A New Project For A Belgian (big) Church

[Pierre Lauwers]

Nothing "serious" yet, this is only a project intended by a

friend for a parish church (indeed a rather big one).

This would be a modern eclectic organ with a german bias:

 

HAUPTWERK

 

Praestant 16'

Quintadena 16'

Principal 8'

Offenflöte 8'

Nachthorn-Gedackt 8'

Dulciana 8' (the slightly stringy model)

Octave 4'

Singend Prinzipal 4'

Hohlflöte 4'

Spitzquinte 2 2/3'

Superoctave 2'

Gemshorn 2' (the northern version, wide scale)

Cornet 3-5r

Mixtur 4-6r

Dulcian 16'

Trompete 8'

Kopfregal 4'

 

RÜCKPOSITIV

 

Zartflöte 8'

Rohrgedackt 8'

Quintadena 8'

Praestant 4'

Spitzflöte 4'

Sifflöte 2'

Nachthorn 1'

Tertian 2r 1 3/5'- 1 1/3'

Zimbel 2-3r

Krummhorn 8'

 

 

SCHWELLWERK

 

Lieblich Gedackt 16'

Geigendprinzipal 8'

Holzflöte 8'

Viola di gamba 8'

Salicional 8'

Vox coelestis 8'

Bourdon 8'

Octave 4'

Schweizerpfeife 4' (also a Gamba after ancient models)

Querflöte 4'

Waldflöte 2'

Sesquialtera 2r 2 2/3'- 1 3/5'

Grosse Cymbel 4-5r

Bombarde 16'

Trompette 8'

Clairon 4'

 

BRUSTWERK

 

Diapason 8'

Rohrflöte 8'

Gemshorn 8'

Principal 4'

Blockflöte 4'

Flageolet 2'

Nachthorn-Terz 1 3/5'

Superquinte 1 1/3'

Scharff 3-4r

Oboe 8'

Clairon 4'

Geigendregal 4'

 

PEDAL

 

Untersatz 32'

Principalbass 16'

Violonbass 16'

Subbass 16'

Gedacktbass 16'

Grossquintbass 10 2/3'

Oktabvass 8'

Bassflöte 8'

Gedackt-Pommer 8'

Choralbass 4'

Flachflöte 2'

Hintersatz 3-7r

Contraposaune 32'

Posaune 16'

Bombarde 16'

Basstrompete 8'

Schalmey 4'

 

 

 

Pierre

[sotto]

Thats very impressive. There seem to be too many manual 8' stops to me with a degree of duplication. I would also like to see a Nazard on either the Positiv or more probably the Brustwerk

[Contrabombarde]

I'd have thought that a second 8ft reed on the Swell as a softer contrast to the trumpet woule be more useful (but pricier) than having two in-tune strings plus a celeste, unless the Brustwerk oboe is enclosed. But regardless, if it gets built you will have one lucky friend!

[ajsphead]

It looks like a tender type specification, not totally refined, but with the overall concept worked through. Consequently it is a little muddled to me. Lots of questions to answer before some reasons may become apparent.

 

Big church - how big and what shape, seating capacity, choir & relationship of organ to choir position. Relationship of organ to other listeners/ congregation.

Height and depth of organ site and proximity to walls, corners, ceiling. Nature of construction and design of the walls, floor and ceiling.

Acoustic, rough duration, and what is amplified or lost.

Primary use of instrument. Secondary uses of instrument in priority order.

 

Some basic fundamental questions here. Doesn't stop it from appearing a bit like a list of stops plucked from a list of stops. Definitely needs focus whatever the answers to the above are.

 

AJS

[Vox Humana]

This brings to mind a large 4-manual German organ I played this summer where there were loads of flute stops and the only strings (8', Celeste, 4') were all on the Schwellwerk. It was a lovely instrument, but by British standards it did feel distinctly devoid of tonal variety at the softer end. The proposed spec looks to have a similar limitation (especially if the Gemshorns are the sort of flutey-principal type stops I have encountered in Germany). I note the Dulciana on the Hw, but if such a stop is needed on this manual I think I would vote for a Salicional. (I'd probably prefer even more to have it on a different manual, but I daresay improvisors might like to have a soft stop available on the Hw). Why three flutes on the Rp? I know one of them is a Quintadena, but even so... I'd like to see a Gamba somewhere on either the Rp or Bw. Just my thoughts.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The church seats about 2,000 people. The building is made of (smooth surface) bricks,

with no paint nor carpetry. The organ is to have the traditional continental west-end position,

above the doors.

