but I must say that my own enjoyment of these discussion boards has been lessened by this constant stream of seaside postcard humour.

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I'm sure we all enjoy a bit of good humour, but am I alone in finding many of "Enda's" posts strikingly unfunny. I may be an old stick-in-the-mud, but I must say that my own enjoyment of these discussion boards has been lessened by this constant stream of seaside postcard humour.

 

So we are at least two.

Pierre

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However, in recent weeks, 1 or 2 inconsiderate individuals have found it necessary to engage in silly and often offensive exchanges of crude schoolboy innuendo.  They may get some perverse satisfaction out if it, but the rest of us find it tiresome and unamusing.

 

It's also a gross discourtesy to other users and, not least, to the hosts of this site.

 

JS

 

This has now been brought to the attention of Mander Organs, as the two individuals have gone too far in the last few days. Some of their posts have been deleted, and if the two individuals persist they may find that their posts are subjected to the ignominy of moderator filtering before they are allowed to appear on the board; or they may be barred (a handful of posts by these two were libellous).

 

A note to everyone: please do not hesitate to e-mail John Mander or me (mander@longitude0.co.uk), if you have concerns about any of the posts on the Mander Organs discussion board. We ALWAYS take these alerts very seriously and investigate STRAIGHTAWAY.

 

Moderator, Mander Organs

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Post script: having spent half an hour going through all Leathered-Lips' posts and deleting perhaps two dozen - dreadful, even a joke about the car crash in which HRH The Princess of Wales died - I am enforcing moderator preview of Leathered-Lips' contributions for two weeks, ie until the Mander family are well past Noel Mander's funeral.

 

Moderator, Mander Organs

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Thankyou John Sayer for having the courage to put it writing what perhaps many of us had been thinking.

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Idiotic fun is one thing. Libelling a well-known figure in the organ world is quite another, and could land Mander Organs and their ISP in court for publishing the libel. It was totally out of order.

 

A case of not engaging brain before putting fingertips to keyboard, I think.

 

Nick

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This has now been brought to the attention of Mander Organs, as the two individuals have gone too far in the last few days.  Some of their posts have been deleted, and if the two individuals persist they may find that their posts are subjected to the ignominy of moderator filtering before they are allowed to appear on the board; or they may be barred (a handful of posts by these two were libellous).

 

A note to everyone: please do not hesitate to e-mail John Mander or me (mander@longitude0.co.uk), if you have concerns about any of the posts on the Mander Organs discussion board.  We ALWAYS take these alerts very seriously and investigate STRAIGHTAWAY.

 

Moderator, Mander Organs

 

In my previous contribution to this thread I did not draw attention to the fact that certain remarks were undoubtedly libellous, although I considered so doing, because I did not consider I should be the one to open this can of worms. However, now that the moderator has intervened and put that matter in play, perhaps I might draw attention to some features of English libel law which contributors may care to ponder on in the future -

 

A statement can be libellous of an individual if it can be understood by reasonable people to refer to that individual. It is NOT necessary to name the person, it is NO defence that you did not intend to refer to a person or even that you had no idea they existed : as a judge once remarked, it is not a matter of what is aimed at but what is hit. One of the reasons local newspapers invariably give the name and address of John X in their court reports is to make it very difficult for anyone else to argue that the words were reasonably capable of being understood as referring to anyone but the particular individual of whom they are true.

 

Every repetition of a libellous statement is theoretically a distinct publication. What this means in practice is not that a claimant can go around suing one defendant after another but that they have the choice of whom to take action against: there is no requirement that it be the originator of the story. Usually it will the person with the deepest pocket but anyone who repeats a libellous statement might find themselves in the position of having to defend it. A person would very likely be construed as repeating a statement by ,for example, quoting it in a reply to a previous post.

 

It is a complete defence to a civil action that an allegation is true. However, libellous statements are presumed to be UNTRUE and it is for the defendant to prove that the allegation is true. You do not do this by showing that you have accurately repeated a story told to you or that lots of other people believe it to be true. If you allege X is a child molester, you have to prove that s/he is. It is not good enough to prove that somebody told you s/he was and you are simply passing this on. Nor is it enough to show that this allegation is in general circulation and widely believed. It is not even enough to show that you had facts in your possession which led you quite reasonably to draw this conclusion, if in fact it is not true. Such matters might well be relevant to the amount of damages or compensation to be awarded but they would not prevent a claim from succeeding.

 

Everyone enjoys the right of comment on matters of public interest, which in terms of matters relevant to this site includes musical performances , the features of public works (like new organ installations)etc and they are entitled to be robust and opinionated in making those comments . There is no requirement that comments be objectively fair or balanced, or that the opinions be shared by anyone else. The only requirement is that such comment represents the genuine opinion of the commentator and is not malicious - a term that might be best considered as meaning -" actuated by some improper motive with the objective, not of expressing a genuinely held opinion but of inflicting harm on the person about whom the remark is made".

 

It was, I think, a former editor of The Guardian, then The Manchester Guardian who wrote "Comment is free but facts are sacred". he was writing about the duty of a newspaper but perhaps there is a lesson here on which everyone needs to reflect. :angry: Brian Childs

 

Edited by moderator to tidy up html tags, 19.Sept 2005

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This has now been brought to the attention of Mander Organs, as the two individuals have gone too far in the last few days.  Some of their posts have been deleted, and if the two individuals persist they may find that their posts are subjected to the ignominy of moderator filtering before they are allowed to appear on the board; or they may be barred (a handful of posts by these two were libellous).

 

A note to everyone: please do not hesitate to e-mail John Mander or me (mander@longitude0.co.uk), if you have concerns about any of the posts on the Mander Organs discussion board.  We ALWAYS take these alerts very seriously and investigate STRAIGHTAWAY.

 

Moderator, Mander Organs

 

Thank you for intervening and more thanks to John Sayer for raising the issue. As a new user of the forum, I had almost given up in despair when I saw the content of some posts.

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For my part I agree that last week I went much too far and sincerely apologise for any offence or upset caused to other users of the board. I confess a degree of alcoholic beverage consumption was involved. I hope those concerned will accept this apology and be assured that normal taste and propriety will be resumed forthwith.

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I'm sure we all enjoy a bit of good humour, but am I alone in finding many of "Enda's" posts strikingly unfunny. I may be an old stick-in-the-mud, but I must say that my own enjoyment of these discussion boards has been lessened by this constant stream of seaside postcard humour.

 

Whilst I would agree with you, in fairness I should point out that you have also used the word 'farts' with regard to the organ of Gloucester Cathedral (6-ix-2005) and I have used the word 'sexy' on at least two occasions....

 

Perhaps the point is, as I believe Brian Childs has stated, a certain amount of humour is good. However, it is of course right that we refrain from any libellous statements or gratuitous offence, whilst not becoming too prim or judgemental.

 

It could also be said that, in the light of some of the things which we organists have to endure in the course of executing our duties, a sense of humour may well prove to be a valuable asset - if not actually a saving grace.

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Incidentally, if there is the occasional letter apparently missing from my posts to-day, I am using a friend's computer and the 't', 'h' and 'r' are particularly reticent to appear.

 

Alternatively, it could be that I am just a bad typist. :unsure:

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