Stuck At Home In The Snow, I'm Bored - Stoplist Time, Anybody?

[Cavaillé-Cool]

My proposition isn't as the french neoclassic organs but is in the tradition of Dalstein-Hærpfer (Boulay) between 1863 and 1914. This sort of organ is in the middle of Walcker and Cavaillé-Coll (Johann Karl Hærpfer was Walcker's student and met Dalstein when Cavaillé-Coll was at the construction of Saint-Sulpice in Paris).

 

If you see my stoplist, you can find elements of french symphonic organ (harmonic flutes, french trumpet, harmonic progression as carillon I-III, details reed), and elements of german orgnbuilding (kegelladen, conical stops like gemshorn, terz-mixtur like the fourniture of grand-orgue, flûte majeur — no harmonic, two mouth opposed, salicional 16). I think this sort of instruments are the better to play great pieces of Liszt and other german composers.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Here is a later Delmotte organ (1959-60), and one of the best ones, which could meet

much approval nowadays in Britain; its specification resemble many of your projects

on this board:

 

http://fxgrandjean.googlepages.com/auvelais,eglisest-victor

 

The organ has electro-pneumatic action after a system inspired by an organ Klais

built 1930-33 for the Kristuskoning church in Antwerps. Since 1960 it needed only

a partial re-leathering (swell soundboard), and its state is excellent. A reliable,

sound organ we consider already an historic one. We apologize it is not for sale,

though there might be others of the same kind that might be available.

 

Pierre

[ajsphead]

Ah well, in for a penny, in for a pound. It snowed again here this morning, and I'm the only one who's managed to get in so far.

 

GREAT

 

Bourdon 16 with quintathon trebles

Principal

[ajsphead]

Ah well, in for a penny, in for a pound. It snowed again here this morning, and I'm the only one who's managed to get in so far.

 

GREAT

 

Bourdon 16 with quintathon trebles

Principal 8

Gedeckt 8

Octave 4

Rohr Flute 4

Super Octave 2

Sesquialtera 12 17 II

Mixture 19 22 26 29 IV-VI

 

Tremulant

Sub Octave

 

 

SWELL

 

Gemshorn 8

Celeste 8

Tapered Principal 4

Principal 2

Sharp Mixt. 22 26 29 33 IV

Basson 16

Trompette 8

Hautbois 8

 

Tremulant

Octave

Sub Octave

 

 

PEDAL

 

Principal 16

Subbass 16

Octave 8 wooden/bearded

Bourdon 8

Choral Bass 4

Fagott 32 1/2 length wooden

Posaune 16 wooden

 

 

and if it was 30 stops rather than 30 ranks add

 

CHOIR

 

Holzgedeckt 8

Salicional 8

Principal 4

Koppel Flute 4

Nazard 2 2/3

Octave 2 bright

Krummhorn 8

Trompette Harmonique 8

 

Tremulant

 

Usual 6 couplers

Assisted mechanical action

 

Choir bracketed out in front, Swell behind, Great above Swell with no roof, Pedals in sides.

Slight transient attack permitted

Heavy metal with a high lead content, hammered.

 

AJS

[Cavaillé-Cool]

"Joke specification"

 

II) Hauptwerk (61 notes)

01 Quintatön 16

02 Klein Prinzipal 8

03 Bourdon 8

04 Praestan 4

05 Superoktav 2

06 Kornett V

07 Oberacutascharffmixtur X (1/8)

08 Spitztrompete 8

09 Spitzclarion 4

 

I) Rückpositiv (61 notes)

10 Quintatönlein 8

11 Prinzipal 4

12 Rhorflœte 4

13 Nasat 2 2/3

14 Quarte 2

15 Terz 1 3/5

16 Larigot 1 1/3

17 Hochymbel V (1/6)

18 Baërpfeiferegal 16

19 Klein Krummhorn 8

 

III) Brustwerk (enclosed, 73 notes)

20 Gedackt 8

21 Gedackt céleste 8

22 Flœte 4

23 Prinzipal 2

24 Ripieno IV (1/4)

25 Schamey 8

 

Pedalwerk (32 notes)

26 Praestan 16

27 Subbass 16

28 Oktavbass 8

29 Choralbass 4

30 Posaune 16

 

I/II (tiroir), III/II sub, uniss, super

I/P, II/P, III/P

Tremulant I, II, III

[Pierre Lauwers]

Here is another one, with 32 stops (it was meant for another

exercise of that kind on the french forum).