The choir is to be located on the tribune, with the organ also.

The reverberation time is about 5 seconds.

The aims are: to play "Repertoire" from Bach to Flor Peeters and Messiaen, and choral music.

 

Pierre

[ajsphead]

The church seats about 2,000 people. The building is made of (smooth surface) bricks,

with no paint nor carpetry. The organ is to have the traditional continental west-end position,

above the doors.

The choir is to be located on the tribune, with the organ also.

The reverberation time is about 5 seconds.

The aims are: to play "Repertoire" from Bach to Flor Peeters and Messiaen, and choral music.

 

Pierre

Thanks Pierre.

 

Roughly what is the height, width and depth available? Disposition of the stops and the position of the soundboards are intrinsically linked.

 

AJS

[Pierre Lauwers]

The "Tribune" is low enough to accomodate an Open 32'. The Width

and depth I do not know the numbers exactly (it is not a project of mine,

though I find it interesting, but have questions), but it is sufficient

for a complete choir to be hosted between the Rückpositiv and the Brustwerk ,

not to mention the (movable) console -the action is to be electric-.

The Great and Swell will be placed on both sides of the Tribune in order not to hide the windows

(an old problem on the continent) behind, while the Pedal will be divided in two parts

against the walls.

 

Pierre

[Jonathan Thorne]

"Dulciana 8' (the slightly stringy model)"

 

Hmm how big will the stop heads be? I don't think one could fit all that on!.. Only joking, it looks like a good array of colours but I hope the pipework will be off decent scale and not the harshness we sometimes find in modern reeds.

[ajsphead]

The "Tribune" is low enough to accomodate an Open 32'. The Width

and depth I do not know the numbers exactly (it is not a project of mine,

though I find it interesting, but have questions), but it is sufficient

for a complete choir to be hosted between the Rückpositiv and the Brustwerk ,

not to mention the (movable) console -the action is to be electric-.

The Great and Swell will be placed on both sides of the Tribune in order not to hide the windows

(an old problem on the continent) behind, while the Pedal will be divided in two parts

against the walls.

 

Pierre

[/quote

 

Well bang goes my first theory; why did our church architects bestow us with West windows. This will take some time to sort out. Do you want public or pm response ?

[Pierre Lauwers]

Rather public; the first aim here is to assess a kind of modern organ design from

several viewpoints (I have the same thread on the french forum and on a german

forum).

This design is sound, no doubt, but is it really a modern one ?

 

Others thoughts ?

 

Pierre

[ajsphead]

Rather public; the first aim here is to assess a kind of modern organ design from

several viewpoints (I have the same thread on the french forum and on a german

forum).

This design is sound, no doubt, but is it really a modern one ?

 

Others thoughts ?

 

Pierre

So what they are after is a large modern organ with a German bias in a large church with a choral tradition and high class music making; West gallery position. Lots of things which don't seem to make a lot of sense to me - none of this is meant to be critical in a critical way, more a matter of commentary.

 

Don't understand the HW.

 

Sort of 2ndary choruses at 4' & 2' but not at 8', and a mix of wide and narrow scale within that.

What's a Nachthorn Gedackt. Surely it has to be one thing or the other.

Cornet 3-5 I've never understood. What's the point of a Cornet 3 from 1-19 ?

Fractional length reeds at 16' and 4'. In that building with that size of chorus???

 

Problem with the relationship between HW and RP. Foundations, reeds and upperwork out of balance if this is a North German, pre 1850 or so, bias concept. I'm taking it as such, because the building is big enough to do so, and the general feel of what's presented above gives me that impression. Could be totally wrong though.

 

Assuming the Zartflote is not of the quinty type, as that would be pointless. A single 4' principal, and small mixture against the big HW. Wouldn't specify it myself.

 

The SW seems to be a mix of narrow scaled fluework at 8' & 4'. The Querflote and Waldflote look totally out of place, although I know that a 2' flute of this type is quite common in more modern German biased instruments. Don't see how it really links the unison ranks and the mixture. Also a flute 2' with a Sesquialtera, and why a sesq under expression, and for that matter, why a sesq and a Tertian on the RP ? duplication?. On a modern organ we should at least get our terminology correct.

Where's the Vox Humana?

 

The BW seems to be the nod to choral accompaniment, so I generally don't understand the upperwork. If it's meant to be a north German BW as well, I dont' think trying to do it in this way will be a happy compromise, and the singers will come off second best I suspect.

