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What can we do?


Philip

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This is no doubt a discussion which has been had many times on here, but anyway...

 

I've just come back from Nottingham's Royal Concert Hall where I've been to the finale of the classical concert series there (which I would heartily recommend). It was the Halle with Cristian Mandeal at the helm - after pleasant stuff from Respighi and Delius, they then blew the roof off the hall with a thrilling rendition of Bolero (must be heard to live to do it justice) and then after the interval Jonathan Scott joined in for the simply marvellous Saint-Saens 3, a cracking way to finish the season. The Royal Concert Hall's only flaw is that it doesn't have a pipe organ, so they had to plug a digital in - a big four-manual job (no idea who's) which seemed to have plenty of bass but not a lot up top. My own (church) digital instrument is rather better thank you.

 

After a couple of rounds of applause Scott then swang back over the organ stool and gave us a rendition of 'the Widor'. This seemed to go down really well, although the instrument as I said didn't do it justice at all. They should hear it on a proper organ. I have to say I enjoy playing it as a piece, but can't get excited about hearing it. Apparently others can though so I suppose that's something.

 

About 30 seconds out of the auditorium door after we'd had further applause, I heard a woman behind me say 'that's one of the few pieces of organ music I can stand' or words to that effect. Urgh. Yes, its alright but surely there is far better stuff out there? Have people really investigated to see what there is out there for them to hear? How do we bring this kind of thing to them?

 

Obviously there is no easy answer. Should we just give up when people pigeon-hole organ music like this?

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Have people really investigated to see what there is out there for them to hear? How do we bring this kind of thing to them?

 

Obviously there is no easy answer. Should we just give up when people pigeon-hole organ music like this?

 

 

===========================

 

 

You could give up of course, but before you do, you could take a trip to Hungary and play to a predominantly Jewish audience in a synagogue. :)

 

 

MM

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The Royal Concert Hall's only flaw is that it doesn't have a pipe organ, so they had to plug a digital in - a big four-manual job (no idea who's) which seemed to have plenty of bass but not a lot up top. My own (church) digital instrument is rather better thank you.

 

Hi

 

For the record, I think the organ is an early Copeman-Hart - I've got some details of it somewhere. I don't know if there have been any changes since it was installed.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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===========================

 

 

You could give up of course, but before you do, you could take a trip to Hungary and play to a predominantly Jewish audience in a synagogue. :blink:

 

 

MM

 

Wow, what a great way to start a Sunday morning! :)

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Guest Patrick Coleman
===========================

 

 

You could give up of course, but before you do, you could take a trip to Hungary and play to a predominantly Jewish audience in a synagogue. :)

 

 

MM

 

What a pick-me-up after such a tiring morning!

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I heard a woman behind me say 'that's one of the few pieces of organ music I can stand' or words to that effect. ...Have people really investigated to see what there is out there for them to hear? How do we bring this kind of thing to them?

I suspect MM's video gives us part of the answer. Unfortunately, there will be some of our number who will be as sniffy about that performance as they are about Carlo Curley or Cameron Carpenter. Who could captivate an audience better than George Thalben-Ball or hold people's attention more than Pierre Cochereau? It was people like that who inspired me as a boy.

 

The trouble is that so many organ recitals now are principally for the pleasure of the performer and his/her friends, not the audience. At one I went to last summer, I sat in the choir stalls as the best position to see and hear, only to be approached by the (well known) organist who told me curtly that he hoped I wasn't going to rustle any papers or shuffle about, because he was recording his recital and the microphone was nearby. What a welcome!

 

If we are going to bring an appreciation of the organ to the general public, we also have to give them something in "bite-size chunks". How many I-player tracks last more than three minutes? Fifteen minutes of Bach on a unchanging registration can be difficult to appreciate, even for afficionados. Every public recital needs to be like an art gallery, where you can find little gems that trigger your imagination among familiar and comfortable works. And it needs a bit of star quality from the performers. Britain's Got Talent... but you would be hard pushed to spot it in our corner of the musical scene.