 

A Specification for Bach's music with limited room in height.

It has two drawbacks:

 

1)- Nor 32' tone nor synthetic 32' (10 2/3')

 

2)- Normaly the Hinterwerk replaces the Brustwerk, while here we have both.

We should normally have: Hauptwerk, Oberwerk and Hinterwerk.

 

For the rest there is nothing there Bach did not knew, of course:

 

HAUPTWERK

 

Quintadena 16'

Principal 8'

Flöte 8'

Gemshorn 8'

Gedackt 8'

Octave 4'

Quinta 2 2/3'

Oktave 2'

Sesquialter 2r 1 1/3'- 4/5', then 2 2/3'- 1 3/5'

Mixtur 5r 1 1/3'

Trompete 8'

 

BRUSTWERK

 

Quintadena 8'

Gedackt 8'

Principal 4'

Nachthorn 4'

Quinta 2 2/3'

Oktave 2'

Tritonus 1 3/5' ( Principal scale)

Cimpel 3r

 

HINTERWERK

 

Lieblich Gedackt 8'

Viola di Gamba 8'

Gedackt 4'

Nassat 2 2/3'

Waldflöte 2'

Tertia 1 3/5' (Between Flute and Principal, cf. J. Wagner)

Hautbois 8' (After Casparini, between modern Hautbois and a Regal)

 

PEDAL

 

Suppass 16'

Principal 8'

Hohlflöte 4'

Posaun-Bass 16'

Trompete 8'

Cornett 4' (Reed)

 

Pierre

[Dulciana]

I'd thought of this as being for a small to medium-sized parish church, and a Violone is often more flexible. The Bourdon on the Great is for French repertoire, where a Contra Geigen or Double Diapason would be too powerful.

 

But, as a whole, it doesn't look particularly "French" (at least to my eyes), and coherence was one of the things we were after. I must say I still prefer an open double.

[David Coram]

Tracker action, on large gallery with free-standing console.

 

There are two consoles within one box, at 90 degrees to each other; one side is a 'standard' 3m + P organ, the other is 1m and pedals.

 

The lowest keyboard can change function with the operation of a lever; it can be connected to the Choir organ (Positif) or 8 and 4 foot flutes located within the console itself as an Echo. Whichever of these divisions is in use by the main console, the 'back console' does the other. So you have two organs available for double organ masses, a soft echo 8 and 4 for teaching and demonstrating short passages, and the potential for duets and improvisations is huge. I think it could have some use, that, assuming a heavily-visited town church which can get some income from teaching.

 

 

ECHO (within console)

 

Stopped Diapason 8

Stopped Flute 4

 

(all metal pipes tuned at ears for minimum maintenance)

 

 

CHOIR

 

Chimney Flute 8

Stopped Flute 4

Blockflute 4

Gemshorn 2

Sesquialtra II

Mixture III

Voix humaine (encl)

Trompette (encl)

Tremulant

 

 

GT

 

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Gamba 8

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture IV

Trumpet 8

 

SW

 

Bourdon 16

Violin Diapason 8

Celeste 8

Lieblich Gedact 8

Principal 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture III (Tierce on second draw)

Hautboy 8

Cornopean 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

 

PED

 

Bourdon 16 (perm on at 1m console)

Principal 8

Fagot 16

 

 

Apart from an Open 16 and Flute on the pedal, and a double manual reed, what more could one want?

[bazuin]

"Tracker action, on large gallery with free-standing console.