Tierce without a Nazard, ultimately how useful will this be.

Is the chorus narrow scale or wide. Blockflote and Nachthorn-Terz suggest wide. Superquint and Scharff suggest narrow. Flageolet tends towards wide, and is the Gemshorn going to be wide or narrow. I'm sorry but it all seems like a bit of a dog's breakfast.

 

The 2 enclosed divisions don't seem to sit comfortably with each other, and if you're accompanying a choir, the wealth of 8's and 4's is nice, but it all begins to sound the same when you put the 2 divisions together in one list.

2 Clairons on the 2 enclosed divisions?

No solo reeds.

 

The PED seems to suffer similarly to very many German biased organs in having a lack of good fundamerntal tone at 32' and 16', particularly at 16'. This is a big building and if it's full with singers, there's no substitute for a good Open Wood, which doesn't have to be fat, boomy, waffly, or even called Open Wood. For a Pedal organ of this size, it seems somewhat underdeveloped.

 

I'm tempted to suggest there is a general lack of foundation work, given Pierre's description of the interior fixtures and decoration. It could all get a bit harsh. On the other hand, a bit of well scaled high pitched work, put high up in the case could give the pleno a real kick.

 

I could carry on further, but I think I've made the point.

 

Have produced a sample spec that deals with these issues as an example of what could be done.

A distinct relationship between HW and RP, and between SW and BW is achieved.

The bias is still clearly German.

It seems much bigger, but is not, owing to the disposition of the Bombarde as a Resonance extended from the Pedal to give the wider scaled foundation for French music.

Each division also has a distinct clear identity.

These are some of the things I think we should be addressing in answering the question 'What is a modern organ', ie, using our accumulated knowledge, and ability to go beyond our forebears not to be linked to a style of the day, and integrate these into one instrument with an identity of its own, but designed to primarily fulfil its brief, not its player, consultant, or organ bulder's whim.

 

In an instrument of this size, there need be few, if any compromises, or for that matter, pointless duplications.

I have taken the lead from the ideas listed originally, so the thought/concept is not entirely free, but hopefully more relevant.

 

It's difficult in written words to communicate the extent of thought necessary to produce the end result, dispostion as suggested by Pierre's description, so the above is an inevitable synopsis.

 

HAUPTWERK

 

Prestant 16

Principal 8

Geigenprincipal 8

Holzflote 8

Gedackt 8

Octav 4

Blockflote 4

Quint 2 2/3

Superoctav 2

Mixtur 19 22 26 29 IV-VI

Cornet 1 8 12 15 17 TG V

Posaune 16

Trompete 8

 

Tremulant

Flues Sub Octave

 

RUCKPOSITIV

 

Prestant 8

Holzgedackt 8

Quintadena 8

Octav 4

Nachthorn 4

Octav 2

Quintflote 1 1/3

Sifflote 1

Tertian 17 19 II

Scharff 26 29 33 36 IV

Dulzian 16

Krummhorn 8

 

Tremulant

 

SCHWELLWERK

 

Spitzflote 16

Rohrflote 8

Gemshorn 8 (generally narrower, and with an audible taper)

Gemshorn Celeste 8

Spitzprincipal 4

Koppelflote 4

Nazard 2 2/3

Principal 2

Wald Flute 2

Tierce 1 3/5

Mixtur 19 22 26 29 IV-V

Zymbel 29 33 36 40 IV

Fagott 16 )

Trompete 8 ) open parallel flat tipped shallots

Klarine 4 )

 

Tremulant

Sub Octave

 

BRUSTWERK

 

Quintadena 16

Diapason 8

Rohrgedackt 8

Viola 8

Vox Coelestis 8

Principal 4

Flauto Traverso 4

Flageolet 2

Kleinmixtur 15 19 22 III

Cor Anglais 16

Oboe 8

Klarinette 8

Vox Humana 8

 

Tremulant

Octave

Sub Octave

Unison Off

 

BOMBARDE (high in North case)

 

Violon 16 *

Prestant 8 *

Flute Harmonique 8

Octave 4 *

Octave 2

Grossmixtur 15 19 22 26 29 V *

Acuta 26 29 31 33 36 V

Bombarde 16 *

Trompette 8 *

Clairon 4 *

Trompeta Real 8 ) not chamade

Clarin Brillante 4 )

 

* extension of Pedal

 

PEDAL

 

Major Bass 32

Untersatz 32

Holzprincipal 16 not large scale, bearded

Principalbass 16

Violonbass 16

Subbass 16

Octavbass 8

Violon 8 wood

Bourdon 8

Superoctav 4

Offenflote 4

Flachflote 2

Hintersatz 15 19 22 26 29 V

Posaune 32

Posaune 16

Trompete 8

Shalmey 4

Bombarde 16

Trompette 8

Clairon 4

 

 

Obviously there is a lot of precise detail missing, so think of this as a taster.

