O Come, O Come Emmanuel

[OmegaConsort]

Just a bit of fun really, but this morning, as I played the refrain in the last verse, I was thinking about the last chord, was nearly tempted, but did, in the end, finish on E minor! Did anyone else?

Best wishes

 

Richard

[Guest Echo Gamba]

Just a bit of fun really, but this morning, as I played the refrain in the last verse, I was thinking about the last chord, was nearly tempted, but did, in the end, finish on E minor! Did anyone else?

Best wishes

 

Richard

 

If I reharmonize the last verse I usually end major. However, as the hymn is based on the "O" antiphons which are proper to the 17th December onwards, we shall not be singing it until Advent 4 !

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

However, as the hymn is based on the "O" antiphons which are proper to the 17th December onwards, we shall not be singing it until Advent 4 !

 

Quite correct! The tierce de picardie is vulgar, IMNVHO. Nothing quite so splendid as ending on a resounding minor chord with growling reeds.

[pcnd5584]

I end each verse on bare fifths - which avoids the problem and makes a pleasant change. I prefer the unresolved feel for the season of Advent.

[octave]

I end each verse on bare fifths - which avoids the problem and makes a pleasant change. I prefer the unresolved feel for the season of Advent.

 

 

Ah, this is a nice view on ending it in minor.

If only my director would think of it that way.

I had to end it in major this morning, also because otherwise it would clash terribly with what the orchestra was playing

[pcnd5584]

Ah, this is a nice view on ending it in minor.

If only my director would think of it that way.

I had to end it in major this morning, also because otherwise it would clash terribly with what the orchestra was playing

 

 

A good organist will always try to drown an orchestra (with regard to volume, naturally). This should solve the problem.

 

[sbarber49]

I use a reharmonization I wrote out in 1974. Its ending seems to have been heavily influenced by the Willcocks last verse arrangement of God rest ye merry, Gentlemen and ends with a major chord following some slightly clashing contrary-motion triads. Well, I like it!

 

Stephen Barber

[Philip]

We'll be doing the Willcocks arrangement of the refrain this evening at Advent Carols for two of the verses, ending on a major in the last one (the altos just need to sing a G# instead of G natural).

 

As well as the wonderful Willcocks arrangement of Lo, he comes, surely the only way to end an Advent Carol service.

[Guest Echo Gamba]

A good organist will always try to drown an orchestra (with regard to volume, naturally). This should solve the problem.

 

 

Easy for you with your artillery

[Paul Carr]

Easy for you with your artillery

 

I use the Andrew Carter arrangement. (as recorded on the Hyperion Advent at St Paul's CD and followed by John Scott playing Carter's Toccata on the same theme)

Carter's arrangement ends in the major, but E major would be very odd as the whole thing is written in F# minor!!

The last but one verse ends on the sub-dominant, always catches my basses out until they think back 12 months!!

[ick1508]

I end each verse on bare fifths

Neat idea, pcnd. But I went for the TdP this morning, as did the Radio 4 Morning Service.

I was just reading about early plainsong and wondered about playing a verse in fifths and octaves, organum style, then crashing into harmony for the chorus, but... maybe next year.

(someone had switched off the heating timer so we started at 5degC! Sticky notes here and there...)

Ian CK

[innate]

I ended both Long Ago, Prophets Knew and I Heard The Voice Of Jesus Say with a T de P this morning.

[JJK]

I'm afraid I succumbed to a final TdP in Veni Emmanuel

 

I'm rather interested to know what people do at the end of the first line? A pause, or straight through? I much prefer to go straight on without a pause, as it fits the words better - but this does seem to result in some consternation from the congregation....

 

JJK

[OmegaConsort]

I'm afraid I succumbed to a final TdP in Veni Emmanuel

 

I'm rather interested to know what people do at the end of the first line? A pause, or straight through? I much prefer to go straight on without a pause, as it fits the words better - but this does seem to result in some consternation from the congregation....

 

JJK

 

 

I tend to pause at the end of the first line..........dunno why........I guess it is how I did it as a boy?

[ick1508]

I'm rather interested to know what people do at the end of the first line? A pause, or straight through?

JJK

Ooh, good question! Well, they've already had two commas, where I gave them a breath, so no reason not to charge straight on through "...Emmanuel and ransom captive Israel..."

 

And of course, they get a breath in the right place in "... thou rod of Jesse, free thine own..." . No messing about with "freeeeee thine own".

 

But this is village church land with 60 in the pews and a very positive organ. I doubt that I could get away with such niceties in a big resonant building with 1000+ in the congo. The difficulties of successfully leading large congregations have been noted elsewhere on this board.

