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Lyme Regis


cverey
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Sorry to put a dampener on this but this case doesn't really work for me. The mouldings at the top of the pipe towers look odd - I would expect a freize, topped by architrave and moulding, as per standard architectural practice. Just having the large architrave as here looks all wrong to me, especially in the context of this fairly traditional case. It's interesting - Skrabl have provided cases with correct architectural details before so why haven't they done it here? I find their more eastern European style cases to be their most successful.

 

To my eyes, the entire organ looks too big for the gallery and isn't in correct proportion to its surroundings. I don't like the look of the rest of the organ appearing to spill out behind the case either. Also, are those beards around the mouths of the bass pipes in the towers? What are they doing on this style of organ?

 

Anyway, I'm sure it's a vast improvement on whatever was there before and I think the church at Lyme Regis are to be congratulated on their new installation, even if certain aspects of the details and design don't really appeal to me.

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Enormous specification looks fantastic too! Spec. Lots of stops per £ !

 

Wow what an instrument!

 

I wonder whether, given "only" enough funds for two manual 16 foots, whether people would generally find it more useful to have both bourdon and contra reed on the Swell, or whether a 16 foot flue on Great and 16 foot reed on Swell - or maybe even vice versa - would be more versatile or useful? I would have thought to put the 16 foot flue on the Great to bolster hymn singing and add gravitas myself, but is that widely followed?

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Dear Colin - feast your eyes. I think the new is a huge improvement.

 

16'? I like Swell Bourdons because they have so much use in making full swell-like noises with few stops. Also you can save on a 4' Flute by using 16 and 8 up an octave. Here, there are more than a few stops - and there's a Swell Flute too. On paper, it smacks slightly - and don't ask me to elaborate, because I don't believe I could - of the sort of thing you'd expect to be a product of the 70s or early 80s, missing only a Sifflote 1 and a 2' pedal reed.

 

Here are the specifics I don't understand -

 

Why have a Positive which is effectively a Cornet decompose with a 2' Principal rather than Flute? (Subscribers to Orgue-l can give chapter and verse on this.)

 

Why have a Cymbelstern and not put its workings in the Swell box, where some dynamic control is made possible?

 

The only other organ I have ever (knowingly) encountered with a tremulant on all three manuals is New College.

 

Why have such a mixture of nomenclature between and even within divisions?

 

Why are there pipes on the back wall behind (on the right)? If they can't be accomodated within the case, why are they there at all, if the rest of the organ is purporting to be strict Werkprinzip at whatever cost? I have seen Untersatz 32, but never Untersatz 2. I wonder if that's a connection.

 

These are questions, not criticisms; these things must have been thought through before such a large cheque would be approved, and I am keen to understand.

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Dear Colin - feast your eyes. I think the new is a huge improvement.

 

16'? I like Swell Bourdons because they have so much use in making full swell-like noises with few stops. Also you can save on a 4' Flute by using 16 and 8 up an octave. Here, there are more than a few stops - and there's a Swell Flute too. On paper, it smacks slightly - and don't ask me to elaborate, because I don't believe I could - of the sort of thing you'd expect to be a product of the 70s or early 80s, missing only a Sifflote 1 and a 2' pedal reed.

 

Here are the specifics I don't understand -

 

Why have a Positive which is effectively a Cornet decompose with a 2' Principal rather than Flute? (Subscribers to Orgue-l can give chapter and verse on this.)

 

Why have a Cymbelstern and not put its workings in the Swell box, where some dynamic control is made possible?

 

The only other organ I have ever (knowingly) encountered with a tremulant on all three manuals is New College.

 

Why have such a mixture of nomenclature between and even within divisions?

 

Why are there pipes on the back wall behind (on the right)? If they can't be accommodated within the case, why are they there at all, if the rest of the organ is purporting to be strict Werkprinzip at whatever cost? I have seen Untersatz 32, but never Untersatz 2. I wonder if that's a connection.

 

These are questions, not criticisms; these things must have been thought through before such a large cheque would be approved, and I am keen to understand.

 

I have been intrigued with this since playing their opus in Huddersfield the other week although I was not allowed to ever make a squeak on the Trumpet or pedal Reed on pain of death - really. Untersatz (literal translation support )2 must surely be a mistake as a single stop. I dare gamble that when you draw it it pulls TWO stops to make the resultant 32ft - which are already there. Note the Quint.

