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Franz Schumann


Charles Wooler
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I went to a very fine recital last night - James Lancelot playing the magnificent 1902 Willis at St. Georges in Gateshead. He played the fourth of the Op. 58 Sketches for Pedal Piano (the Db major one) and I was very much taken with it. Does any one know where I can obtain a copy of these gorgeous minatures? I gather that there is a C. H. Trevor edition which thins out the texture very sensibly for the organ to make things less opaque. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

All the best

 

Charles

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
I went to a very fine recital last night - James Lancelot playing the magnificent 1902 Willis at St. Georges in Gateshead. He played the fourth of the Op. 58 Sketches for Pedal Piano (the Db major one) and I was very much taken with it. Does any one know where I can obtain a copy of these gorgeous minatures? I gather that there is a C. H. Trevor edition which thins out the texture very sensibly for the organ to make things less opaque. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

Not wanting a court case, I don't want to be too specific, but at all costs resist the temptation to invest in a handsome American edition (in a wine-a red cover) which to a cursory glance appears to contain Schumann's complete works for organ. I tried quite hard with it and eventually gave up the unequal struggle because of the obscene quantity of misprints. Otherwise it appears nicely edited and I'm sure all involved were well-intentioned if appallingly incompetent at the final (vital) hurdle.

 

I play from Peeters edition. There were two old Augener editions (no longer in print) for organ (edited Eaglefield Hull, I think) and (as original) for pedal piano.

I think there is a Schumann volume in a Dupre edition. I find these too crowded with interpretation and fingering marks of Dupre's, but you might not mind that.

 

Schumann is extremely dead and his executors do not collect royalties. if you have any difficulty, request a copy from a library and copy it. The loose sheets may well make the tricky bits easier to learn.

 

Have fun!

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Schumann is extremely dead and his executors do not collect royalties. if you have any difficulty, request a copy from a library and copy it. The loose sheets may well make the tricky bits easier to learn.

 

Have fun!

 

 

Copyright is an area of law in which I claim no expertise whatsoever but there is , I believe, such a thing as publisher's copyright in the layout of a printed page which might exist, and therefore be infringed by copying even if the actual notes in the case of music or the words in the case of a Dickens novel are in the Public Domain. Was not this the issue, or at least a close cousin of it, which recently caused such grief to Hyperion records ? Is there anyone on this site who canprovide authoritative advice ?

 

Brian Childs

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk

I virtually 100% sure, but always ready to be corrected., of course.

My firm understanding is that publishers have copyright on the printed page for 25 years. Therefore, I'm quite sure that the Schumann versions out there are safe to recommend for this purpose.

 

The critical change in copyright came about 6 years ago and the period during which composer's works were covered was extended from 50 to 70 years after their deaths - this meant in practice that Elgar's music which had recently come out of copyright went back in again!

 

I repeat, have fun!

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I virtually 100% sure, but always ready to be corrected., of course.

My firm understanding is that publishers have copyright on the printed page for 25 years.  Therefore, I'm quite sure that the Schumann versions out there are safe to recommend for this purpose.

 

The critical change in copyright came about 6 years ago and the period during which composer's works were covered was extended from 50 to 70 years after their deaths - this meant in practice that Elgar's music which had recently come out of copyright went back in again!

 

I repeat, have fun!

 

Hi

 

An enquiry to Allegro music (www.allegromusic.co.uk) might help with a score. I'm pretty sure I saw them in a music shop fairly recently, but I can't remember where, or who the publisher was.

 

As regards copyright, the composition remains in copyright for 70 years from the date of the composer's death, after which it becomes "public domain" and no royalties are payable for recording or public performance (but N.B. if it's an arrangement, the copyright will be 70 years from the date of the arranger's death, as far as I know). The situation with "editors" copyright is far from clear. As someone said, the publisher does have a copyright in the physical layout of the printed page, which lasts, as far as I know, for 25 years frfom the date of publication.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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I went to a very fine recital last night - James Lancelot playing the magnificent 1902 Willis at St. Georges in Gateshead. He played the fourth of the Op. 58 Sketches for Pedal Piano (the Db major one) and I was very much taken with it. Does any one know where I can obtain a copy of these gorgeous minatures? I gather that there is a C. H. Trevor edition which thins out the texture very sensibly for the organ to make things less opaque. Can anyone enlighten me?