 

The lowest keyboard can change function with the operation of a lever; it can be connected to the Choir organ (Positif) or 8 and 4 foot flutes located within the console itself as an Echo."

 

This is just like the Michaelerkirche in Vienna. I'm guessing you've been. The stops in the console are intended as a continuo division.

 

Here is an idea for a 30 rank choir organ for the Anglican liturgy, assuming a second organ to accompany big services in the nave.

 

Great

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Salicional 8

Bourdon 8

Octave 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2, 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (17, 19, 22)

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

 

Swell

 

Open Diapason 8

Gamba 8

Voix Celestes 8

Cor de nuit 8

Principal 4

Harmonic Piccolo 2

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Oboe 8

Vox Humana 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

Solo

Harmonic Flute 8 (Gt)

Harmonic Flute 4 (Gt)

Trumpet 8 (Gt)

Clarion 4 (Gt)

 

 

Pedal

 

Open Diapason 16 (metal)

Subbass 16

Violincello 8

Trombone 16'

 

i) Unison couplers plus Swell Sub Octave and Sub Octave to Great

ii) Mechanical Action with servo-pneumatic lever

iii) Detached terraced console at floor level facing conductor

iv) Great Reeds on higher pressure, voiced smoother than those in the Swell, and enclosed in their own swell box. With the box closed they behave as chorus reeds, with box open they more or less double the power of the tutti, (hence their inclusion on the 'borrowed' solo)

 

My idea about the Great 8' stops is to have the traditional French group of fonds 8' plus the large Open Diapason I. I'm guessing (because I never saw such a compromise between the French and English way of grouping Great foundations) that this might not work.... I would have liked a Clarinet but I couldn't decided what to lose.

 

The snow's gone, so I'll get back to work now...

 

Bazuin

[David Coram]

"Tracker action, on large gallery with free-standing console.

 

The lowest keyboard can change function with the operation of a lever; it can be connected to the Choir organ (Positif) or 8 and 4 foot flutes located within the console itself as an Echo."

 

This is just like the Michaelerkirche in Vienna. I'm guessing you've been. The stops in the console are intended as a continuo division.

 

No, I haven't been. I just thought it would make something interesting. It was an idea I thought I had about a year ago for a church in Salisbury which is close to several schools and Sarum College and would therefore make a great teaching centre.

[Pierre Lauwers]

....

 

Here is an idea for a 30 rank choir organ for the Anglican liturgy, assuming a second organ to accompany big services in the nave.

 

Great

 

Double Open Diapason 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Salicional 8

Bourdon 8

Octave 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2, 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (17, 19, 22)

Trumpet 8

Clarion 4

 

Swell

 

Open Diapason 8

Gamba 8

Voix Celestes 8

Cor de nuit 8

Principal 4

Harmonic Piccolo 2

Double Trumpet 16

Trumpet 8

Oboe 8

Vox Humana 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

Solo

Harmonic Flute 8 (Gt)

Harmonic Flute 4 (Gt)

Trumpet 8 (Gt)

Clarion 4 (Gt)

 

 

Pedal

 

Open Diapason 16 (metal)

Subbass 16

Violincello 8

Trombone 16'

 

i) Unison couplers plus Swell Sub Octave and Sub Octave to Great

ii) Mechanical Action with servo-pneumatic lever

iii) Detached terraced console at floor level facing conductor

iv) Great Reeds on higher pressure, voiced smoother than those in the Swell, and enclosed in their own swell box. With the box closed they behave as chorus reeds, with box open they more or less double the power of the tutti, (hence their inclusion on the 'borrowed' solo)

 

My idea about the Great 8' stops is to have the traditional French group of fonds 8' plus the large Open Diapason I. I'm guessing (because I never saw such a compromise between the French and English way of grouping Great foundations) that this might not work.... I would have liked a Clarinet but I couldn't decided what to lose.

 

 

Bazuin

 

This is a very interesting one, no doubt. But I think you need a Mixture in the Swell

to go with the reeds chorus ("Full Swell"). This could be a Cornet as well.