 

My great concern is that with so much designed on the manuals the pedal department is a basic array of stops, and not giving much degree of independence to underpin the three manual divisions. Therefore I shall imagine that couplers will be used for much of the time above mf, especially if the department is located in the back of the instrument. Manual departments in the foreground and pedal behind make for odd balance/definition and precision for the player as there is so little room for egress. The case does not mirror three manual departments nor pedal. For me it is far too large for the case which I would have tried to include at least the 8ft from the Pedal. Money goes a long way on a lot more high-pitched stops (and giving the illusion of a large console and number of stops - which means absolutely little to me) at the expense of a proper Pedal to Mixture plus Reed(s). Work out the size of pipes at Middle C and thus the metal being used on the manual stops. If there is a thumping big Swell, what is located behind it? A wall or more pipes? The Pedal?

 

I remain intrigued!

 

Best wishes,

N

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On paper, it smacks slightly - and don't ask me to elaborate, because I don't believe I could - of the sort of thing you'd expect to be a product of the 70s or early 80s, missing only a Sifflote 1 and a 2' pedal reed.

 

There's an audio sample from a box organ on this page. Very chiffy.

http://www.skrabl.co.uk/boxorgan.htm

 

Though there are more here, of course:

http://www.skrabl.com/en/glasba.htm

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Also, are those beards around the mouths of the bass pipes in the towers? What are they doing on this style of organ?

Zoom in on the photo and you will see that the front pipes are still wrapped in protective film, also there are no stop knobs in the jambs.

 

Before queueing up to offer criticisms, shall we let them finish the job first !

 

:blink:

 

H

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Before queueing up to offer criticisms, shall we let them finish the job first !

 

:blink:

 

H

 

Whilst this is sound advice, there are a few pertinent points which have been raised by some contributors - and which may be considered to be worth further discussion, even at this stage.

 

I would agree that the case looks a little too large for its situation. In addition, the design has completely ignored the round-headed blank arcades carved into the existing gallery front. The wood also contrasts starkly with the darker hue of the gallery. In addition, if it has been found necessary to place the Pedal Organ (at least) in a separate enclosure to the rear of the main case, perhaps the instrument may be a little too large for the building - even without hearing it first. It does look as if the church authorities are attempting to get a quart out of a pint pot.

 

The specification (at forty speaking stops) is certainly comprehensive - although there seems to be no conscious effort to ape a particular style * - or even nationality - of instrument. What it does appear to have is a lack of focus. There are six separate mutations (including two tierce ranks), a wealth of flutes (although on paper many seem to be of a similar type), the Positive organ (where is this situated, incidentally?) contains a fractional length reed (a lack of stability in tuning may render this stop practically useless for the colder months of the year), but no mixture of any description.

 

Whilst I take David's point, I too would have preferred the Bourdon to be on the G.O. - particularly since there is already a 4ft. flute and a choice of two 2ft. ranks on the Swell Organ (I also think that I would have foregone one of these in favour of a 4ft. Clarion).

 

It will be interesting to hear the type of house style this firm favour for ther voicing. Their instrument in Dorset has received mixed reviews by those who have played and heard it.

 

For the record, I am aware that it can be inadvisable to comment in any way on an instrument which is still under construction. However, as I mentioned, certain points seemed to be questionable, even at this stage.

 

It is easy to sit back and state that if it were my job I would have done things differently. Notwithstanding, I think that I would have elected to design a smaller instrument - and probably one with a more recognisable style. That is not to say that I would have wished to design a copy (on paper) of an 1890 Hill, or even a Cavaillé-Coll. Simply that there appears to be an attempt in this stoplist to cram as many diverse voices from as many styles as possible (including a mixture of languages in one stop in a few cases). However good and well-intentioned the design and voicing (and finishing) are, I think that there is a danger that this instrument could fall into the same trap that the Nicholson organ of Saint Mary's, Warwick fell into - without, it is to be hoped - that additional failing of simply being far too loud for the building in which it stands....

 

 

 

* I would not necessarily regard this as a fault; I merely suggest that this contributes to the overall lack of focus or vision - call it what you will.

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Looking at the spec, another puzzler - here we have Great to Positive (rather than vice versa). Any reason for this, or is it a typo (which seems most likely to me)?

I don't think this is a typo. It depends on what you regard Man I to be. In the context of this organ I suspect I the Great (Hauptwerk) ie principle manual.

 

I agree with pcnd's view of the case. The architecture at organ level is based on circular forms, so straight lines will jar a little. I also wouldn't want to associate the word werkprinzip with this case. I don't see how a true werkprinzip would work, and as we are not blessed with soundboard layout, I'd steer well clear.

 

It's hard to really understand some aspects of the tonal design. A true traversflote 4 and a principal 2 in what I am assuming to be a widescale cornet decompose, assuming by virtue of the inclusion of a Nazard; hmmm, need to see the scalings and precise pipe design before I could be sure about that. Would have been happier to see two 2's on the positive, the principal based one then designed and voiced very brightly to account for the lack of a mixture. Both 16's on the Swell ? Surely more versatile if they are split either way on Swell and Great, don't specifically have a preference, depends on the context, but a Clarion in the Swell would otherwise be good.