 

All the best

 

Charles

You lucky person, what a combination, James and father Willis (1901 I think??? ,the organ, that is) I have been to St. Georges quite a number times, and James Lancelot, well, as I have said before on this forum, what a marvelous player/interpreter he is. I recently bought the first comercial CD release of that organ and it sounds as good today as it did when I recorded a friend playing it many years ago. J.B.L. is playing at Beverley Minster on 15th October, I wish I could go, but as a member of the Darlington organists ass, we have our annual recital given by Roy Massey on the same night, and I asked James if he would let me record at Beverley, but he asked me not to :unsure:

Peter

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If publisher's copyright extends only to the actual layout on the page, can I assume one is at liberty to copy pieces from the published copy into Sibelius provided the composer has been dead for 70 years?

====================

 

I would suggest that one has to be careful here, because even the slightest editing mark is covered by copyright....even if that is but a correction to the original composer's mistakes.

 

Of course, it works both ways. I doubt that a certain publisher of the Bossi Scherzo would take legal action if you copied THEIR mistakes onto Sibelius!! :unsure:

 

MM

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====================

 

I would suggest that one has to be careful here, because even the slightest editing mark is covered by copyright....even if that is but a correction to the original composer's mistakes.

 

Of course, it works both ways. I doubt that a certain publisher of the Bossi Scherzo would take legal action if you copied THEIR mistakes onto Sibelius!!  :unsure:

 

MM

 

How I wish I'd trained as a copyright lawyer! I've heard that music publishers put *deliberate* mistakes in their editions in order to be able to prove copyright infringement (as is also done by map publishers). I would like to see some of the more erratic editions sued under the Sale Of Goods Acts! James Joyce's Ulysses was republished in a new "corrected" edition in order to establish a new copyright for the benefit of the publishers, the Joyce estate, and the unfortunately named editor Herr Gabler. Scrutiny has shown the new edition to contain 3000 changes from the old one, only 1000 of which may be improvements!

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I would like to see some of the more erratic editions sued under the Sale Of Goods Acts!

 

I have been thinking about how one might do this but on what basis would you ground your claim ? Lack of satisfactory quality ? Not fit for purpose ? Failure to correspond with description ? I would have thought each of these lines of approach might encounter certain problems.

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I went to a very fine recital last night - James Lancelot playing the magnificent 1902 Willis at St. Georges in Gateshead. He played the fourth of the Op. 58 Sketches for Pedal Piano (the Db major one) and I was very much taken with it. Does any one know where I can obtain a copy of these gorgeous minatures? I gather that there is a C. H. Trevor edition which thins out the texture very sensibly for the organ to make things less opaque. Can anyone enlighten me?

[end quote]

 

Why not squeeze £15 out of the wallet for the Complete Urtext published by G Henle Verlag in the mid-80s? Beautifully laid out, no fussy editing and for your money you get the delectably varied 6 Sketches and the very fine 6 Fugues on BACH as well (No 1 makes a splendid voluntary for a grand occasion).

 

Some of the music is undoubtedly pianistic and needs imaginative interpretation on the organ. Schumann is perhaps the greatest of true German Romantic composers and his organ works should be heard more often.

 

JS

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I would like to see some of the more erratic editions sued under the Sale Of Goods Acts!

 

I have been thinking about how one might do this but on what basis would you ground your claim ? Lack of satisfactory quality ? Not fit for purpose ? Failure to correspond with description ? I would have thought each of these lines of approach might encounter certain problems.

 

===============

 

Oh Brian! You're a lawyer!