JC

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Wow, what a great way to start a Sunday morning! :)

 

 

=========================

 

Indeed, and although this was probably an exceptional number even by Hungarian standards, (8,000 in the audience and still an acoustic!), Xavier Varnus is actually something of a media-celebrity in Hungary, and not just as an organist.

 

I've mentioned before the French influence on Hungarian organs thanks to Josef Angster who worked with Cavaille-Coll, so the bigger instruments tend to be quite punchy; complete with chamades.

 

It's a different world over there I suspect, where intelligent listening is still valued. :blink:

 

MM

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I suspect MM's video gives us part of the answer. Unfortunately, there will be some of our number who will be as sniffy about that performance as they are about Carlo Curley or Cameron Carpenter. Who could captivate an audience better than George Thalben-Ball or hold people's attention more than Pierre Cochereau? It was people like that who inspired me as a boy.

 

The trouble is that so many organ recitals now are principally for the pleasure of the performer and his/her friends, not the audience.

 

==============================

 

 

My principal inspiration was Francis Jackson, and I'm sure everyone is heartily weary of my accounts of getting the pedal-bike out at the age of 13 and riding 43 miles each way to York, just to hear "Francis" play after Evensong.

 

He had that amazing gift of communication, and always connected with his audiences.

 

The Xavier Varnus performance is fairly electrifying; especially when the chamades are coupled to the pedals to highlight the passacaglia theme!

 

For me, the problem with the more academic approach will always be that of intellect triumphing over musical passion and expression, which people like Curley, Thalben-Ball and Fox never allow or allowed.

 

Although there is a distinctly "expressionist style" of performing, (with origins in Berlin), ALL music must express more than just the historically-informed intentions of the composer. Not only that, but certain instruments simply sound wrong when played in a manner for which they were never intended.

 

I recall Paul Derrett questioning my choice of the Reubke Sonata for a recital at Halifax a couple of years ago, but it is a work which I love and into which I pour great expression. I put in accelerandi and rits where they are not indicated, and use every means of light and shade possible to tell this great story as a tone-poem. I always recall Roger Fisher's performance at Chester, (here we go again!), when the Reubke slayed an entire audience and left everyone cowering in fear at the end. It was organ-playing at its most powerful and compelling, and it has always been a high-point in my musical appreciation, and one which has never been bettered since.

 

That is romantic expressionism at work, and it also happens to be historically informed at the same time.

 

Even where an organ is 300 years old, "expressionism" has a place, but always within the confines of "what was possible."

 

In my view, unchanging registrations in lengthy Bach works are just an insult to the musical passion of the man, and while everyone can argue this or that nuance of style-performance, the reality is that Bach was never conventional and liked to play with the registers for dramatic purpose.

 

I would therefore rather hear a gutsy, passionate performance in almost any style of playing, to a whole Reubke destroyed by mechanical rhythm, or Bach reduced to the grim-regularity of a player-roll mechanism.

 

When I think of Francis Jackson in his heyday, I think first of a musician, a communicator and a passionate performer. Only then do I reflect on the sheer virtuosity and scholarship behind the man, and that is surely what lies behind a great musician, but only as a secure foundation for high artistry.

 

I will now put my soap-box away.

 

MM

 

PS: Check out Xaver Varnus playing a new Organ Concerto at Budapest, "Equinox" by Jean Michel-Jarre, the "Egmont" Overture as a transcription and an incredibly fast but very neat "Fugue in G (the little)" by Bach.

 

It's easy to see why and how he gets big audiences.

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I suspect MM's video gives us part of the answer. Unfortunately, there will be some of our number who will be as sniffy about that performance as they are about Carlo Curley or Cameron Carpenter. Who could captivate an audience better than George Thalben-Ball or hold people's attention more than Pierre Cochereau? It was people like that who inspired me as a boy.