 

Not sure about the Pedals. Much depends on the Open Principal 16, not sure, by implication what a Stopped Principal 16 would be. What is it and how has it been designed ? How punchy is the upperwork ? Could Untersatz actually be Hintersatz, which would make a lot more sense.

 

Whatever, it's a tall order to get an organ that looks like this not to sound harsh and dry in a space like that. Let's hope they pull it off.

 

AJS

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I don't think this is a typo. It depends on what you regard Man I to be. In the context of this organ I suspect I the Great (Hauptwerk) ie principle manual.

 

That would make sense - but the spec in the link provided specifically identifies the Positive as being I and the Great as II. It dawned on me when I looked on NPOR, which lists the proposed specification - see http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=E01521. Like I said, could easily be a typo though.

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That would make sense - but the spec in the link provided specifically identifies the Positive as being I and the Great as II. It dawned on me when I looked on NPOR, which lists the proposed specification - see http://www.npor.org.uk/cgi-bin/Rsearch.cgi...ec_index=E01521. Like I said, could easily be a typo though.

 

Hi

 

Interesting - it looks as if the Scrabl website (which is where the stop list came from) has been changed since I entered the organ on NPOR - the couplers are now shown as II-I etc.

 

I'd be grateful, once the organ is in, if someone could confirm/correct the info on NPOR.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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  • 3 months later...

Did anyone go to this organ's opening concert?

 

Looking at the photos on the website, it does appear to be a very large organ for the church. The church seems to be a relatively intimate but airy 4-5 bay church and the nave only seems to take up the first 3 bays, along with the west gallery. This doesn't look like a difficult building for a relatively modest west gallery organ.

 

Notwithstanding the organ spilling out of the main case into cases behind (which is not all that uncommon - but here the cases behind the organ are larger than the main case and so are on show, unfortunately), I cannot but help feel that a more economical scheme could have been devised to give the same sounds and functions for the liturgy and repertoire from a smaller organ with less stops.

 

However, I warmly applaud the church on their commitment to get what is certainly an interesting organ into the darkest recesses of traditional Dorset and hope they are enjoying it. The photos of the Skrabl organ installation in Huddersfield indicate their organs are well constructed and I'm sure this is the case at Lyme. But I cannot help think that this organ (not so far away from Lyme) can do all the Lyme organ can with a lot less stops and it fits very neatly into one (very nicely designed, proportioned and made) case.

 

Maybe in the same situation, I would have thought this would meet the church's needs without breaking into a sweat at all:

 

Great Organ

Double Open Diapason 16 (maybe stopped bass, remainder in prospect)

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Seventeenth 1 3/5

Mixture IV 19.22.26.29

Cremona 8

 

Swell Organ

Horn Diapason 8 (slotted; bass from stopped diapason plus helpers)

Stopped Diapason 8 (maybe with chimneys or pierced stoppers for contrast)

Unda Maris 8 (TC, tuned against Horn Diapason - I like the sea connotation for Lyme...)

Principal 4

Open Flute 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture III 15.19.22

Cornopean 8 (may require some heroic mitring)

Oboe 8

 

Pedal Organ

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Trombone 16

Trumpet 8

 

Or, if you really wanted to make a statement with something different, how about a 16-foot organ in the Dutch Town Church manner of the mid-late 18th Century?

 

Hoofdwerk

Praestant 16

Octaaf 8 (doubled in discant)

Roerfluit 8

Quinte 5 1/3

Superoctaaf 4 (doubled in discant)

Quinte 2 2/3 (doubled in discant)

Mixtur IV sterk (16 foot mixture)

Sexquialter III

Trompet 16 split Basse/Discant

Trompet 8 B/D

 

Bovenwerk

Viole de Gambe 8 (bass from Holpijp)

Holpijp 8

Quintadena 8

Gemshoorn 4

Quintfluit 2 2/3

Nacthoorn 2

Cornet IV (discant)

Dulciaan 8

Vox Humana 8

 

Pedaal

Bourdon 16

Octaaf 8

Superoctaaf 4

Naacthoorn 2

Bazuin 16

Trompet 8

 

ManuaalKoppel

Koppel Bovenwerk

Tremulant

 

:blink:

 

I would be inclined to put the console at the side or behind, allowing the case to be brought forward to the gallery rail, thereby giving plenty of space for the 16' Praestant and the Bovenwerk in its traditional place above. The small Pedaal could live behind the main case, along with the wedge bellows stack (which would be mechanically operated, of course).

Now that would really create a stir! It would also provide a wealth of colour currently unheard in deepest traditional Dorset as well as some fairly remarkable abilities managing the congregation. I wonder what they would make of it?

:rolleyes:

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