 

The tac I would take is one of professional competence. It is surely the EXPECTATION that a professional publisher should take ALL REASONABLE CARE in presenting a printed document, and BY THE RULES OF PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCE, they MUST be accurate and faithful to the original if they claim to be professionals.

 

It's the same thing as car-repairs....if the car falls apart after a repair, it comes down to professional competence and the assumption that the punter is a lay-person without special knowledge.

 

So on THAT basis, any deliberate or unintentional errors falling short of accuracy may well simply be deliberate or unintentional misrepresentation.......either incompetence or deceit, as the case may be.

 

THIS could lead to action as "material unfit for the purpose" and therefore in contravention of the Sale of Goods Act.

 

Hey! I should have been a lawyer! B)

 

MM

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Some of the music is undoubtedly pianistic and needs imaginative interpretation on the organ. Schumann is perhaps the greatest of true German Romantic composers and his organ works should be heard more often.

 

======================

 

I play all the Sketches, and they are wonderful; especially the F minor.

 

However, I cannot begin to tell of the struggles I had with the BACH Fugue no.4.

 

Marked "lebhaft" this fugue is intended to be quick and by implication, extremely energetic and even fiery. Most play it like it is a Bach fugue.....it dies a death!

 

Some years back, on the Edelweiss label, the Italian Francesco Finotti recorded this fugue, and I still recall my reaction vividly. I just sat there open-mouthed as the organ blew the room apart! The speed was phenomenal, and the detached playing just so utterly aggressive. I grew to love that interpretation....Schumann as wild as he was passionate...and on the organ.....wow!

 

So I learned it.....6 months of intense work, throwing it away, starting again, suffering, re-learning bits, suffering more, throwing it away again, then finally conquering the technical difficulties of very rapid finger substitution.

 

I tried it out as the finale to a recital, now well up to speed and accurate. It was a violent performance, and when it ended, I gazed at the audience. B)

 

It was like someone had just let off a stun-grenade!

 

The poor organist of the church stepped forward to say his carefully rehearsed piece, but all he could say was, "Well....my words....wow...Schumann...crumbs!"

 

I reckon it's the second most exciting moment of my life; the first involving driving a Ferrari Dino during the night in Westmorland. Of course, I didn't drive as fast as I played the Schumann.....honest........your Honour.

 

;)

 

MM

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===============

 

Oh Brian!  You're a lawyer! 

 

Enough of one to know the unwisdom of being too certain of anything, however I do seem to remember the basic distinction between the strict contractual duties owed under the Sale of Goods Act and tortious duties of reasonable care. I also vaguely recall that a duty to be careful is not the same thing as a duty to be right.

 

The duties under the contract of sale are strict but only owed to the other party to the contract, so you can only use them against the publisher if you buy direct from them. If you buy from a music store , over the counter or on line, your contract of sale is with them. Whilst I could conceive that an edition of the organ works of X which was absolutely riddled with mistakes might not correspond to its description, the presence of a reasonable number of mistakes would not necessarily have that effect, so that particular condition would not be broken. After all in a contract for the sale of a new car there are a number of decided cases illustrating that perfection is not the standard and that a brand new car with certain faults is nonetheless of satisfactory quality, corresponds with its description and is reasonably fit for its purpose. I do not doubt the same statndard would apply to 

published editions of music.

 

The tac I would take is one of professional competence. It is surely the EXPECTATION that a professional publisher should take ALL REASONABLE CARE in presenting a printed document, and BY THE RULES OF PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCE, they MUST be accurate and faithful to the original if they claim to be professionals. 

