Only In America

[AJJ]

Why on earth do we need to have unrecognisable stop names on an organ in the UK, especially somewhere as down to earth as Huddersfield? I thought Konicasta Flavta was one of the professionals in "Strictly Come Dancing". Perhaps it is just a case of my Pozavna is louder than yours?

JC

 

Mind you - the content of the 2nd manual looks nice - where have all the Brustwerks gone?

 

Manual II

Bordon 8

Gemshorn 8

Celeste gamba 8

Konicasta flavta 4

Flageolet 2

Krumhorn 8

Tremulant

 

A

[Alistair McEwan]

Mind you - the content of the 2nd manual looks nice - where have all the Brustwerks gone?

 

Manual II

Bordon 8

Gemshorn 8

Celeste gamba 8

Konicasta flavta 4

Flageolet 2

Krumhorn 8

Tremulant

 

A

 

Looks nice and sounds delightful. A fine instrument IMHO !!

 

A

[David Coram]

Looks nice and sounds delightful. A fine instrument IMHO !!

 

A

 

And, much as I'd love to be highly sceptical and peer down my nose at this consultant's apparent new 'pet organbuilder', who cares - have you seen the outreach these guys are doing? 1800 children in 45 choirs? Amazing!

 

I feel thoroughly ashamed that, despite having spent the last fourteen months getting kids singing, I had not encountered mention of this absolutely amazing project. It's taken me a year of blood, sweat and tears to get 20 kids together. I am so full of admiration I can hardly begin to express it. Never mind America! There is hope for our own culture yet.

[handsoff]

Why on earth do we need to have unrecognisable stop names on an organ in the UK, especially somewhere as down to earth as Huddersfield? I thought Konicasta Flavta was one of the professionals in "Strictly Come Dancing". Perhaps it is just a case of my Pozavna is louder than yours?

JC

 

Vox Humana highlighted this in another thread. The stop numbered 38 did make me chuckle although it clearly is a typo. I hope...

 

P

[MusingMuso]

And, much as I'd love to be highly sceptical and peer down my nose at this consultant's apparent new 'pet organbuilder', who cares - have you seen the outreach these guys are doing? 1800 children in 45 choirs? Amazing!

 

I feel thoroughly ashamed that, despite having spent the last fourteen months getting kids singing, I had not encountered mention of this absolutely amazing project. It's taken me a year of blood, sweat and tears to get 20 kids together. I am so full of admiration I can hardly begin to express it. Never mind America! There is hope for our own culture yet.

 

=========================

 

 

 

David will know, I trust, that singing was once an essential part of music-education in schools, and school-choirs were often forces to be reckoned with in the musical world. One thinks of the Wandsworth Boy's Choir, so beloved of Banjamin Britten, and they were by no means unique. The school choir in which I sang was exceptionally good, and of course, everyone could read and write properly. I honestly do not know where it all went wrong, but I suspect that the abandonment of school choirs, may well have been a deliberate attack against perceived 'elitism.'

 

Now everyone wants to win X-factor and become a pop-star. (I'm not knocking X-factor, because the young man who is almost certain to win this year, has an excellent voice, perfect tuning and a flawless delivery).

 

Unfortunately, with X-factor, there can only be one winner; suggesting that a new type of elitism has replaced the old, with 99.999% of entrants being losers. At least with school-choirs, everyone is a winner, and when they get old and end up in a nursing-home, they'll have something to sing, rather than body-popping and waving their arms around as the nurses rush for the medication trolley.

 

Being a considerable force in education, the RC church is well placed to capitalise on something of a captive pool of talent, and of course, the tradition of religion is stronger in RC schools than it is in most other Christian denominational schools.

 

So really, the outreach was already there in the form of education. With appropriate funding and the right staff appoinments, that can be utilised readily, if not easily, and the key to success is in getting people on-board and working towards 'corporate' success. The intitial sucess will be followed by greater success and a self-generating momentum, which is how outstanding traditions are created.

 

As the late Robert Andrews FRCO once said to me, "It took years to build a good choir, and in half-an-hour, the incumbent 'rectum' destroyed it."

 

Outside that church-school tradition, it has to be very much more difficult to get the ball rolling, and as kids to-day are taught all sorts of dubious things in music, (as well as good things), anything which isn't instantly popular, and carries with it the promise of megastardom, is dismissed as "boring" or "old fashioned." So much for the anti-elitism brigade, who have done more harm than good, and possibly failed two generations and relegated them to the creative dustbin of life.

 

I always think it amusing, that the brass band movement, (which started as the working-class answer to upper-class 'elitism'), was so successful, it actually eclipsed the quality of many a professional orchestra; thus creating a sort of inverted snobbery and a counter 'elitism' to rival anything which had preceeded it. It's a good job surgeons are the elite of the medical profession. I wouldn't fancy my barber as the alternative; nice enough chap though he may be.