 

AJS

[Ian Ball]

Sweet. Much more interesting, logical and versatile. Well laboured

[Pierre Lauwers]

Interesting comments and suggestions !

 

Some data:

 

-The Nachthorn Gedackt is well stopped, actually rather a french "Cor de nuit";

 

-The Cornet 2-5r is a "progressive" stop, starts with 15-17 at C.

 

Pierre

[SinaL]

Nothing "serious" yet, this is only a project intended by a

friend for a parish church (indeed a rather big one).

This would be a modern eclectic organ with a german bias:

 

HAUPTWERK

 

Praestant 16'

Quintadena 16'

Principal 8'

Offenflöte 8'

Nachthorn-Gedackt 8'

Dulciana 8' (the slightly stringy model)

Octave 4'

Singend Prinzipal 4'

Hohlflöte 4'

Spitzquinte 2 2/3'

Superoctave 2'

Gemshorn 2' (the northern version, wide scale)

Cornet 3-5r

Mixtur 4-6r

Dulcian 16'

Trompete 8'

Kopfregal 4'

 

RÜCKPOSITIV

 

Zartflöte 8'

Rohrgedackt 8'

Quintadena 8'

Praestant 4'

Spitzflöte 4'

Sifflöte 2'

Nachthorn 1'

Tertian 2r 1 3/5'- 1 1/3'

Zimbel 2-3r

Krummhorn 8'

 

 

SCHWELLWERK

 

Lieblich Gedackt 16'

Geigendprinzipal 8'

Holzflöte 8'

Viola di gamba 8'

Salicional 8'

Vox coelestis 8'

Bourdon 8'

Octave 4'

Schweizerpfeife 4' (also a Gamba after ancient models)

Querflöte 4'

Waldflöte 2'

Sesquialtera 2r 2 2/3'- 1 3/5'

Grosse Cymbel 4-5r

Bombarde 16'

Trompette 8'

Clairon 4'

 

BRUSTWERK

 

Diapason 8'

Rohrflöte 8'

Gemshorn 8'

Principal 4'

Blockflöte 4'

Flageolet 2'

Nachthorn-Terz 1 3/5'

Superquinte 1 1/3'

Scharff 3-4r

Oboe 8'

Clairon 4'

Geigendregal 4'

 

PEDAL

 

Untersatz 32'

Principalbass 16'

Violonbass 16'

Subbass 16'

Gedacktbass 16'

Grossquintbass 10 2/3'

Oktabvass 8'

Bassflöte 8'

Gedackt-Pommer 8'

Choralbass 4'

Flachflöte 2'

Hintersatz 3-7r

Contraposaune 32'

Posaune 16'

Bombarde 16'

Basstrompete 8'

Schalmey 4'

 

 

 

Pierre

 

Isnt this the specs of the 1930 klais at Kristus-Koning-Kerk in Antwerp?

 

Are you restoring the organ i.e its not a big new project?

[Pierre Lauwers]

Yes, it is.

 

See here:

 

http://www.orgelbau-klais.com/bilder/pdf/F...rist_Koenig.pdf

 

Mind you, we historians like -or need ?- to experiment sometimes.

Be them french, german or english speaking, a vast majority of people

believed this 1930 organ to be a modern project.

 

This tends to confirm a belief we are some historians to share=: the 2009 fashion

is a remake of the Orgelbewegung, in reverse direction; this time, towards

some "romantic" elements glued upon a neo-baroque design.

 

The Christus-koningkerk organ was the first néo-classique organ in Belgium.

It had a tremendous influence; nearly all belgian builders tried to copy it, among which

the Delmotte firm of Tournai, who rebuilt a vast number of organs in southern Belgium

after that model.

 

This organ was much approved by Flor Peeters, who had the organ of the Mechelen

Lemmens institute replaced with a Klais organ soon afterwards.

About a dozen others followed, mostly in Flanders.

 

This organ is still in pristine condition today. It has an electro-pneumatic action

on Kegellade windchests ("cone chests").

