Jump to content
Mander Organs
andyorgan

Swine Flu

Recommended Posts

Avoid any pork scratchings tho!!!!!!

 

B

 

I phoned the NHS helpline about swine flu but all I got was some crackling.

 

yes, I know, it's an old one already

 

P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A magnificent wedding at Chester Cathedral yesterday, Ian Roberts, the assistant DOM, the full nuptial mass, the works. Musically magic. At communion the Dean announced that it was bread only, no wine. A free churchman beside me said why not use their little cups. Maybe something C of E should consider permanently.

 

 

Difficult with a Cathedral congregation of 500 communicants at major festivals - I don't fancy the washing up afterwards! Mind the new routine does knock a good 10 minutes off the main Sunday morning eucharist. And the Celebrant now has a bottle of Cuticare as well as the lavabo bowl on the credence table.

 

Here in Ripon & Leeds diocese the Sri Lankan form of greeting at the Peace is encouraged - hands together and slight bow/inclination of the head; reverence and humility combined with none of the usual wandering about.

 

JS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Stanley Monkhouse

'the Sri Lankan form of greeting at the Peace is encouraged' namaste - wonderful idea. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My daughter aged 4 1/2 has swine flu. She is going around the house making pig noises and foraging for food she has hidden. My wife also has swine flu; she is not graced with the same sense of humour. I do not have swine flu, and retain a penchant for bacon sandwiches.

 

AJS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sent this to COIN recently. Some found it amusing. Most didn't comment.

 

On Sunday we had our normal sung Eucharist, but with a Baptism. Our usual congregation of twenty or so was augmented by about forty adults and a few children plus the candidate herself of course, who seemed to be about three months old.

People began arriving twenty minutes before the service and there was much greeting and introducing in the carpark and at the church door. It was obvious that some in the baptismal party had come a considerable distance - hugs and more, handshakes - you get the picture..

 

I played the opening voluntary, nothing of consequence given the prevailing noise level, just the 'Weinachtsmann' variations. Finished that, some people still milling around a bit but all looking to start settling down; improvised on the first hymn tune for a couple of minutes, finally got the 'nod' from the priest, and we started the service.

 

First hymn - sixty plus people, each standing within a foot or two of three or four others, pushing exhaled breath out of their mouths under pressure, complete with particle expelling sibilants and the occasional coughs and splutters which are a feature of all church services everywhere.

 

Introduction, confession, absolution, readings, everyone sitting there reloading their bronchial weaponry for the Gradual. Not having contributed to the hymn choice process, I was a bit surprised to be playing "Lord of the Dance", which I have always thought was a bit sinister for joyful occasions. Still, they all knew it and belted it out, together with whatever particles were loaded into their respiratory armament.

 

Then, horror of horrors!, the priest advances upon the infant, signs her forehead with an unsterilised digit, before inviting the whole of the immediate baptismal group to do the same. Not long after this, in the spirit presumably of ensuring an even and thorough spread, the whole congregation is instructed to stand, about turn, face the rear (where situated, is the font), to watch the priest cradle the poor unsuspecting infant, mouths just inches apart, and breathe into her face whilst tipping water (brought to church in a plastic bottle, and one can only ponder the opportunities there must have been to include a list of pathogenetic nasties in that little process), over her forehead.

 

This poor little scrap of humanity, having now been converted into a seething hotbed of infection, is handed back into the bosom of her family, presumably to complete the process of wiping out every trace of them.

 

At which point we descend into farce. The Peace. Having by now spent forty minutes jostling around, breathing over each other, greeting each other, 'passing the parcel' with baby Erin,[for it was she], and generally behaving like ordinary sentient humanity, we now witness the ludicrous aspect of sixty otherwise intelligent persons obeying the advice of our Archbishops,forwarded by the churchwarden, standing back from each other and waving.

The priest and I shook hands firmly - deciding that on balance, this suicidal action of ours was the lesser fatuousness when compared to what was going on in the nave. We also entertained the hope that the aliens could return and take us back to our own universe, hopefully before the end of the service and returning home to find we were married to a Hewlett Packard printer cartridge, or some such.

 

I have no idea what went on during the distribution, having decided to bury myself into my duties at the console. I did notice that as I came to the end of "Man, Bewail Thy Grievous Sin" for the second time, there still seemed to be a whole bunch yet to go through. So I played it again, transposing tenor for treble, and then again with the alto line in the pedal - sounded ridiculous - won't do it again.

 

Now, I am not possessed of a theological intellect, or any other variety of intellect come to that, so I rely heavily upon gut feeling, instinct, primitive logic, subjective common-sense and so forth. It seems to me that whilst the two elements, the bread and the wine are inextricably linked, inseperable,in symbiotic relationship, it is the passing of the cup which most symbolises the sharing aspect of the Eucharist, with the bread pointing more to the physical presence of Christ. ( I am sorry if that comes across as theological nonsense, but it is how it sits with me, so I am stuck with it). If the cup is withheld for any reason, then in my primitive, doubtless erroneous reasoning, the communion is incomplete. I am aware that greater minds have determined otherwise, but they have not attracted me.