 

I'm afraid I cannot ignore the comment, "Never mind America," even if it was written without malice

 

If there was one thing which struck me about America, it was the sheer energy of the country, and the way that people are not trampled down, but actually encouraged to participate and succeed. The Americans tend to be great team players, which is why they still have community music, youth bands of real quality, some extremely good church-choirs and choral foundations, as well as some of the world's finest performers. Education also means something to Americans, as it once did to people in this country. That doesn't mean that America doesn't have its' bums and drop-outs; its' rebels and its' cynics. Of course it has, but not to quite the same extent as in Britain to-day, where many seem to have abandoned hope and have nothing to do.

 

MM

[MusingMuso]

Why on earth do we need to have unrecognisable stop names on an organ in the UK, especially somewhere as down to earth as Huddersfield? I thought Konicasta Flavta was one of the professionals in "Strictly Come Dancing". Perhaps it is just a case of my Pozavna is louder than yours?

JC

 

 

============================

 

 

Surely, even a Polish plumber could work out 'Konicasta Flavta"....a Conical Flute. Just treat the 'v' as a 'u', and even you could pronounce Posauna!

 

Nothing wrong with names that aren't French or German, and it's time we all learned a Slavic language....there's a lot of them over here you know.

 

MM

[john carter]

============================

 

 

Surely, even a Polish plumber could work out 'Konicasta Flavta"....a Conical Flute. Just treat the 'v' as a 'u', and even you could pronounce Posauna!

 

Nothing wrong with names that aren't French or German, and it's time we all learned a Slavic language....there's a lot of them over here you know.

 

MM

I know, I know! I'm not a Polish plumber, but I am capable of working it out. It doesn't stop me thinking it is pretentious.

 

Even though I happen to use the Korean language sometimes doesn't mean I would ever expect a car or TV from that country to have controls labelled in Korean script.

 

Now then, an organ with Korean stop names, that would be a challenge for you...

 

존카터

[MusingMuso]

I know, I know! I'm not a Polish plumber, but I am capable of working it out. It doesn't stop me thinking it is pretentious.

 

Even though I happen to use the Korean language sometimes doesn't mean I would ever expect a car or TV from that country to have controls labelled in Korean script.

 

Now then, an organ with Korean stop names, that would be a challenge for you...

 

존카터

 

 

=============================

 

 

I can't think that a Slovenian organ with Slovenian stop-names is pretentious; not as compared with that Wm Hill organ with the Latin stop names.

 

I wonder if Brindley & Foster used English stop names in Russia? What about organs from the UK in India?

 

I think that if I enjoyed a Slovenian organ or a Czech one....(Oops! better not go there! ) .... I think I would quite enjoy getting to grips..(Oh dear! )...with the nomenclature of the country.

 

I think I'd better say no more....you get my drift.

 

MM

[David Coram]

Well, we know that Bernard Aubertin, for one, follows largely the conventions of the country he is working in, if his own are not likely to be readily recognised - hence the instrument currently in the works with its controls in native-friendly format.

 

I hate to be grossly off topic, but I have just had the most thrilling 5 hours on a Degens and Rippin accompanying 700-odd singers (including the Bourmemouth Symphony Chorus). What a sound! Now that's how to do neo classical...

[Tubular_pneumatic]

They're not likely to get much in the way of donations or enthusiasm adopting that attitude then are they?

 

Just remember the head of the ACCHOS isn't from America! (C:

 

- Nathan

[Guest drd]

I hate to be grossly off topic, but I have just had the most thrilling 5 hours on a Degens and Rippin accompanying 700-odd singers (including the Bourmemouth Symphony Chorus). What a sound! Now that's how to do neo classical...

 

Boscombe...?

[pcnd5584]

Boscombe...?

 

I would be surprised if it was. I played this instrument once for a wedding and thought it was utterly dreadful. Give me the former 'Hill' organ any day.

 

I doubt that Saint John's Church, Boscombe would accommodate 700 people these days. The west end has been converted into something resembling a Swedish sauna, with acres of pine panelling....

[Vox Humana]

Googling 10 December + Bournemouth Symphony Chorus does indeed yield an event at St John's.

[pcnd5584]

Googling 10 December + Bournemouth Symphony Chorus does indeed yield an event at St John's.

 

Now this is surprising. Ah well, wrong again....

 

I am amazed that David likes this organ, though.

