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Mander Organs
Pierre Lauwers

Baroque Organ Tone

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Hear, hear, here we are !

 

This very variety implies: there is no Truth, no hierarchy, we must learn

to appreciate them all, like childs need to be teached to eat all kind of

plates, not Mac.....'s "french" fries only.

 

And here, along with an incredible disdain for colors -while the baroque

organ IS, above all, color- is where the neo-baroque fashion failed completely.

 

That the people did not travel much during the baroque period is not that sure.

This was before the nightmaresque 20th century, which provoked this collection

of isolated nations Europe is today, each jealous of its provincialism.

 

The 18th century belgians -I mean the Southern Netherlands then, which were

occupied by the austrians, the french, the spanish, the dutch, everyone reigned

here- spoke an average of three languages -none of which were real dutch nor french-.

Today they do not even know two of our four national languages...Travel ? If we do,

then one week a year in a remote beach where they meet others belgians only, with

as a program beach-disco-restaurant-sleep-do it again.

 

The german baroque organs of the 18th century are incredibly vast synthesis

with northern, italian and french influencies drawn upon local traditions, and

Joachim Wagner -among the riches we discovered after the fall of the iron curtain

certainly one of the most important ones- is an excellent example of that.

 

It reunites northern traits (his windchests, whose grooves are incredibly narrow

if we consider the volume of sound they can support, resemble Schnitger's),

traditionnal central german, and french (the reeds are after french measures!).

 

An example, too, of a kind of synthesis that works: compatible styles all from

the same period, not the chimera like "swell into Werk..."

 

This was the second step after Silbermann's which integrated french influencies,

better acclimated here, in a style I hold for historically even more significant

than Silbermann.

Wagner had an huge influence afterwards. Through his pupils (Marx etc) and the

author Schlimbach (whose descendants were organ-builders up to 1900), who 1811

still wrote with Wagner as the Primus inter Pares ! the belgian founder of the

romantic style, Hyppolite Loret, had this book as his first reference.

 

It is that way that I discovered the name of Wagner and went to pay a visit

to Angermünde.

 

If "Bach organs" exist, then Wusterhausen, Brandenburg Dom and Angermünde are,

with the Trosts and Hildebrandts, and the only Wender we have (Altenburg).

 

See here for Wusterhausen:

 

http://www.wagner-orgel-wusterhausen.de/

 

For Angermünde:

 

http://www.angermuender-sommerkonzerte.de/wagner_orgel.htm

 

Pierre

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Wouldn't that be the Wender in Arnstadt, Pierre?

 

@Nigel, I'm not really convinced that in passed times people were or could be as 'open' to a different 'implementation' as we can/care/should (and possibly willing to 'learn to eat it').

Take for instance the organ in Gouda, by flemish builder Moreau; in fact hopeless for the 'dutch way' of the time and (as far as I know) also considered to be so (and subsequently altered-to-tasted).

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
Take for instance the organ in Gouda, by flemish builder Moreau; in fact hopeless for the 'dutch way' of the time and (as far as I know) also considered to be so (and subsequently altered-to-tasted).

 

I know. It makes me wonder why such organ builders were asked to build such organs in the first place unless the builder surpasses personal and local taste. In another topic here about Manchester Town Hall in the North of England, it seems that a rather grand Cav-Coll was Anglicized and now even sports a traditional (and by all accounts), uncomfortable console. I suppose that some good organs fall foul to strong-willed local organists. But to get back to Gouda - do explain to us all what the 'dutch way' is and how the organ did not cope with it. This is what such a forum is all about and reinforces my statement in that earlier post about how we are able to learn so much from each other.

 

Best wishes,

Nigel

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"get back to Gouda - do explain to us all what the 'dutch way' is and how the organ did not cope with it. This is what such a forum is all about and reinforces my statement in that earlier post about how we are able to learn so much from each other. "

(Quote)

 

Indeed ! I'll let you start, Heva.

And yes I meant Arnstadt, my mistake...

 

Pierre

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One of the main differences in southern (flemish) and northern use of the organ would be defined by religion; Catholic vs. Protestant. I'm not sure if the organ was meant to accompany the protestant hymns/psalms, but if it were, than as far as I know the flemish organs, that would propably not be a success.