 

The trouble is that so many organ recitals now are principally for the pleasure of the performer and his/her friends, not the audience. At one I went to last summer, I sat in the choir stalls as the best position to see and hear, only to be approached by the (well known) organist who told me curtly that he hoped I wasn't going to rustle any papers or shuffle about, because he was recording his recital and the microphone was nearby. What a welcome!

 

If we are going to bring an appreciation of the organ to the general public, we also have to give them something in "bite-size chunks". How many I-player tracks last more than three minutes? Fifteen minutes of Bach on a unchanging registration can be difficult to appreciate, even for afficionados. Every public recital needs to be like an art gallery, where you can find little gems that trigger your imagination among familiar and comfortable works. And it needs a bit of star quality from the performers. Britain's Got Talent... but you would be hard pushed to spot it in our corner of the musical scene.

JC

 

On the other hand, John, how many Wagner operas last less than four hours? Can you get a seat for a Wagner opera? Only if you are very quick off the mark when bookings open. And the Halle's Mahler 8 last month sold out pretty quickly, and that's a long haul, too.

 

It seems to me that the well-attended recitals are the ones where the pieces played are relatively few and substantial and are put over with all the formality of the concert hall. It's the recitals with 12 works in a 45-minute programme that are attended only by the recitalist's friends.

 

Continental organists do not find it necessary to pander to goldfish-like attention spans to get four-figure audiences. A Vierne symphony or half an hour of Reger is what does the trick over there. That said, I am damned if I know what would do the trick over here. The problem is that a generation or more of children have not been introduced to classical music (in the broadest sense of the term), whilst the wholesale rejection of Christianity means that the churchiness of the organ is an additional barrier in most peoples' eyes.

 

By the way, is it really our goal to bring an appreciation of the organ to the general public? Or is it the organ repertoire we are trying to promote? It's really rather bizarre to promote the instrument rather than the works played on it: this is what makes people think we are such a queer lot, more interested in mechanism than in music.

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==============================

 

 

In my view, unchanging registrations in lengthy Bach works are just an insult to the musical passion of the man, and while everyone can argue this or that nuance of style-performance, the reality is that Bach was never conventional and liked to play with the registers for dramatic purpose.

 

I would therefore rather hear a gutsy, passionate performance in almost any style of playing, to a whole Reubke destroyed by mechanical rhythm, or Bach reduced to the grim-regularity of a player-roll mechanism.

 

 

Well said Sir!! Couldn't agree more.

 

Regards to all

 

John

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==============================

 

 

"In my view, unchanging registrations in lengthy Bach works are just an insult to the musical passion of the man, and while everyone can argue this or that nuance of style-performance, the reality is that Bach was never conventional and liked to play with the registers for dramatic purpose.

 

I would therefore rather hear a gutsy, passionate performance in almost any style of playing, to a whole Reubke destroyed by mechanical rhythm, or Bach reduced to the grim-regularity of a player-roll mechanism."

 

 

Well said Sir!! Couldn't agree more.

 

Regards to all

 

John

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On the other hand, John, how many Wagner operas last less than four hours? Can you get a seat for a Wagner opera? Only if you are very quick off the mark when bookings open. And the Halle's Mahler 8 last month sold out pretty quickly, and that's a long haul, too.

 

And how big an audience are we talking about - and how many performances of those works are there in a year? The Wagner fans are also fans of particular artistes and long to see the stars perform, just as I was determined never to miss a rare opportunity to hear Dupré or Germani. My point, perhaps not clearly enough made, is that we simply don't have organists with star quality any more. For what ever reason, it is a branch of music that has become almost entirely introspective.

 

My family live in your area, but while I have no difficulty persuading them to join me to hear brass bands, orchestras, string quartets or choral music, I have to drag them kicking and screaming to organ recitals - and when I manage to do so, I understand why. With rare and honourable exceptions they are deadly dull.

