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Liverpool Cathedral Organ Appeal

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Guest Stanley Monkhouse

Details of WA celestial were in BIOS journal about 2000 I think. Like other correspondents, and despite my increasing cynicism after more than half a century on the planet, I am amazed how quickly history can be rewritten (eg Mixture compositions and other details of Liv Cath organ) by those in power. On the other hand, plus ça change.

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"how quickly history can be rewritten (eg Mixture compositions and other details of Liv Cath organ) by those in power. "

(Quote)

 

This is right to the point !

A solution: give the power to historians.

 

Pierre

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Isn't a worrying state of affairs when Liverpool Cathedral has announced their intention to spend so much money on the organ, and it seems impossible to even assertain what the mixture compositions were a generation ago!?

Reading through the thread, it seems clear that the septiemes (except one) were dropped immediately, but the tierces were in place, at least until 1977. What I can't find is a clear statement of what's in the mixtures now. Are there now less tierces? No tierces?

 

Paul

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Guest Cynic
Reading through the thread, it seems clear that the septiemes (except one) were dropped immediately, but the tierces were in place, at least until 1977. What I can't find is a clear statement of what's in the mixtures now. Are there now less tierces? No tierces?

 

Paul

 

 

Less tierces.

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Didn't Ken Dodd have a hit song about this subject?

 

"Tierces for souvenirs are all you've left me"

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Guest Roffensis
Less tierces.

 

 

Quite so.

 

And of course we all know that the house of Willis never bothered with Tierces. :lol:

 

 

How many Willis organs do you know with Tierces in the Mixtures? :blink:

 

Come on!! ;)

 

This is getting silly!! :D

 

Listen to Salisbury. :huh:

 

It's ALL Quints!!! :rolleyes:

 

R

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Quite so.

 

And of course we all know that the house of Willis never bothered with Tierces. :lol:

 

 

How many Willis organs do you know with Tierces in the Mixtures? :blink:

 

Come on!! ;)

 

This is getting silly!! :D

 

Listen to Salisbury. :huh:

 

It's ALL Quints!!! :rolleyes:

 

R

 

Hmm

 

Salisbury still has tierce mixtures and cone tuned as well as Truro, St Mary's Ipswich, Giggleswick School Chapel and no doubt the Ally Pally organ and many more I'm sure.

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Hmm

 

Salisbury still has tierce mixtures and cone tuned as well as Truro, St Mary's Ipswich, Giggleswick School Chapel and no doubt the Ally Pally organ and many more I'm sure.

 

Do you know what irony is, Baldrick?

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Guest Cynic
Do you know what irony is, Baldrick?

 

According to a programme on Radio 4 recently, Americans have not (until recently) adopted sarcasm as a form of wit.

The case quoted as making sarcasm intelligible to the USA population in general was in the quasi-infantile comedic motion picture Wayne's World, where a statement clearly (to us) incorrect is followed by the word 'not'.

 

Practical example: I might say..

 

I very admire and respect the radical modifications made to several historic organs between 1960 and 1975 to the designs of the present chairman of BIOS

 

[pause]

 

- not.

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When I was in the United States (for several periods in the 80's),

I had to care to avoid any belgian joke....A collegue of us actually

landed in jail for some hours for a joke in the airport.

And note this was long before September 2001...

There is a reason for this: humor being very idiosincratic, it is always risky

in a country made of people with very diverse origins.

 

Pierre

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When I was in the United States (for several periods in the 80's),

I had to care to avoid any belgian joke....A collegue of us actually

landed in jail for some hours for a joke in the airport.

And note this was long before September 2001...

There is a reason for this: humor being very idiosincratic, it is always risky

in a country made of people with very diverse origins.

 

Pierre

 

 

Was it the joke about the bomb in the hand luggage?

 

Goes down well, that one; Straight to Jail; do not collect $200!!

 

:rolleyes:

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"Was it the joke about the bomb in the hand luggage? "

(Quote)

 

Not even ! he was asked to remove his clock before passing

trough the control, and answered something like "beware of

electric schock, it is trapped".

Enough to get some problems...

 

Pierre

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Quite so.

 

And of course we all know that the house of Willis never bothered with Tierces. :lol:

 

 

How many Willis organs do you know with Tierces in the Mixtures? :blink:

 

Come on!! ;)

 

This is getting silly!! :D

 

Listen to Salisbury. :huh:

 

It's ALL Quints!!! :rolleyes:

 

R

St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin and Lincoln Cathedral are the only 2 that readily spring to mind without tierces. What you've said here has raised an important point. The balance of most Fr Willis tierce mixtures are different from the run of the mill English tradition Tierce mixtures. There are some exceptions, for example, I personally find the Sw III in St Pauls quite strong. I remember once adamantly wanting to put a Tierce mixture on the Gt of a late Fr Willis in place of some Dutch factory pipes c1971, and the organist telling me he would resign if I did. The mixture is there by the way. He was clearly listening with his mind and not his ears - neurologically speaking of course this does not hold up, but I think you know what I mean.