[SRA88]

And how DREADFUL this sounded on Radio 4 last Sunday. Turning on half way through the programme (Morning Worship with the Choral Soc - splendid Messiah singing) I didn't know where it was from and, from the sound, assumed it was a small parish church with a Victorian organ that had had a high-pitched, narrow scaled Cymbal crammed into the Swell, and a Swell Fagot made available on the Pedal. Never having heard St Paul's Hall before (but having heard plenty of hype), it was disappointing. Excellent playing from Darius Battiwalla however

 

Meanwhile, back in the US of A...

 

I thoroughly agree with your observation. I heard the same broadcast in my car whilst driving to church for Mass that morning; whilst I recognised the voice of John Sentamu, the sound and acoustics were most definitely not those of York Minster, and I even wondered at that point if it was the Archbishop of York I was indeed listening to. My lady-friend has just taken the keyboard section of the ARCO at St. Paul's hall; knowing that she was going to be doing it there, when I heard said broadcast I was somewhat horrified. Others have told me very positive things about the instrument, however.

[David Coram]

I would be surprised if it was. I played this instrument once for a wedding and thought it was utterly dreadful. Give me the former 'Hill' organ any day.

 

I doubt that Saint John's Church, Boscombe would accommodate 700 people these days. The west end has been converted into something resembling a Swedish sauna, with acres of pine panelling....

 

It was St John's, and it was packed to standing. The Swedish sauna is brilliant because a) it makes possible a West gallery, b ) it makes the place useable by the community without having to heat and carpet the place to death, and c) you can have decent interval drinks without having to cross the road to a distant hall.

 

I thought it a superb instrument of its type. It seemed to me that it wanted to be approached on the basis that Great and Swell would accompany a choir, and you had to add the Bombarde (with its fearsome V rank Ripieno) for hymns. I know what you're going to say and, no, it's a long way from my personal taste and I expect the Hill was much better.

 

But isn't overcoming perceived limitations what it's all about? If you put me in front of an organ, give me a cheque and command me to try and make music, and I find (as here, and on yours) that I can do so with ease, then I have a much more pleasant experience than the occasions when I can't.

[Vox Humana]

Degens and Rippin and a Swedish sauna. There is a heaven after all!

[pcnd5584]

It was St John's, and it was packed to standing. The Swedish sauna is brilliant because a) it makes possible a West gallery, b ) it makes the place useable by the community without having to heat and carpet the place to death, and c) you can have decent interval drinks without having to cross the road to a distant hall.

 

Good to read this - but I doulbt that the local Fire Officer would be....

 

I thought it a superb instrument of its type. It seemed to me that it wanted to be approached on the basis that Great and Swell would accompany a choir, and you had to add the Bombarde (with its fearsome V rank Ripieno) for hymns. I know what you're going to say and, no, it's a long way from my personal taste and I expect the Hill was much better.

 

OK, I am happy for you - so I will not say it but, yes, I also suspect that the former Hill organ was much better. The present Bombarde section is fierce (although I have not heard the Fanfare Trumpet) - most of it is extension and the Quint Zimbel (33-36-40) has only one octave of pipes - and simply repeats every octave. It is is not at all the same as my wonderful Cymbal (29-33-36) on the Positive Organ at the Minster. Given that the Diapason 'chorus' consists of one rank, from which is derived the unison, the octave and the 2ft. (John Compton was generally much more careful than this), the Posaune and Fanfare Trumpet are both extended ranks and the cheat with the Zimbel, I must admit that I found this division less useful. However, I can imagine that, with seven hundred people present, it was helpful in leading the singing. Incidentally, half of the Choir Organ is also derived from one extended rank - a Dulciana. Then there is the Pedal Organ: again, mostly extended with some borrowings. The G.O. has lost its 16ft. Double Diapason and instead possesses a Quintadena - except that the lowest twelve notes are apparently a 5 1/3ft., presumably quinted with either another 8ft. rank, or itself.

 

 

But isn't overcoming perceived limitations what it's all about? If you put me in front of an organ, give me a cheque and command me to try and make music, and I find (as here, and on yours *) that I can do so with ease, then I have a much more pleasant experience than the occasions when I can't.

As would I - generally. But this is one organ I have been happy to play only once (so listen very carefully....)

 

 

* Incidentally (and I realise that this is a subjective and possibly biased view), but I regard the Minster organ as having far more musicality and integrity that this instrument. Aside from the fact that there is no extension on the Positive, G.O. or Swell whatsoever (and only a limited amount on the Pedal Organ), the voicing is either in a completely different style - or is of a uniformly much higher quality. Personally, I subscribe to the latter view.

[MusingMuso]

Only in New York!

 

I shouldn't have been surprised! After all, I've been there and had my eyebrows raised a few times, but I didn't expect to be shocked, bemused and delighted by a piece of organ music on the internet.

 

If anyone had suggested that the music of the late Michael Jackson could become the basis for a service postlude, I would have laughed 'til my wig caught fire, but...well....only in New York!