 

Pierre

[Colin Harvey]

"Joke specification"

 

II) Hauptwerk (61 notes)

01 Quintatön 16

02 Klein Prinzipal 8

03 Bourdon 8

04 Praestan 4

05 Superoktav 2

06 Kornett V

07 Oberacutascharffmixtur X (1/8)

08 Spitztrompete 8

09 Spitzclarion 4

 

I) Rückpositiv (61 notes)

10 Quintatönlein 8

11 Prinzipal 4

12 Rhorflœte 4

13 Nasat 2 2/3

14 Quarte 2

15 Terz 1 3/5

16 Larigot 1 1/3

17 Hochymbel V (1/6)

18 Baërpfeiferegal 16

19 Klein Krummhorn 8

 

III) Brustwerk (enclosed, 73 notes)

20 Gedackt 8

21 Gedackt céleste 8

22 Flœte 4

23 Prinzipal 2

24 Ripieno IV (1/4)

25 Schamey 8

 

Pedalwerk (32 notes)

26 Praestan 16

27 Subbass 16

28 Oktavbass 8

29 Choralbass 4

30 Posaune 16

 

I/II (tiroir), III/II sub, uniss, super

I/P, II/P, III/P

Tremulant I, II, III

 

:-) I like the cynicism of this. I'm sure I would have a Lieblich Gedacht somewhere...

 

Maybe a "Kein Crumbhorn" as well

[OmegaConsort]

No, I haven't been. I just thought it would make something interesting. It was an idea I thought I had about a year ago for a church in Salisbury which is close to several schools and Sarum College and would therefore make a great teaching centre.

 

hmm.......would that be St Osmunds, or perhaps either St Marks or St Martins??

Richard

[David Coram]

hmm.......would that be St Osmunds, or perhaps either St Marks or St Martins??

Richard

 

None of the above! St Martins should never be touched by human hands, except to play (and maybe confiscate the electric extended pedal ranks).

[AJJ]

None of the above! St Martins should never be touched by human hands, except to play (and maybe confiscate the electric extended pedal ranks).

 

They are allowable perhaps - don't you think- because the rest is so good!

 

A

[David Coram]

They are allowable perhaps - don't you think- because the rest is so good!

 

A

 

I wouldn't mind if they were nice, and had a steady wind supply. The Trombone is antisocial.

[Colin Harvey]

Well, the leg is not much better and the telly's not good this evening... so here's an idea for a 30 rank organ, designed to accompany "The Anglican Liturgy" (more specifically, Choral Evensong in a cathedral - an organ for the Cathedral quire, assuming another organ for use in the nave with congregations of c.2,000)- and little else.

 

Before I give the spec, there are a few points I should make.

 

Many of those practitioners in the field of "TAL" feel strongly that 4 manuals is the ideal. From my somewhat more limited background, as an amateur that can only count the number of times he has played for Choral Evensong in a Cathedral over the past year on the fingers of one hand, I tend to concur with this view (although I would never subscribe to the view that every "full sized" organ should follow the ideal of at least 4 manuals). This is how I tend to think of the 4 manuals:

 

Swell: The backbone of the accompaniment sounds. This is the fallback position in case anything goes wrong and I plan everything from here. The swell pedal is a friend! Full swell is rarely employed with the box open.

Great: adds more body (mainly 8&4 foundation) to the sound of the SW for crescendos and masking additions to the swell under the swell box.

Choir: for those moments when the boys (or sops) are singing alone. For quiet, delicate sounds, usually without pedals. If there is no Choir organ, I use the quiet stops on the GT or stick to the Sw without pedals but this makes the organ less varied and more difficult to manage.

Solo: for solo sounds, e.g. Clarinet, solo flute, etc... best enclosed. If there is no SO, I have to hit a piston and use the GT or CH, which makes the organ harder to manage. If there's no solo organ and the choir organ is home to the solo stops, it helps for the Ch to be enclosed, but choir enclosure is less important if the clarinet and other solo voices are on an (enclosed) solo division.