 

I think Fr Willis got them right, bright with a bit of zing, not thick and clanky.

 

AJS

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Guest Cynic
St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin and Lincoln Cathedral are the only 2 that readily spring to mind without tierces. What you've said here has raised an important point. The balance of most Fr Willis tierce mixtures are different from the run of the mill English tradition Tierce mixtures. There are some exceptions, for example, I personally find the Sw III in St Pauls quite strong. I remember once adamantly wanting to put a Tierce mixture on the Gt of a late Fr Willis in place of some Dutch factory pipes c1971, and the organist telling me he would resign if I did. The mixture is there by the way. He was clearly listening with his mind and not his ears - neurologically speaking of course this does not hold up, but I think you know what I mean.

 

I think Fr Willis got them right, bright with a bit of zing, not thick and clanky.

 

AJS

 

 

In short, small scale?

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"I personally find the Sw III in St Pauls quite strong"

(Quote)

 

Which was named "Cornet" !

 

Pierre

 

I checked this out in the St Paul's book and apparently it was originally called Echo Cornet by Father Willis.

 

Do you think it was a Dulciana Cornet, then? I wonder ... has another one bitten the dust?

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A Dulciana Cornet, certainly not !

But something else than a "Mixture" as made by Willis under that name,

for sure.

 

Pierre

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A Dulciana Cornet, certainly not !

But something else than a "Mixture" as made by Willis under that name,

for sure.

 

Pierre

So I suspect the intention was different, particularly if it was first referred to as echo cornet, of which I cannot think of another example in similar context. As it seems like an unusual example, I wonder if there is any documentary evidence for the choice, or of a metamorphosis to the existing sound - purely for interest's sake you understand, would hate to get small minded and retentive over such things.

 

AJS

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In short, small scale?

Generally speaking, small scale, 4 1/2 mouth, driven hard. The 17th subject to the quint, which in turn is subject to the unison. However it's not a stop in isolation, it is made as part of the chorus, scales as per the Willis textbook, carefully thought through and successful. This is what annoys me when obvious Willis, or any other firm for that matter who worked to known and understood principles, choruses have stops, particularly mixtures, added, which can be done so in a sympathetic style, if not necessarily in strict historical recreation, and are not. Wiilis being a particularly good example of gaining brilliance from a 17 19 22/ 12 15 17 mixture if you know what you're doing. I saw another example just this last week, so it is still clearly not understood yet. We know enough now to do better.

 

Rant over, but this is a point of artistry, respect and understanding which by now should have been sorted out.

 

AJS

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Here is a link that might be interesting:

 

http://www.organrecitals.com/stpauls.php

 

It illustrates the whys and the hows Willis organs have been tinkered with

since a century...

 

The "Echo Cornet, III ranks" was not at all a "gentle stop" at St-Paul,

it was rather an essential part of the prototype of the "Full Swell".

The "Echo" term soon dissepeared afterwards. It probably meant "enclosed",

and nothing else.

The Swell division at St-Paul was so effective that it became a model with many

builders.

Even in remote, provincial Belgium, it is well known "St Paul has a terrific Swell

you only need to draw 16-8-4 reeds and the Cornet to get its complete effect,

you do not even need the rest save maybe the 2' flue".

 

In the french town of Bourg-en-Bresse, the organ of the Cathedral has a tierce Mixture

in the Swell after the british Full-Swell concept.

 

Pierre

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St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin and Lincoln Cathedral are the only 2 that readily spring to mind without tierces. What you've said here has raised an important point. The balance of most Fr Willis tierce mixtures are different from the run of the mill English tradition Tierce mixtures. There are some exceptions, for example, I personally find the Sw III in St Pauls quite strong. I remember once adamantly wanting to put a Tierce mixture on the Gt of a late Fr Willis in place of some Dutch factory pipes c1971, and the organist telling me he would resign if I did. The mixture is there by the way. He was clearly listening with his mind and not his ears - neurologically speaking of course this does not hold up, but I think you know what I mean.

 

I think Fr Willis got them right, bright with a bit of zing, not thick and clanky.

 

AJS

 

St Patrick's Dublin is Henry II, of course.

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