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What Does "tc" Mean?


SinaL
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It means the rank stops at Tenor C and does not have its own bass, this is quite common on ranks such as Voix Celeste.

I sometimes see "TC" on specifications, especially on string stops, and once on a reed.

What does this mean???

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I sometimes see "TC" on specifications, especially on string stops, and once on a reed.

What does this mean???

Tenor C. It means that this is the lowest note for the stop and that there are no pipes for the bottom octave. The stops that most commonly have a tenor C compass are Voix Celeste, Vox Angelica and Clarinet.

 

(Snap! Took too long replying!)

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Tenor C. It means that this is the lowest note for the stop and that there are no pipes for the bottom octave. The stops that most commonly have a tenor C compass are Voix Celeste, Vox Angelica and Clarinet.

 

(Snap! Took too long replying!)

 

Thanks, I saw it once on a Fanfare Trumpet at Holy Trinity Sloane Square, London. do you think it was because there was no space to fit the bottom octave pipes?

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Thanks, I saw it once on a Fanfare Trumpet at Holy Trinity Sloane Square, London. do you think it was because there was no space to fit the bottom octave pipes?

 

Lack of space could have been the reason, however, having played this organ many years ago, I suspect the reason was to remove the temptation of coupling to pedals and manuals as one can do with a full compass solo reed !

 

A

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Thanks, I saw it once on a Fanfare Trumpet at Holy Trinity Sloane Square, London. do you think it was because there was no space to fit the bottom octave pipes?

As already stated, there could be a temptation to send a Solo sound like this to the pedals (to reinforce sic the Pedal line of the music). But if it was called Fanfare Trumpet (and still is I think), then I think that (like its namesake) it only plays music in reality, from the Treble Clef.

The Solo keyboard of the French Solo organ (Récit) from the Baroque times normally only start at Middle C (with Cornet V and a Reed - often the most brilliant Trompette). It is unable to be coupled to any other keyboard.

 

I have often wondered how many octaves are actually necessary on Solo stops - certainly even on an English Romantic instrument. Tenor C for most is still often a few notes too many I would argue. What about the top octave? Does that get used very much or at all? It would be good to ask those players with large instruments to write down when and where these upper and lower octaves get used in a month. I don't know a piece using a Tuba that requires the top octave. (How extreme does Cocker go - up and down -, or Whitlock and Willan? My copies went years ago on Ebay so nothing to hand!)

 

Best wishes,

Nigel

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I have often wondered how many octaves are actually necessary on Solo stops - certainly even on an English Romantic instrument. Tenor C for most is still often a few notes too many I would argue. What about the top octave? Does that get used very much or at all?

Why limit their compass, though, if the pipes of Solo stops are going to be going on the soundboards along with the other full compass ranks?

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The Gt Cornet on my instrument is TC which I believe is normal.

Yes, indeed, and sometimes Cornets only go down as far as Middle C. But this is due to the sound of the mutation ranks ceasing to blend at lower pitches.

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Why limit their compass, though, if the pipes of Solo stops are going to be going on the soundboards along with the other full compass ranks?

What solo stops need to be full compass on a Solo organ? Just wondering. There is a matter of cost, really. The French were seemingly being sensible in only having what was necessary. Also it took up far less room. At Tenor C on an open 8ft, remember, you have only a 4ft pipe. Think how much smaller an expression box could be too to accommodate such ranks! Less cost again. It could go towards better casework or another rank or two.

I have spent a little time trying to remember when I actually wanted a full compass of a stop on a Solo organ. I can't except for 10 years ago at Coventry Cathedral for a recording - and that was rather special. Like the old French organs - English organs are still basically two manuals (Great & Swell) with others for solos (Solo) or effects, or a gentle array of colour for more subtle accompaniment (Choir). French was Grand-orgue and Positive (Full compass) and coupleable, Récit for solos (Middle C) Echo (Ten. C).

One thing that I would go with though, is a Resonance division. Why so few (if any in the UK)? This is wicked under the right hands/feet and far more use than an old fashioned Edwardian solo if I had to make a choice.