 

All French Toccata enthusiasts will enjoy this; though perhaps the use of a virtual organ is a little out of place on the Mander Organ Discussion Board, except that it is so out of the ordinary, I thought it worthy of mention; not least for the reaction of the worshippers at the end. As Michael Barone points out on this "pipedreams" broadcast, they received the improvisation on "Beat it" and "ABC" with enthusiasm, having talked all the way through it!

 

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/listings/2009/0952/

 

To equal surprise and delight, I was pleased to find that the art of organ-composition lives on in America, from the pen of a composer of whom I have never previously heard. I think I recognise the still lingering influence of Hindemith from his many years of teaching composition at Yale University, but the fact that the composer is engaged on 24 Preludes & Fugues for organ, is quite significant, and more importantly, they can be downloaded on the web.

Therefore, have a listen to the Prelude and Fugue in B, by Henry Martin, in the same "pipedreams" programme.

 

MM

[giwro]

Only in New York!

 

To equal surprise and delight, I was pleased to find that the art of organ-composition lives on in America, from the pen of a composer of whom I have never previously heard. I think I recognise the still lingering influence of Hindemith from his many years of teaching composition at Yale University, but the fact that the composer is engaged on 24 Preludes & Fugues for organ, is quite significant, and more importantly, they can be downloaded on the web.

Therefore, have a listen to the Prelude and Fugue in B, by Henry Martin, in the same "pipedreams" programme.

 

MM

 

 

Thanks for pointing this out, MM - Henry Martin is an amazingly gifted composer (and he's already successfully completed 24 P+F for the piano a number of years ago, so he's well qualified for the task!)

Since you mention his organ works, I'll let you know you can hear recordings of the first 4 P+F HERE as well as order scores if you are so inclined.

I normally refrain from such self-promotion (I'm Henry's publisher for the P+F) since when I first started on this board I made a similar casual mention and was rather unkindly taken to task for it.

 

Henry has also just recently completed #5 and #6, which are not published yet, but you can hear recordings HERE and HERE.

 

Although Henry is not an organist, he's a fabulous pianist, and has carefully studied the potential of the instrument and consulted with some very fine organists to help make the music more idiomatic.

Interestingly enough, he's left registration to the performer, and that can mean some very widely divergent sounds (and unique insights from the various people who have played the music!).

 

I hope you enjoy the music - Henry is slowly gaining recognition as an organ composer (the first 2 P+F were premiered at the 2008 American Guild of Organists convention)

 

Best to all,

 

- G

[MusingMuso]

Thanks for pointing this out, MM - Henry Martin is an amazingly gifted composer (and he's already successfully completed 24 P+F for the piano a number of years ago, so he's well qualified for the task!)

Since you mention his organ works, I'll let you know you can hear recordings of the first 4 P+F HERE as well as order scores if you are so inclined.

I normally refrain from such self-promotion (I'm Henry's publisher for the P+F) since when I first started on this board I made a similar casual mention and was rather unkindly taken to task for it.

 

Henry has also just recently completed #5 and #6, which are not published yet, but you can hear recordings HERE and HERE.

 

Although Henry is not an organist, he's a fabulous pianist, and has carefully studied the potential of the instrument and consulted with some very fine organists to help make the music more idiomatic.

Interestingly enough, he's left registration to the performer, and that can mean some very widely divergent sounds (and unique insights from the various people who have played the music!).

 

I hope you enjoy the music - Henry is slowly gaining recognition as an organ composer (the first 2 P+F were premiered at the 2008 American Guild of Organists convention)

 

Best to all,

 

- G

 

 

==========================

 

 

I am constantly impressed by the modesty of our friend "Giwro," who has been remarkably generous to the organ community and who makes publication of new music possible. This, at a time when publishers tend not to publish organ-music, and when music-shops often do not stock it.

 

If I could post a link to "loud applause" in mp3 format, I would do so!

 

As with any country at any one time, America churns out rubbish at a fair rate of knots, (from action films to Burger chains), but at the other end of the scale, there is real quality, real attention to detail and often real genius. That is reflected in some of the music, some of the organs and some of the performers. To be absolutely honest, I despair of the attitude that only Europe can deliver, when that tends to be historic rather than contemporary; barring a few notable exceptions.

Even Minnesota Public Radio's "pipedreams" is generoulsy sent around the world for free, at a time when broadcasters in Europe have largely abandoned the organ, and without it, I know that there is much of which I would be unaware. American organists often look across the pond and admire Europe, but as Europeans, it seems odd that we should need to look to America to tell us about Europe. As Europeans, we should do the same, and glance across to what it going on in the American organ scene.

 

At the same time, perhaps we should also say, "Thank you."

 

MM