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The Moreau organ at Gouda is linked to one of the few registration treatises (perhaps a bit strong, at any rate a lengthy description of different registrations for different situations) linked to an Dutch 18th century organ. This was penned by Anaeas Egbertus Veldcamps, the 'champion' of the Dutch organ traditions who protested so heavily against the work carried out by F.C. Schnitger at Alkmaar. The Gouda registrations date from the time the organ was new, the late 1730s. It includes precise registrations for accompanying the psalms with both a large and small congregation present in the church. I am curious therefore what heva is referring to.

 

The qualities of the Gouda organ are presently rather obscure by the results of a poor restoration in the 1970s.

 

http://www.orgelsite.nl/gouda.htm

 

Greetings

 

 

Bazuin

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Here is another Moreau organ, of which the specification

after Moreau's work is given (first from top of the page):

 

http://www.orgels-en-kerken.nl/index/rotte...ekerk-orgel.htm

 

Not very flemish, rather dutch! there were more Pedal pipes there

than in the whole Flanders...

 

Pierre

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Another very beautiful organ is the Hinsz (a F-C Schnitger follower!)

in the Martinikerk in Bolsward, here with an improvisation:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B_J5BGLr-4

 

The organ dates 1781 and is in nearly original state, save the Bovenwerk

which was added in the 19th century.

 

Pictures and specification here:

 

http://www.petertenkate.nl/Bolsward.htm

 

 

Pierre

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I've just discovered this recording on the internet of the 1727 Muller organ at Leeuwarden:

 

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/www_publ...1_0832part2_128

 

With some rather ravishing transcriptions from Bach's Cantatas - some fine duet playing of music of eye-watering complexity and remarkable charm.

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I've just discovered this recording on the internet of the 1727 Muller organ at Leeuwarden:

 

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/www_publ...1_0832part2_128

 

With some rather ravishing transcriptions from Bach's Cantatas - some fine duet playing of music of eye-watering complexity and remarkable charm.

Utterly delicious! Thank you.

 

IFB

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Guest Nigel ALLCOAT
The qualities of the Gouda organ are presently rather obscure by the results of a poor restoration in the 1970s.

http://www.orgelsite.nl/gouda.htm

 

Having just returned from a French sojourn I am reading up on missed posts. I have viewed this link and the photos, and - do I see a swell pedal in one of them?

 

N

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With such an organ this does not disturbs me; it is a "living" wind,

as a slight vibrato which helps those tierces to pass in these chords.

Baroque organs are strange beats, ever ready to surprise.

 

Pierre

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With such an organ this does not disturbs me; it is a "living" wind,

as a slight vibrato which helps those tierces to pass in these chords.

Baroque organs are strange beats, ever ready to surprise.

 

Pierre

"Slight" vibrato??! :o Even so, I would rather not hear German late romantic music on them when such are the results! To orchestral musicians, not to say non-musicians, it just sounds like a bad fairground organ.

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Guest Cynic
"Slight" vibrato??! :o Even so, I would rather not hear German late romantic music on them when such are the results! To orchestral musicians, not to say non-musicians, it just sounds like a bad fairground organ.

 

 

Quite so. In case anyone reading our criticisms thinks that this represents antagonism towards either historic instruments or reconstructions in historic style, let it be remembered that the greatest authority of all, J.S.Bach was completely specific in his requirements about wind supply. He specified plentiful supplies of wind that if properly blown the reservoirs could never run out and soundboard bars with sufficient capacity that no amount of playing even with all stops drawn should ever render the pitch unstable.

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Quite so. In case anyone reading our criticisms thinks that this represents antagonism towards either historic instruments or reconstructions in historic style, let it be remembered that the greatest authority of all, J.S.Bach was completely specific in his requirements about wind supply. He specified plentiful supplies of wind that if properly blown the reservoirs could never run out and soundboard bars with sufficient capacity that no amount of playing even with all stops drawn should ever render the pitch unstable.

