Great Gambas

[Colin Harvey]

What do Boarders think about the solo string chorus at Ely??

 

Contra Viola 16

Viole d'Orchestre 8

Viole Celeste 8

Viole Octaviante 4

Cornet de Violes III

 

When I was younger I thought it was rather a luxurious waste- but I haven't heard it since.....

I use it all the time...

[MusingMuso]

A few thoughts:

 

i) Isn't it interesting that string stops appear in all of the main romantic organ building traditions, BEYOND a beating pair of strings in the swell box? In the language of Cavaillé-Coll the Gamba/Salicional is the narrowest member of the 4 fonds of the GO. I think the 4 fonds are pretty much always used together, their strength is fairly equal.

 

ii)...which isn't the case in England where the Great 'fonds' are usually either loud or soft.

 

iii) The German Romantic tradition favours a strict hierarchy of 8' stops to achieve a seamless crescendo (literally ppp-ff), all upperwork is almost entirely for colour. I have regular contact with a Sauer organ from 1922, the Gamba on the Hauptwerk is rather strong, (stronger than in either England or France I guess), and, apart from its role in the foundation-ensemble, is rather more effective as a solo stop in the tenor register than any higher.

 

iv) I think the differences between Cavaillé-Coll and the first Henry Willis are more obvious than the similarities (and Lincoln is in any case atypical). Consider C-C's broader scaled 16' Plein Jeu and compare it with FW's narrow scaled, hard blown tierce mixtures. If I recall correctly, only after the first Henry Willis does the 8' Harmonic Flute appear on the Great (did this come from their absorption of the Lewis company on whose organs such a stop is 'normal'??)

 

A general point, the French and German Romantic organs imply far more standardised general registrational practices than the English organs. In the case of the German organ, this is evident in the layout of the console (the crescendo is implied in the order of the stop knobs) and in the order in which the Walze adds the stops. The English Gamba question could just as easily be applied to many other stops and probably the English organ builder had less of a fixed idea about how such a stop would, or at least should, be used.

 

Greetings

 

 

Bazuin

 

=============================

 

 

This reply is typical of those who do not fully appreciate the complex history of English organ-building, which usually starts with Snetzler begat Hill, and Gray & Davison begat Willis.....two different camps; one Germanic/English/Germanic. The other sort of mid-channel Cavaille-Coll.

 

There's no substitute for travelling north of Watford Gap.......I've mentioned the very interesting cosmpolitan City of Manchester before, with all the various experiments in the Victorian era, which included the mock and actual Cavaille-Coll instruments, as well as those belonging to the more indigenous tradition of Hill, Kirtland, Jardine etc. (They even took Chamades to America).

 

Now skip over our excuse for a mountain-range, the Pennines, unto the City of Sheffield.....Iron & Steel, Cutlery, Canals, Railways, Coal.....and interesting organs!

 

The story doesn't start with Schulze at nearby Doncaster; important though that was. The story starts before that, when one Charles Brindley trotted off the Germany to work under (Frederich?) Schulze at Paulinselle, long before the organ at Doncaster was built in 1862. I haven’t checked, but I believe that Charles Brindley set up in business in Sheffield, in 1854, or thereabouts, and had certainly built an organ for St George’s, Doncaster in 1857, prior to the installation of the huge Schulze organ five years later.

 

Look at the specification of the Brindley great organ at Doncaster, and it includes the German style Lieblichs and the Great Gamba; both these registers a regular feature of organs from this company, even after the partnership with Foster.

 

GREAT ORGAN

Lieblich Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedact 8

Gamba 8

Principal 4

Mixture 2 rks 12:15

Mixture 4 rks 12:15;17:19

 

Interestingly, Foster had studied voicing with both Willis and Cavaille-Coll, and knew all about different ways of doing things. Nevertheless, the company continued to build essentially German-style instruments right to the end, complete with their version of the Keglade chest which often proved troublesome. (A few exist.....one of them 5 miles away from me, and the other 8 miles away, but re-built). Interestingly, the “Brindgradus” pneumatic mechanism was similar to the “Walze” found on German romantic instruments.

 

It is often said, “Find yourself a tracker Brindley & Foster, and you will find a gem. Find a pneumatic one, and you’ve got a nightmare.”

 

The companies best tonal years seem to be in the 1870’s, when the head-voicer for B & F was not the old man Charles, but one Karl Schulze; believed to be the brother of Edmund, but in any event, a former Schulze man from Paulinselle.

“What’s all this got to do with effective use of a Great Gamba,” I hear the original questioner asking.