 

So, each to his (her) own!

Ian CK

[Guest Roffensis]

Just a bit of fun really, but this morning, as I played the refrain in the last verse, I was thinking about the last chord, was nearly tempted, but did, in the end, finish on E minor! Did anyone else?

Best wishes

 

Richard

 

 

Yes, guilty . I always have done too, purposely. Much more sombre!!

 

R

[Paul Morley]

How about minor chord with added 6th?????????????

[Vox Humana]

Ending a minor-key hymn with a tierce de Picardie is almost guaranteed to make me cringe. Organists have thought it so cool for so long that the effect has long since become totally hackneyed and passé. They are hardly ever really necessary. I am tempted to suggest that all of you who played one this morning should atone for your grievous sin by buying me a bottle of single malt for Christmas. The trouble is, though, that Veni Emmanuel is my one exception - I do play a Picardie third on the last chord!

 

As for pausing, if you want to stick to the earliest known plainsong version, you shouldn't pause anywhere, not even in the refrain (especially in the refrain) - or at least only slightly. Personally I ignore its plainsong roots altogether (or, rather I used to when I had a regular church job). I treat it entirely four-squarely, with a dotted-crotchet at the end of each line (assuming the tune is notated in quavers) and with an accompaniment consisting of a regular pulse of crotchet chords (cf. Willcocks's approach in C4C, but my harmony is different and I maintain the pulse throughout the refrain too). This effectively turns the piece into a relentless march. Congregations seemed to like it. I used to get comments about how it gave power to a tune that had previously seemed rather dreary.

[Colin Harvey]

How about hedging one's bets and finishing on an English Cadence?

[DouglasCorr]

....Hmmm. I just thought I would listen to the Advent Carols from Johns on Listen Again- only to find that, for some reason, it is not available on Listen Again.......!!??.....

 

I don't know what the BBC scheme is - but you can't rely on anything.....

[Guest Echo Gamba]

I ended both Long Ago, Prophets Knew and I Heard The Voice Of Jesus Say with a T de P this morning.

 

The Holst arrangement of the former does that anyway.

[innate]

....Hmmm. I just thought I would listen to the Advent Carols from Johns on Listen Again- only to find that, for some reason, it is not available on Listen Again.......!!??.....

 

I don't know what the BBC scheme is - but you can't rely on anything.....

I'd imagine that Advent Carols from John's falls into the same BBC listen-again category as Desert Island Discs, and (although I haven't checked this out) "DJ" programmes on R1 and R2.

[innate]

Ending a minor-key hymn with a tierce de Picardie is almost guaranteed to make me cringe. Organists have thought it so cool for so long that the effect has long since become totally hackneyed and passé. They are hardly ever really necessary. I am tempted to suggest that all of you who played one this morning should atone for your grievous sin by buying me a bottle of single malt for Christmas. The trouble is, though, that Veni Emmanuel is my one exception - I do play a Picardie third on the last chord!

I suspect that you've ruined your argument with that admission.

 

If I remember my music theory history correctly T de Ps were, rather than "hardly ever necessary", obbligatory at one time and place in music history; if we have rebuilt that time and place in the first decade of the 21st century then sobeit.

 

I'm hanging on to my single malts, thanks very much

[octave]

A good organist will always try to drown an orchestra (with regard to volume, naturally). This should solve the problem.

 

 

 

ahem. This afternoon, doing the same music in a different church (same choir, same orchestra) I miscounted and played the major chord with full organ (which is not cathedral size) after the fourth verse in the Wilcocks arangement. Only to realise there was another verse coming when it already started. The director "complimented" me on my counting skills....

[Vox Humana]

I suspect that you've ruined your argument with that admission.

 

If I remember my music theory history correctly T de Ps were, rather than "hardly ever necessary", obbligatory at one time and place in music history; if we have rebuilt that time and place in the first decade of the 21st century then sobeit.

 

I'm hanging on to my single malts, thanks very much

Ah yes, but the medievals were working to a modal system, whereas we work within a major/minor environment. The ways in which they operate and the place emotion plays in each are entirely different.* A Renaissance motet, or even a baroque piece, ending on a major third does not have that cloying sweetness imparted by the Romantic tierce de Picardie when used at the ends of hymns.

 

The point is, however, that those attending the churches where I used to play would virtually never experience a tierce de Picardie in a hymn, so I think I can continue to stand by my argument.

 

 

* Actually, whilst final chords under the modal system were normally major, exceptions do exist, so even that rule could be broken.