Pedal: Generally permanently coupled to the Swell and frequently coupled to the Great. It just needs to provide relative volume of sound at 16' pitch most of the time but having some 8' for more definition and (generally subtle) 32' is nice to have too.

 

Couplers: The Gt to Pd coupler gets the most manipulation - generally I have the choir and solo uncoupled, Sw to Ped and Sw to Gt are on almost permanently...

 

There is no great need for the accompanimental organ to be loud at all. The requirements of blend, appropriate volume, subtly and variety of sound are much more important, along with the need of easy manipulation and very good swell boxes. 4' is vital to be heard but a screeching mixture is next to useless: the Great organ is far better served having 16,8,4 foundations for solemn moments and more gentle stops to mask the swell organ coming in behind it. The Great foundations lose more if they are too loud and can't be used freely under the choir singing.

 

I don't think provision of "full swell" is as important as providing good 8 & 4 swell foundations and an oboe. I tend to spend nearly all my time with at least some Swell 8 & 4 and the oboe is used a lot as well. With me, full swell is usually reserved for specific moments and effects only - I actually find a swell 4' flute in addition to a swell principal more useful than a swell 16' reed).

 

So here goes:

 

Swell Organ (Enclosed, 13 ranks)

 

1. Open Diapason 8

2. Stopped Diapason 8

3. Echo Gambe 8

4. Voix Celestes 8

5. Principal 4

6. Flute 4

7. Piccolo 2

8. Mixture III (15.19.22)

9. Faggotto 16 (full length, wood throughout)

10. Cornopean 8

11. Oboe 8

i. Tremulant

 

Great Organ (7 ranks)

 

12. Double Diapason 16

13. Open Diapason 8

14. Stopped Diapason 8

15. Principal 4

16. Harmonic Flute 4

17. Twelfth 3

18. Fifteenth 2

 

Choir Organ (4 ranks)

 

19. Dulciana 8

20. Lieblich Gedact 8

21. Gemshorn 4

22. Flute 4

ii. tremulant

 

Solo Organ (Enclosed, 3 ranks)

 

23. Harmonic Flute 8

24. Clarinet 8

25. Ophliechide 8

iii. Tremulant

 

Pedal Organ (3 ranks)

 

26. Double Dulciana 32

27. Open Diapason 16

28. Dulciana 16 (ext)

29. Principal 8 (ext)

30. Trombone 16

 

Usual Couplers: SW-GT, SW-CH, SO-SW, SO-GT, SO-CH, CH-GT, SO-PD, SW-PD, GT-PD, CH-PD

 

The superiority of a pedal Dulciana over a Bourdon was noted as long ago as 1858. It can be just as gentle but provides more defined notes. I think a small scale, full length 32' flue is vastly superior to a 32' Bourdon, which has problems with standing waves and - hence - regulation, due to the sound emanating from one point only. A 32' dulciana will have more subtle uses than a large 32 Open wood, while still lending gravity to fuller combinations when required.

 

So there we go: No Great Mixture or reeds (I'm counting on the Solo Ophliecide being coupled down when something really loud from the organ is needed), no choir upperwork and no pedal mixture. Thoughts?

[OmegaConsort]

None of the above! St Martins should never be touched by human hands, except to play (and maybe confiscate the electric extended pedal ranks).

 

I only ask as I grew up in Salisbury! Also, I was a treble at St Martins for a very short time (between two other Salisbury Churches!).

So David, if you still are not letting on.....St Thomas? St Paul's or perhaps St Edmunds before it was made redundant? Or is it a non-conformist church? Maybe Brown St Baptist?

Best wishes

Richard

[pcnd5584]

I wouldn't mind if they were nice, and had a steady wind supply. The Trombone is antisocial.

 

At the console this is certainly the case. Is it any better in the main body of the building? (I cannot remember.)

 

Again, the question is - should this organ have been altered (or at least augmented) tonally in the first place? The action is unquestionably greatly improved.