 

To answer the question, we first need to listen to an old-style Brindley & Foster, with its crystal-clear choruswork and lack of fluffy, English Diapason tone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLqUdEpSgg

 

A small organ of superb tonal quality, as that clip demonstrates.

 

Now a much, much later B & F instrument, wonderfully restored, at the Freemason’s Hall, Edinburgh, built at a time when other organ-builders had followed the path of the orchestral and expressive.

 

 

No wonder B & F fell from favour. Their organs were not reliable, and they were not very fashionable after the turn of the century. Nowadays, I hope we can appreciate the tonal quality for what it is; and Anglicised version of a German romantic organ.

 

I used to play a re-built B & F organ, and although it didn’t have a Great Gamba, it had an Open 2 which was stamped “Gamba 8,” and absolutely identical in scale to an enclosed “Salicional” on the Choir Organ, also stamped “Gamba 8.”

 

In other words, B & F were using standard scales, (possibly bought in from Courcelle in London?), and voicing them as they saw best.

 

Interestingly, even the ubiquitous “Open 1” was not loud, fluffy or large-scaled. It sang beautifully, and the build-up of the chorus, which ended with a 4 rks Quint Mixture, was not a million miles away from Schulze, but less loud. The Diapasons had a lot of German “edge” which some would describe as “Stringy,” and because they possibly followed Topfer-scaling (?), the trebles were quite bold and generous of tone. What was remarkable, and is remarkable in other B & F instruments, is the way that ALL the 8ft stops blend. A Hohl Flute sounds lovely with a Gamba, and a Gamba sounds lovely with a 4ft Flute. Add the Gamba to the Diapasons, and it adds almost nothing but a litle edge, but the 8ft Flute and Gamba combined, are a sort of half-way house to the bigger Diapason sound. Couple ALL the 8fts together, and the result is entirely agreeable, and THAT of course, is a feature of German romantic instruments especially. B & F organs also had the same terraced dynamics of their German counterparts.

 

Their finest work, was possibly the organ at Dewsbury, Centenary Methodist Church, with a Great organ chorus which rang around the chapel, sounding remarkably like a full-blown Schulze. (Now destroyed, unfortunately).

 

MM

[Tony Newnham]

=============================

 

 

This reply is typical of those who do not fully appreciate the complex history of English organ-building, which usually starts with Snetzler begat Hill, and Gray & Davison begat Willis.....two different camps; one Germanic/English/Germanic. The other sort of mid-channel Cavaille-Coll.

 

There's no substitute for travelling north of Watford Gap.......I've mentioned the very interesting cosmpolitan City of Manchester before, with all the various experiments in the Victorian era, which included the mock and actual Cavaille-Coll instruments, as well as those belonging to the more indigenous tradition of Hill, Kirtland, Jardine etc. (They even took Chamades to America).

 

Now skip over our excuse for a mountain-range, the Pennines, unto the City of Sheffield.....Iron & Steel, Cutlery, Canals, Railways, Coal.....and interesting organs!

 

The story doesn't start with Schulze at nearby Doncaster; important though that was. The story starts before that, when one Charles Brindley trotted off the Germany to work under (Frederich?) Schulze at Paulinselle, long before the organ at Doncaster was built in 1862. I haven’t checked, but I believe that Charles Brindley set up in business in Sheffield, in 1854, or thereabouts, and had certainly built an organ for St George’s, Doncaster in 1857, prior to the installation of the huge Schulze organ five years later.

 

Look at the specification of the Brindley great organ at Doncaster, and it includes the German style Lieblichs and the Great Gamba; both these registers a regular feature of organs from this company, even after the partnership with Foster.

 

GREAT ORGAN

Lieblich Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedact 8

Gamba 8

Principal 4

Mixture 2 rks 12:15

Mixture 4 rks 12:15;17:19

 

Interestingly, Foster had studied voicing with both Willis and Cavaille-Coll, and knew all about different ways of doing things. Nevertheless, the company continued to build essentially German-style instruments right to the end, complete with their version of the Keglade chest which often proved troublesome. (A few exist.....one of them 5 miles away from me, and the other 8 miles away, but re-built). Interestingly, the “Brindgradus” pneumatic mechanism was similar to the “Walze” found on German romantic instruments.

 

It is often said, “Find yourself a tracker Brindley & Foster, and you will find a gem. Find a pneumatic one, and you’ve got a nightmare.”

 

The companies best tonal years seem to be in the 1870’s, when the head-voicer for B & F was not the old man Charles, but one Karl Schulze; believed to be the brother of Edmund, but in any event, a former Schulze man from Paulinselle.