 

Are we talking about a contractual duty or a duty of care in tort ? If the former, then you would need a contractual relationship with the publisher. If you had one I bet it would contain a clause along these lines -"While all reasonably care has been exercised in the preparation of this edition, the publishers accept no liability of in respect of any errors ...etc etc" If the duty was one in tort then there might be no exemption clause but the basic buiness of tort law is with dangerous goods which can hurt you : not ones which are merely defective so that you do not get value for money. Unless things have altered out of all recognition in the last couple of years there is no transmissible warranty of quality running down the distribution chain from the producer of a product to its ultimate consumer , except in relation to dangerously defective goods under legislation. I never encountered a case of anyone suffering personal injury from music with misprints, as opposed to the car with defective brakes , the beer containing arsenic as an added ingredient or the electric fire that starts a [house]fire when switched on.

 

It's the same thing as car-repairs....if the car falls apart after a repair, it comes down to professional competence and the assumption that the punter is a lay-person without special knowledge.

 

If you take your car to a garage for repairs you will have a contract for those repairs with the garage, but it will not be a contract of sale. If the car "falls apart" the position is very likely to depend on whether the cause was related to failure of a part they fitted (strict liability) or because of defective workmanship . In the latter case the duty is "reasonable care and skill" which is NOT the same as a guarantee that if anything goes wrong you have a claim that is bound to succeed.

 

So on THAT basis, any deliberate or unintentional errors falling short of accuracy may well simply be deliberate  or unintentional misrepresentation.......either incompetence or deceit, as the case may be.

 

Deceit ? Fraud ? Not a chance

 

 

 

THIS could lead to action as "material unfit for the purpose" and therefore in contravention of the Sale of Goods Act.

 

But only if you first establish that you have a contract of sale to which you are a party which is where we came in.... As my original post implied an interesting idea but not entirely free of difficulties....

 

Hey! I should have been a lawyer!    B)

 

MM

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=MusingMuso,Oct 5 2005, 08:46 AM]

Damn those lawyers!

 

Can we ask for our money back then?

 

MM

 

[/i]Dear MM,

 

It being still (just about) a free country of course you can ask for your money back. In the same way that Oliver was able to ask Mr Bumble for more. However, as the proverb has it "Blessed is he that expecteth not, for he shall not be disappointed!"

 

Those who consider sheet music expensive should take a look at the price of legal textbooks. And the damn things are out of date in four years (less in some cases) and require to be replaced by a new edition. This might explain - very high overheads - why I would not advise holding your breath in expectation of the return of your money.

 

All the best

 

Brian Childs

 

PS If you are asking the serious question ," Can someone who has bought an album of music which is not perfect but is still within the "margin of appreciation!" which means there is no breach of the contract of sale, return to the store whence they bought it and ask for a refund ?" the answer is yes. But like the policy that Marks and Spencer used to have about exchanging clothes , this is a concession on the part of the store, not a legal right. You can ask them to give you your money back but they do not have to actually do that until the errors get so bad that the article does breach the contractual rights of the buyer. Unfortunately, there is no clear bright line which makes it manifest when this situation has been reached. If the store is unhelpful your choice is legal action (not recommended) or chalking it up to experience and dealing with someone else in future. Not very satisfying but less debilitating on the pocket book than the process of throwing good money after bad.

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Quite by chance I have just added a post about the Schumann Sketch in F minor played by Colin Mitchell on the 4 manual Arthur Harrison Organ in the Parish Church, Halifax, England. An instrument well suited to this composition and a vivid performance. It can be heard on www.organsandorganistsonline.com in the members area (Admission free!) Look for the word "more" which is the magic entrance to the downloads page - you can choose by composer or organist from the drop down menu bar at the top.

 

John Foss

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  • 1 year later...
Guest Barry Williams
====================

 

I would suggest that one has to be careful here, because even the slightest editing mark is covered by copyright....even if that is but a correction to the original composer's mistakes.

 

Of course, it works both ways. I doubt that a certain publisher of the Bossi Scherzo would take legal action if you copied THEIR mistakes onto Sibelius!!  :blink:

 

MM

 

 

The copyright on the edition (i.e. the editor's work) is seventy years - the same as the composition. The copyright on the printed page is twenty five years.

 

Barry Williams

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