Best wishes,

N

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One thing that I would go with though, is a Resonance division. Why so few (if any in the UK)? This is wicked under the right hands/feet and far more use than an old fashioned Edwardian solo if I had to make a choice.

Best wishes,

N

 

What's that? :(

 

What are its essential characteristics and purpose?

 

Where's the nearest one?

 

Who composed for such an organ division?

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What's that? :(

 

What are its essential characteristics and purpose?

 

Where's the nearest one?

 

Who composed for such an organ division?

 

Quoted from an organ builder as I haven't got any time at the moment: The four manuals of this organ represent different divisions - the Great Organ, the Positiv Organ, the Swell Organ and the Pedal Organ. In addition to this, the 4th Manual (top keyboard) represents a unique division in this organ. It is called the Grand Choir Resonance. It is an idea that comes from the French School of organ building. The Grand Choir Resonance Division Manual plays the most of the entire Pedal Division on the 4th Manual. A pedal board has 32 notes and a stop only requires pipes for these 32 notes. However, with the Grand Choir Resonance Division, each of those pedal stops is extended with the proper number of pipes to play the full 61 notes of the manual. This opens up many unique registration colors and is most valuable in service playing, especially offering a lot of alternate colors for accompanying hymns. It also gives a fabulous richness to the organ in playing French Toccatas and other large literature where the pitch line is high on the keyboard.

I prefer this department to be the lowest of all the keyboards in actual fact. A noted builder of this remarkable kind of building is Jean-Esprit Isnard. More recent organs with such divisions just called Grand-Choeur that you can hear just over 2 hours from London:

Saint-Eustache 19 stops

Notre-Dame 14 stops

Saint-Séverin (Résonance) 12 stops

Saint-Sulpice 13 stops

Basilique Notre-Dame-du-Perpetual-Secours (Résonance) 8 stops

 

Best wishes,

N

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What solo stops need to be full compass on a Solo organ? Just wondering. There is a matter of cost, really. The French were seemingly being sensible in only having what was necessary. Also it took up far less room. At Tenor C on an open 8ft, remember, you have only a 4ft pipe. Think how much smaller an expression box could be too to accommodate such ranks! Less cost again.

I don't like the idea of limiting the compass of solo stops merely on grounds of cost, even if they're not frequently used throughout their entire compass.

 

Pity that you disposed of your copy of the Cocker.... :P:D Not only is it a good crowd pleaser, but I've a feeling that Cocker may have required coupling the Tuba down to the pedals on the last page, and thus required it to go all the way down to bottom D! :(

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Pity that you disposed of your copy of the Cocker.... :P:D Not only is it a good crowd pleaser, but I've a feeling that Cocker may have required coupling the Tuba down to the pedals on the last page, and thus required it to go all the way down to bottom D! :(

 

This direction isn't marked on my score, but I've heard it done this way many times.........

 

G

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Quoted from an organ builder as I haven't got any time at the moment: The four manuals of this organ represent different divisions - the Great Organ, the Positiv Organ, the Swell Organ and the Pedal Organ. In addition to this, the 4th Manual (top keyboard) represents a unique division in this organ. It is called the Grand Choir Resonance. It is an idea that comes from the French School of organ building. The Grand Choir Resonance Division Manual plays the most of the entire Pedal Division on the 4th Manual. A pedal board has 32 notes and a stop only requires pipes for these 32 notes. However, with the Grand Choir Resonance Division, each of those pedal stops is extended with the proper number of pipes to play the full 61 notes of the manual. This opens up many unique registration colors and is most valuable in service playing, especially offering a lot of alternate colors for accompanying hymns. It also gives a fabulous richness to the organ in playing French Toccatas and other large literature where the pitch line is high on the keyboard.

 

Thanks for information. - But it leaves me with more questions - I thought generally that the scaling of pedal stops would make them too loud on the manuals. Also, in recent years manual 32' stops have been seen as irrelevant and removed (Ely)....