“What’s all this got to do with effective use of a Great Gamba,” I hear the original questioner asking.

 

To answer the question, we first need to listen to an old-style Brindley & Foster, with its crystal-clear choruswork and lack of fluffy, English Diapason tone.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLqUdEpSgg

 

A small organ of superb tonal quality, as that clip demonstrates.

 

Now a much, much later B & F instrument, wonderfully restored, at the Freemason’s Hall, Edinburgh, built at a time when other organ-builders had followed the path of the orchestral and expressive.

 

 

No wonder B & F fell from favour. Their organs were not reliable, and they were not very fashionable after the turn of the century. Nowadays, I hope we can appreciate the tonal quality for what it is; and Anglicised version of a German romantic organ.

 

I used to play a re-built B & F organ, and although it didn’t have a Great Gamba, it had an Open 2 which was stamped “Gamba 8,” and absolutely identical in scale to an enclosed “Salicional” on the Choir Organ, also stamped “Gamba 8.”

 

In other words, B & F were using standard scales, (possibly bought in from Courcelle in London?), and voicing them as they saw best.

 

Interestingly, even the ubiquitous “Open 1” was not loud, fluffy or large-scaled. It sang beautifully, and the build-up of the chorus, which ended with a 4 rks Quint Mixture, was not a million miles away from Schulze, but less loud. The Diapasons had a lot of German “edge” which some would describe as “Stringy,” and because they possibly followed Topfer-scaling (?), the trebles were quite bold and generous of tone. What was remarkable, and is remarkable in other B & F instruments, is the way that ALL the 8ft stops blend. A Hohl Flute sounds lovely with a Gamba, and a Gamba sounds lovely with a 4ft Flute. Add the Gamba to the Diapasons, and it adds almost nothing but a litle edge, but the 8ft Flute and Gamba combined, are a sort of half-way house to the bigger Diapason sound. Couple ALL the 8fts together, and the result is entirely agreeable, and THAT of course, is a feature of German romantic instruments especially. B & F organs also had the same terraced dynamics of their German counterparts.

 

Their finest work, was possibly the organ at Dewsbury, Centenary Methodist Church, with a Great organ chorus which rang around the chapel, sounding remarkably like a full-blown Schulze. (Now destroyed, unfortunately).

 

MM

 

Hi

 

Brindley started in business in 1854, the B&F name dates from 1870 - see http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/ESearch.cgi?

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[Pierre Lauwers]

"I hope we can appreciate the tonal quality for what it is; and Anglicised version of a German romantic organ."

(Quote)

 

This organ seems to be splendid, but it does not sound "german" to my ears. The reeds and the Mixtures

are undboubtly british. By the way, it is encouraging to note such an instrument has been restored !

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

"I hope we can appreciate the tonal quality for what it is; and Anglicised version of a German romantic organ."

(Quote)

 

This organ seems to be splendid, but it does not sound "german" to my ears. The reeds and the Mixtures

are undboubtly british. By the way, it is encouraging to note such an instrument has been restored !

 

Pierre

 

=========================

 

You are absolutely right Pierre, because what I failed to mention was the fact that the style of Brindley & Foster changed after the death of Charles Brindley, and presumably Karl Schulze also. Bear in mind that 1913 was the start of the "Orchestral Organ" era in the UK and America, and only a decade prior to the first theatre-organs.

 

Even the workmanship changed, in that Foster was a very skilled engineer, and saw distinct advantages in standarised components. Although he won an award at a major exhibition, (the one after the Great Exhbition of 1851), his pneumatic-action design was prone to unrealiability in active service; clever though it was.

 

Tonally, by the turn of the century, B & F were introducing big flute sounds, (Flute Majico and similar),and that is heard in the YouTube clip, as well the heavier, more English Diapason tone: not that they ever really went for the more robust Schulze sound, with its slower speech and very large scales. We must also bear in mind that Foster, who was probably the dominant influence as time went on, had trained with Willis and, if the story is true, with Cavaille-Coll (possibly when the big Cavaille-Coll organ was installed at Sheffield, which no longer exists).

 

I wish I could find better examples of what a larger, 1870-80 Brindley & Foster organ sounded like, but the little organ in Australia gives a brief clue as to the quality of the chorus-sound to be found from this period. I know that the Dewsbury organ I mentioned was quite breathtakingly bold, and far better than most organs of the period.