Halas the original console -with five free combinations, a revolution then- has been replaced

with a new one. A very, very sad mistake.

 

About the musical life and the description of room, acoustics, and pipe construction

I told absolutely no lies, though. Some views here:

 

http://www.abdijstraat.com/kristus-koning/klaisorgel.html

 

Note, in particular, the picture with a choir situated between the Rückpositiv and

the "Brustwerk" (actually three "blocks" of pipes between the windows). This may seem

strange for british practice, but so it is, and it works.

 

Pierre

[ajsphead]

Yes, it is.

 

See here:

 

http://www.orgelbau-klais.com/bilder/pdf/F...rist_Koenig.pdf

 

Mind you, we historians like -or need ?- to experiment sometimes.

Be them french, german or english speaking, a vast majority of people

believed this 1930 organ to be a modern project.

 

This tends to confirm a belief we are some historians to share=: the 2009 fashion

is a remake of the Orgelbewegung, in reverse direction; this time, towards

some "romantic" elements glued upon a neo-baroque design.

 

Note, in particular, the picture with a choir situated between the Rückpositiv and

the "Brustwerk" (actually three "blocks" of pipes between the windows). This may seem

strange for british practice, but so it is, and it works.

 

Pierre

 

Well that's fascinating, but I haven't changed my opinion. Para 2 above indeed reinforces it, the design is a muddle. Put aside its historical significance, as that colours judgment, and look at what you are presented with, and the design does not gel in the way that neo baroquised romantic organs don't gel or indeed 'neo romanticised' organs for that matter.

 

I am not surprised that many people thought it was a modern organ design, and I completely agree with your sentiment and rationale. Herein lies my problem with much modern organ design. Your description in the second half of para 2 is very true, and the second half of para 1 suggests how easily people are led into believing that this is the way forward. I firmly believe it is not, and indeed would suggest that my sample is a better illustration of a modern organ with a German bias. Most aspects are historically rooted, there is a little tonal innovation, and a concept, (obviously partially having been done before eg Fisk in Dallas) which all fix it in a philosophical structure designed to meet its brief and that surely must be point 1. Although, the whole solution as presented here I have not yet met, indulging in a little innovation is no bad thing necessarily. Your brief, albeit from a distance gave some clear guidelines, but specified a modern organ. Surely there is a test of a modern organ illustrating a way forward without tacking some elements from one school onto a larger whole from another which is what, as you quite rightly say, is so common now. It is called evolution, but in this type of case, I would argue that we just go around in circles, occasionally squeezing them into ovals. We have been doing it for years, and I'm not quite sure where we are going with it as we still seem to be making our buildings and customers fit our concepts instead of the other way around. I honestly think we are sadly lacking in vision, but we are safe and comfortable and above all, not collectively or openly challenged.

 

AJS

[Pierre Lauwers]

"I would argue that we just go around in circles, occasionally squeezing them into ovals. We have been doing it for years, and I'm not quite sure where we are going with it as we still seem to be making our buildings and customers fit our concepts instead of the other way around. I honestly think we are sadly lacking in vision, but we are safe and comfortable and above all, not collectively or openly challenged."

(Quote)

 

Indeed !

We agree, and this was the point of this thread.

As about the Antwerp's organ itself, it is an excellent organ, to the point

nothing has been changed since its opening. (save the console)

The action is fully reliable and did not need repairs.

The tone is full and rich, and I guess some of the points in the specifications

that seem to be questionnable may be explained by the nomenclature,

which differs somewhat from the today's one; more important still,

the voicers from that time were the same who were at work in the previous,

post-romantic school, so that many a "Cymbel" sounds rather like

an Harmonia aetherea (a kind of Dulciana Mixture, often with a tierce rank)

than a modern Zymbel.

And actually, the Antwerp's organ sounds more "romantic" than it reads!

 

Today, the specifications tend to be established by commities; those commities

are formed with academic people, who impones things wich are fashionable,

"comform to the rules".

The result is often an hotch-potch of a bit of all -a Sesquialtera here for Bach,

an Hautbois there for Franck, etc-, so that such "commity specs" invariably end

up with a "néo-classique-Kompromissorgel".

But such an organ is actually a 1930-like one, as the works of Klais, Sauer( then under Oscar Walcker management), Oscar Walcker, Gonzalez, Holtkamp et al., of this period, demonstrate.

 

And yes: round and round we go.

 

Pierre