 

Returning to the the service on Sunday: Given all that went before, are we really to accept that passing the cup, albeit with perhaps a little more attention to hygene between one communicant and the next, presents more than a theoretically greater risk, compared to the amount of ordinary interaction which preceeded presence at the communion rail ?

At the risk of opprobrium being heaped upon this ignorant head, I feel that withholding the chalice has an air of hysteria about it. And of course, to catch an infection from another, that other has to actually have it in the first place.

 

Will I actually post this? Dunno yet.

 

Keep it clean,

 

Chris Baker - The Incompetent Organist - Durham UK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Patrick Coleman

Alltopedal's symbolic understanding is fine (though the theology is far more nuanced) and the story takes us back to common sense, which we will continue to follow here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I sent this to COIN recently. Some found it amusing. Most didn't comment.

 

On Sunday we had our normal sung Eucharist, but with a Baptism. Our usual congregation of twenty or so was augmented by about forty adults and a few children plus the candidate herself of course, who seemed to be about three months old................

 

 

.............Will I actually post this? Dunno yet.

 

Keep it clean,

 

Chris Baker - The Incompetent Organist - Durham UK

 

Glad that you did. It's one of those inspired pieces of writing that help to make this board so entertaining for the rest of us! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the church where I played last Sunday, the vicar informed the congregation that the common cup would not be withdrawn at next week's Eucharist, but that arrangements would be made so that communicants could receive either in one or both kinds, as they saw fit. She closed her remarks with the words,

 

'Friends, you are adults, and I intend to treat you as adults'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
At the risk of opprobrium being heaped upon this ignorant head, I feel that withholding the chalice has an air of hysteria about it. And of course, to catch an infection from another, that other has to actually have it in the first place.

 

Chris Baker - The Incompetent Organist - Durham UK

 

Bravo!

 

You are quite right, there IS an air of hysteria but it is also more cynical I think: the constant assurances which we all receive regarding how much all of the 'Agencies' are doing to protect us is one thing, but the withdrawal of the Chalice is really nothing to do with preventing us from getting it (the 'flu , that is), it's more to do with them being able to say we didn't get it there because, they also, did as much as possible to protect us - of course they didn't, as you relate above!

 

A brief look at various information sources will reveal that 'Flu is with us all of the time and the deaths due to it are high in number each year, with some years being just a little more generous. In a really bad year we might expect more deaths from 'ordinary' 'Flu than we are told we might get from this bout.

 

Personally, I'm more concerned about the numbers dying from other things each year, most of which those who pretend to protect us are not even vaguely concerned about (and in the case of Smoking-Related diseases, the Government tax-take is enormous).

 

I was heartened to see that at least one clergy person mentioned in these discussions thought it sensible to treat her communicants as sensible adults. This protection thing is getting out of hand (actually, it's already way beyond that I think) and, as with the 'protection' issues in airports etc., at what point does their protection of my person become assault?

 

:lol:

 

DW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
as older people are at greater risk of complications from flu.

 

my partner is a housing warden at a sheltered housing complex a few miles from Ripon, and she was diagnosed with "swineflu" on monday. She has been told that she has to be back at work on sunday 2nd aug,. And that was from her superior at Harrogate District Council. I just told her to check with her doctor 1st, am I right?

Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
my partner is a housing warden at a sheltered housing complex a few miles from Ripon, and she was diagnosed with "swineflu" on monday. She has been told that she has to be back at work on sunday 2nd aug,. And that was from her superior at Harrogate District Council. I just told her to check with her doctor 1st, am I right?

Peter

Peter

See http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dt/browse/l.../S75861-34108X/ which hopefully will clarify the position. I wouldn't like to go back to work if I didn't feel fit, especially if there were any risk to other people.

 

R

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peter

See http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dt/browse/l.../S75861-34108X/ which hopefully will clarify the position. I wouldn't like to go back to work if I didn't feel fit, especially if there were any risk to other people.

 

R

 

It is quite improper for ANY employer - be it the often-at-itself NHS, incompetent Councils or all us other poor souls who actually have to run businesses - to insist on a return-to-work-date if certification has been obtained. Make sure that the details of the conversation are properly recorded with time, date, circumstances etc. for later reference.

 

DW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Our chalice has gone altogether - wine needs to be pre booked if one wants it - alcohol wipes due soon for when one arrives - letter from diocese read out last Sunday - clergy not to visit in case of SF - 'advised to ring NH direct or the other lot.