 

So yes, it is an English sound, but with a distinct nod towards the German organs of Schulze in particular, rather than

towards anything French or heavily English Orchestral. Compared with, for example, a Norman & Beard organ of identical vintage, the differences are remarkable.

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Just as an afterthought, specifically for Pierre, I wonder if he has ever heard the great Schulze organ at St Bartholomew's, Armley?

 

I've been looking for a YouTube clip of this organ, and came across one almost by accident under the heading "Graham Barber," who is, of course, the organist of the church.

 

The photograph is definitely NOT St.Bart's church, but the organ certainly is the restored Schulze.

 

Does THIS sound specifically like any other German organ of the mid-19th century, I wonder?

 

 

It's also useful to bear in mind that Charles Brindley had a hand in the making of the Schulze instruments, actually voiced quite a lot of the pipework at Doncaster Parish Church, and worked closely in collaboration with Schulze. Brindley also installed the Schulze at Armley after it was removed from St.Peter's, Harrogate, which in turn had come from the home of the Kennedy family in Meanwood, Leeds, where Schulze first installed it.

 

It says something about the quality of the instrument that all those who have worked on it, have treated it with enormous respect....Brindley, J J Binns and, most recently, Harrison & Harrison.

 

I think the sound speaks for itself without further elaboration.......mind blowingly good!

 

MM

[Pierre Lauwers]

"I wonder if he has ever heard the great Schulze organ at St Bartholomew's, Armley?"

(Quote)

 

Yes, in Situ !

(And I won't forget It....)

 

The members of the french forum ask for the Specifications of tha Edinburg organ.

Do you have it ?

 

Pierre

[MusingMuso]

"I wonder if he has ever heard the great Schulze organ at St Bartholomew's, Armley?"

(Quote)

 

Yes, in Situ !

(And I won't forget It....)

 

The members of the french forum ask for the Specifications of tha Edinburg organ.

Do you have it ?

 

Pierre

 

 

 

 

 

================================

 

 

My pleasure Pierre.

 

PEDAL

 

Resultant Bass 32

Open Diapason 16 (Ext rank A)

Bourdon 16 (Ext rank

Echo Bourdon 16 (From Swell)

Principal 8 (Ext rank A)

Bass Flute 8 (Ext rank

Trombone 16

 

 

CHOIR

 

Viole d'Orchestre 8

Hohl Flute 8

Dulciana 8

Lieblich Flute 4

Harmonic Piccolo 2

Clarinet 8

Vox Humana 8

Trumpet 8 (From Great)

 

Tremulant

 

 

GREAT

Open Diapason 1 8

Open Diapason 2 8

Geigen Principal 8

Clarabella 8

Principal 4

Flute Harmonic 4

Fifteenth 2

Trumpet 8

 

 

SWELL

 

Lieblich Bourdon 16

Violin Diapason 8

Lieblich Gedackt 8

Salicional 8

Voix Celeste 8 TC

Gemshorn 4

Mixture III rks (Probably 15:19:22/8:12:15)

Cornopean 8

Hautboy 8

 

 

Tremulant

 

 

COUPLERS

 

Swell to Pedal

Swell to Great

Swell to Choir

Swell octave to Great

Swell suboctave to Great

Swell octave

Swell suboctave

Choir to Great

Choir to Pedal

Choir octave

Choir suboctave

Great to Pedal

 

 

 

Notice the reduced amount of upperwork compared to earlier organs from the firm, as well as the inclusion of a larger toned Clarabella on the Great.

 

This instrument incorporates the "Brindgradus" stop control system, which I think worked on ventils and preselected certain combinations, as well as incorporating a crescendo pedal.

 

I agree that the restoration is very welcome when so many very good Brindley and Brindley & Foster organs have been lost to us.

 

MM

 

PS: I don't know why the letter Bee comes out as a sly smile with sunglasses!!!!!

[Pierre Lauwers]

Thanks, MM!

 

Pierre

[justinf]

PEDAL

 

Resultant Bass 32

Open Diapason 16 (Ext rank A)

Bourdon 16 (Ext rank

Echo Bourdon 16 (From Swell)

Principal 8 (Ext rank A)

Bass Flute 8 (Ext rank

Trombone 16

 

Hi MM, and thank you for the links and enlightening posts. If you look at it sideways, 'Capital B - Right Parenthesis' bears some resemblance to sunglasses and a smile. I think that unchecking "Enable emoticons?" in Post Options will stop that; The proof will be if this post renders properly!

 

Update: It worked. You should be able to go back and do a 'Full Edit' on your post to change the emoticon option.

 

P.S. For those interested, the Brindley & Foster organ in in Sydney.