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Thanks, I saw it once on a Fanfare Trumpet at Holy Trinity Sloane Square, London. do you think it was because there was no space to fit the bottom octave pipes?

 

The Fanfare Trumpet at Sloane Square is of the projecting-from-the-caseword type - to make the botton octave would require some pretty impressive engineering to support it. I do recall a recitalist (I think it was Peter Hurford, but it's a long time ago and I may be maligning him) using this stop coupled to the pedal, with the inevitable result - nothing in the bottom octave.

 

Beating stops (Celestes etc.) hardly ever extend to the bottom octave as tuning them is near impossible - the in-tune rank pulls them into tune.

 

Regards to all

 

John

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  • 1 month later...
Lack of space could have been the reason, however, having played this organ many years ago, I suspect the reason was to remove the temptation of coupling to pedals and manuals as one can do with a full compass solo reed !

 

A

Update for Fanfare Trumpet enthusiasts: H&H will add the bottom octave in 2011/12 !

 

A

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Guest Roffensis

Not having the time or indeed patience to read through all replies to this highly demanding question means I may repeat that answered in great length elsewhere.

 

T.C. actually stands for Top Cat, the famous TV character. B)

 

 

R

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Of course one reason for having an english solo organ with full compass stops is that a combination of these stops is often used to form a second "full swell" effect. On some instruments, like Coventry and St Mary Redcliffe, where the swell organ is very loud the alternative of using the solo or echo division is almost essential for choral accompaniment. It is also very useful if you're attempting to register and play one of the french double organ masses on a single instrument to have two contrasting "full swells" available.

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Good point. It's worth bearing in mind the organ at Southwark Cathedral. This organ has the Great Organ in an arch facing west into the south transept (and from there, down the nave) with the solo box behind the Great soundboard, speaking west. The Swell Organ is in the arch facing north into the choir, with the Choir Organ in front of the Swell box (until its unfortunate relocation to the north side of the choir, which I feel does nothing but confuse the sound of the organ).

 

It's very interesting to note the Solo is home to a Trombone 16' and a Harmonic Trumpet 8', both enclosed in the Solo box. I believe the most likely explanation for these stops here is that T.C.Lewis put them here to make the Solo act as a secondary Swell Organ behind the Great organ, both speaking west into the Nave. The Swell Organ isn't really ideal to act behind the Great Organ on this organ: in the Quire, one hears the Swell Organ very directly while the Great Organ is rather remote, while in the nave, the balence is more in favour of the Great Organ. The balence is never quite right (except for one spot in the crossing) and I feel the combination of Great and Swell (without Choir and Solo organs) lacks focus on this organ.

 

When one looks at the Swell Organ and the fairly large chorus on the Choir Organ (which runs from 16' flue to mixture), one can't but help think the Choir Organ was designed to act as a secondary Great Organ speaking north for the choir, with the Swell Organ behind it for the full-swell effect, while the main Great Organ was designed to speak West, with the Solo organ acting as a secondary Swell organ. So it's really 2 Gt & Sw organs in one, each facing in different directions, one for the choir and one for the congregation.

 

I think it's a brilliant piece of organ design: for services in the Quire, one uses *Choir Organ* and Swell Organ, occasionally augmented with a bit of Great and Solo for echos and remote solos, while for Nave based services, one uses the Great Organ and *Solo Organ* (in its Swell organ function), using the Choir and Swell organs as a foil to this combination, or to lead the participants in the Quire. When one combines this design with the superb tonal qualities of this wonderful organ, it really becomes something very special.

 

And so we put T.C. on the names of some stops of other organs to pay hommage to that master organ builder, T.C.Lewis...

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  • 3 weeks later...

Reminds me of a Kentish birdwatcher I once met. Turned out that he used to sing a serious tenor in Matthew Best's Corydon Singers and claimed to have once had a decent top C. In deference to his hobby I've always thought of him since as the Tennessee Warbler (you can Google it if you're that interested). I doubt he would have minded either.

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