 

If you aren't selling the goods in the shop, you must change your offer or give up. In my opinion, the chance of a whole Vierne Symphony inspiring any but those in the business is close to zero. Maybe the answer isn't shorter works, but just one or two organ works within an orchestral concert. I do not know, but I gave my honest answer to the question at the top of the thread.

 

As for whether we are trying to promote the instrument or the repertoire - well pick me up on my choice of words if you must. I do not think it makes a ha'p'orth of difference. Perhaps Widor 5 on the piano accordion would have the crowds flocking in!

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Have people ever flocked to organ recitals ? I know the answer is yes, but as a proportion of the total number of recitals in a given timespan, it would have been a lesser rather than greater proportion. I suggest we look at why they flocked when they did. I doubt it had much to do with the use of a bleating vox humana.

 

The circumstances, within the context of society at the time, both musical and general point one in a certain direction. Access and cultural norms are relevant here. Also look where possible at the type of people who attended, and where the concert was. Marketing is still marketing, although I suspect we have been exposed to so much marketing that we grow tired of it, so the best type is sometimes a contrary or inverted type.

 

Some scenarios of well attended events might be WT Best playing XXX Town Hall organ on a Saturday afternoon with a programme of transcriptions, authored works and some lighter pieces by Bach, Mendelssohn or one of the oft forgotten contemporary composers.

 

Later we might see a concert of orchestral transcriptions and popular pieces in the Odeon Leicester Square MM would be able to point to a suitable performer as a Matinee performance.

 

More recently we might have Carlo Curley in XXX town hall or St Prominent's parish church giving a typical programme the vein of which I suspect most of us are familiar.

 

I accept that not every well attended recital comes into these categories, and none of it would really suit me, but look at what is being played, where, and by whom, in the context of the society of its day, and you may begin to form a picture of what can work. Also we have to look at community and tradition amongst other things. Closeness of the former in whatever context is relevant, and the existence of the latter in a form which promotes interest will have a further bearing on attendance.

 

Beyond this one can start to draw parallels with choral concerts, again often not that well attended once you remove the groupies and rellys.

 

We have to determine what a realistic baseline line is before deciding whether we are succeeding or not.

 

AJS

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Have people ever flocked to organ recitals ?

 

They do in France. I was in Chartres on August 15th some years ago - what a day! High Mass iin the Cathedral at 11 a.m. - a rather splendid lunch and then the Psalmody of Vespers in the church of St. Peter - followed by a long Procession, in the August heat, to the Cathedral arriving to a full Cathedral to sing the Magnificat, in Latin, preceeded by an amazing organ fanfare and accompanied by the most wonderful playing. Then a break for half an hour followed by an organ recital by Patrick Delabre (?) - the titulaire. The Cathedral was full and, at the end there was real applause and one felt a genuine affection from the audience to their recitalist. The music he played wasn't lollipops, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

What can we do? - no idea - but I sometimes think we ought to be less stuffy about it!!

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They do in France. I was in Chartres on August 15th some years ago - what a day! High Mass iin the Cathedral at 11 a.m. - a rather splendid lunch and then the Psalmody of Vespers in the church of St. Peter - followed by a long Procession, in the August heat, to the Cathedral arriving to a full Cathedral to sing the Magnificat, in Latin, preceeded by an amazing organ fanfare and accompanied by the most wonderful playing. Then a break for half an hour followed by an organ recital by Patrick Delabre (?) - the titulaire. The Cathedral was full and, at the end there was real applause and one felt a genuine affection from the audience to their recitalist. The music he played wasn't lollipops, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

What can we do? - no idea - but I sometimes think we ought to be less stuffy about it!!

 

And they do in Germany, as anyone who was on the IAO Congress in Cologne will know. The suggestion we should be in the cathedral an hour before the recital started in order to be sure of a seat sounded far-fetched, but was pretty accurate.