 

A

I think I may have had it, but to be honest I'm not sure, anyway stayed away from work & church for a week just in case.

 

Really there is mass histeria going on, and the ridiculous hand cleansing & non-use of the chalice shame the church imho. As for instructing clergy not to visit the sick, that strikes me as altogether more serious. Surely that's an important part of their calling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

Surely some people are mixed up as to what is a Virus and what is a Germ/Bacteria. As I know it a virus cannot reproduce without a living host and Bacterium is a completely self-contained and self-reproducing unit. All this talk of the Chalice spreading Swine 'flu, I think is tosh. BUT the one thing you don't have to do I imagine is shake hands. The Peace is far more dangerous a time in the Mass! The next most dangerous time is shaking hands with the Priest as you leave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Patrick Coleman
As for instructing clergy not to visit the sick, that strikes me as altogether more serious. Surely that's an important part of their calling.

 

Absolutely correct. But when doctors are allegedly being instructed not to visit patients, are you surprised? A little bit of common sense is required. If I have a stinking cold I will not pay my usual daily visit to a dying person because I know how much more awful it is for people to die with breathing/pulmonary/brochial complications brought on by an infection on top of what they already have. However, if the family asks for the last rites or the person asks for the Vicar, then I go regardless.

 

Whather you're hysterical depends what you read, and what you read in the paper doesn't always reflect the advice that has actually been given.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

Surely some people are mixed up as to what is a Virus and what is a Germ/Bacteria. As I know it a virus cannot reproduce without a living host and Bacterium is a completely self-contained and self-reproducing unit. All this talk of the Chalice spreading Swine 'flu, I think is tosh. BUT the one thing you don't have to do I imagine is shake hands. The Peace is far more dangerous a time in the Mass! The next most dangerous time is shaking hands with the Priest as you leave.

 

Whilst a virus by definition can't replicate except by hijacking the machinery in the cell of another organism, depending on the species a virus can be spread by phyiscal contact, transmission of blood products, sexual contact, aerosolised droplets (doctorspeak for sneezing) etc etc. The concern over the chalice would be

 

1. risk of transmission through the albeit tiny amounts of saliva left on the cup after each person has sipped;

2. risk of transmission through the albeit tiny amounts of saliva that inevitably get dropped into the chalice and swim around inside;

3. risk of transmission through virus particles from the hands of one holder being passed via the cup onto the hands of another person (unless the celebrant holds the chalice to the communicants' mouths and doesn't allow them to touch it.

 

The risk of spreading influenza is mitigated by good personal hygiene (frankly from a biological perspective most people are pretty lax yet amazingly we survive regardless). So not shaking hands would be a sensible precaution, and probably welcomed by many on these forums! Actually I rather like the potential for creativity this epidemic brings - alcohol gel in place of water for dipping into on entry to the church could clean off a few germs, Sri Lankan greetings etc add a new twist to an otherwise tired peace ritual for some. Nigel's probably right about shaking hands with the priest!

 

Contrabombarde

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So not shaking hands would be a sensible precaution, and probably welcomed by many on these forums! Actually I rather like the potential for creativity this epidemic brings - alcohol gel in place of water for dipping into on entry to the church could clean off a few germs, Sri Lankan greetings etc add a new twist to an otherwise tired peace ritual for some. Nigel's probably right about shaking hands with the priest!

 

Contrabombarde

 

I have a little container of alcohol gel in the door of my car, and use it after visiting supermarkets, practicing in churches, and so on, as well as before eating when I'm not eating at home. I understand that alcohol gel inactivates the H1N1 virus.

 

My son was exposed to swine flu and became sick, however tests were no longer being offered except for people in high risk groups so we don't know for sure that he had swine flu. Sampling in Australia indicated that over 90% of flu infections this season have been H1N1. We put liquid soap dispensers around the house and instigated an aggressive hand washing policy, limited the area of the house that he was in, including insisting that he used the guest bathroom only. The rest of the family were not infected.

 

I have followed the developing understanding of H1N1 on the 'Center for Infectious Disease Research & Policy, University of Minnesota' site. Recommended for keeping the hysteria in perspective.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/index.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here in deepest Cornwall it is same as a large number of other areas......................No chalice for the great unwashed - the Priest receives the wine on behalf of us all. No shaking hands, hugging or kissing at the Peace or shaking hands with the Clergy on the way out.

 

NS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My church does not use the chalice but has refused to stop the hand shaking in the Peace or indeed the ritual handshake with the Priest when leaving. This has a far higher risk than using the chalice, we have the Bishop with us on Sunday it will be interesting to see what he does. I do wish there was some kind of conformity within the Church of England, is this too much to ask?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do wish there was some kind of conformity within the Church of England, is this too much to ask?

 

Hmm, it would be a first if there were, wouldn't it?

 

R.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...