Here here. I suppose Bach got fed up of being laughed at when he neared the end of Dupré's Symphonie-Passion... :o

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I think the unstable wind in the case case has more to do with the way of the play of playing employed by Mr de Jaeger which is strictly intended for television (with the flutes of the Bovenwerk adding nothing to the plenum, and using unnecessary wind, but of course three-coupled looks good. Its another strange remnant of the Feike Asma tradition, and indeed FK played this piece regularly I think). The organ is by the Schnitger student Hinsz, the Bovenwerk mostly by Van Dam (19th century). Mr de Jager's playing is not nearly as bad as some in this style, this takes the biscuit:

 

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=4vXS_wVpIlI (and listen all the way to the end if you can bear it!)

 

Please note: 4 coupled manuals! The 4th (Brustwerk) at Kampen consists of Flutes 8'4'2' and a little Dulciaan. Pointless posturing and a complete lack of respect for one of the great monuments of Northern European organ building.

 

 

"Quite so. In case anyone reading our criticisms thinks that this represents antagonism towards either historic instruments or reconstructions in historic style, let it be remembered that the greatest authority of all, J.S.Bach was completely specific in his requirements about wind supply. He specified plentiful supplies of wind that if properly blown the reservoirs could never run out and soundboard bars with sufficient capacity that no amount of playing even with all stops drawn should ever render the pitch unstable."

 

Sure, but his comments have to be seen in context, he wasn't advocating Schwimmers! Flexible wind in the right context is a beautiful thing, this is just the wrong context.

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

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"greatest authority of all, J.S.Bach was completely specific in his requirements about wind supply. He specified plentiful supplies of wind that if properly blown the reservoirs could never run out and soundboard bars with sufficient capacity that no amount of playing even with all stops drawn should ever render the pitch unstable."

(Quote)

 

This is true....For the organs Bach knew; Hinsz belongs to the Schnitger school, which

is different.

 

Pierre

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I think the unstable wind in the case case has more to do with the way of the play of playing employed by Mr de Jaeger which is strictly intended for television (with the flutes of the Bovenwerk adding nothing to the plenum, and using unnecessary wind, but of course three-coupled looks good. Its another strange remnant of the Feike Asma tradition, and indeed FK played this piece regularly I think). The organ is by the Schnitger student Hinsz, the Bovenwerk mostly by Van Dam (19th century). Mr de Jager's playing is not nearly as bad as some in this style, this takes the biscuit:

 

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=4vXS_wVpIlI (and listen all the way to the end if you can bear it!)

 

Please note: 4 coupled manuals! The 4th (Brustwerk) at Kampen consists of Flutes 8'4'2' and a little Dulciaan. Pointless posturing and, in the way of playing, a complete lack of respect for one of the great monuments of Northern European organ building.

 

 

"Quite so. In case anyone reading our criticisms thinks that this represents antagonism towards either historic instruments or reconstructions in historic style, let it be remembered that the greatest authority of all, J.S.Bach was completely specific in his requirements about wind supply. He specified plentiful supplies of wind that if properly blown the reservoirs could never run out and soundboard bars with sufficient capacity that no amount of playing even with all stops drawn should ever render the pitch unstable."

 

Sure, but his comments have to be seen in context, he wasn't advocating Schwimmers! Flexible wind in the right context is a beautiful thing, this is just the wrong context.

 

Greetings

 

Bazuin

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The organ is actually used in a kind of tutti there. Note even the reed stop

of the third manual is drawn. So we have Diapason choruses, Flutes, Cornet(s)

and at least that reed stop.

It was certainly not intended to be used that way. In contemporary central Germany,

the organs already commenced to allow it (maybe also enforced by someone...)

 

Pierre

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Indeed. It's 'horses for courses' as we say. I'm not against 'live' wind per se: it can be beautiful and expressive if the styles of music and performance are matched to it.

 

" http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=4vXS_wVpIlI (and listen all the way to the end if you can bear it!) " - this was interesting! A touch of pre-restoration Royal Albert Hall on the last chord :o

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Indeed. It's 'horses for courses' as we say. I'm not against 'live' wind per se: it can be beautiful and expressive if the styles of music and performance are matched to it.

 

" http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=4vXS_wVpIlI (and listen all the way to the end if you can bear it!) " - this was interesting! A touch of pre-restoration Royal Albert Hall on the last chord B)

Thank you for this, Ian - I enjoyed this clip very much. I would give much to have that acoustic....

 

 

.... or in fact virtually any other acoustic from that which we have here.

 

B)

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