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Probably a bit negative but I don't think you'll ever convert British audiences. In France and Germany, as mentioned above, the audiences are there, they are appreciative of good music. I recall my first visit to Germany and being totally taken aback at St Cosmae, Stade, when a church full of people remained totally silent when a Lubeck Praeludium was played before a service and obviously appreciated it. More recent visits confirm that this is still the norm. As one who couldn't sit through five minutes of Wagner, let alone four hours I must be a continental.

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And they do in Germany, as anyone who was on the IAO Congress in Cologne will know. The suggestion we should be in the cathedral an hour before the recital started in order to be sure of a seat sounded far-fetched, but was pretty accurate.

 

Exactly what I found. My (long suffering) wife and I did, indeed, arrive at least an hour early to find the cathedral already quite full. By the time the recital was due to start, people were sitting in the aisles either on camper chairs they had brought or even on the floor!

 

Why does this not happen here? Perhaps it is just a matter of a different culture - or a lack of it! 'Dumbing down'?

 

What can we do about it? Education?

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Exactly what I found. My (long suffering) wife and I did, indeed, arrive at least an hour early to find the cathedral already quite full. By the time the recital was due to start, people were sitting in the aisles either on camper chairs they had brought or even on the floor!

 

Why does this not happen here? Perhaps it is just a matter of a different culture - or a lack of it! 'Dumbing down'?

 

What can we do about it? Education?

I think that local culture, time and place (speaking literally and culturally) do indeed affect a number of factors relating to certain types of concerts. Sometimes it is part of the history of a town, perhaps the style of music that is prevalent whether it is pubs that have popular weekly rock bands, jazz bands or perhaps a community of people who happen to have a lot of string players around and have small ensembles who like to give concerts. I could expand on this but there is not space and it's a bit off topic. But above all I firmly believe that the way concerts are promoted and presented makes a big difference - and yes, it involves mundane, tedious work and running around. My wife has a sister who sings in a newish Chamber Choir. The choir included us on their rural tour. My wife decided to take on the promotion and in additon to her Mon-Fri job as an acting manager, ran morning noon and night emailing, posting letters, faxing, telling people, putting up posters, handing out leaflets, writing letters to every imaginable local/regional group, "talking it up" sending off media releases to the local paper, sending personal invitations, and so on.

It was endless leg work . . and the reward was a very good attendance (and on a cold wet night). At a recent organ concert that I gave, the organisers got a packed the church (admittedly that is only 150 people) and they also ran hard at the publicity, with a small committee that did the same things as my wife.

But the programming has to be approacable too. I keep my Vierne and so on for Sunday voluntaries or as a finale in the odd 'big' concert that I do. Most of my concerts are at churches where the people react best to 'user friendly' music . . . but I play only "real" organ music, but that includes (as in my last concert) things like the Bach-Vivaldi Concerto in G; Schumanns Canon in B minor for pedal piano (which interestingly was one of the most popular pieces on the programme), Wolstenholme, Wesley, Claussmann (Scherzo in D), lively chorale-preludes, and so on. It's music that I think is worth learning but it's also tuneful and worthy. Also I talk briefly and positively to audiences: tell them how delighted I am that they turned up on a cold wet night . . . explain how effective their organ is for a particular piece, etc. I keep it brief and pacey: sorry if this is not your style, but it works for me and keeps people on side, interested and asking me to return!

In summary organists perhaps need to radiate a more obvious enjoyment and enthusiasm for each piece, every audience, every venue and instrument: don't give up - sell what you love doing!

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Last week on a visit to the deep South (of England) I visited an organ recital which neatly encompassed the problems of the genre. I paid £7 to get in, the church was cold, the advertising was amateurish, the programming was lazy and lacked any thread, and although the organ was excellent and the player quite good I barely felt like I got my money's worth. Had I wished to drink a glass of wine during the interval it would have cost me another £2. The audience was attended by all of about 40 people.

 

There are various reasons why people don't go to hear organ recitals any more. Post-reform movement performance practice has nothing to do with it (people flock to hear Rachel Podger play unaccompanied Bach on the same violin for the entire concert MM!)

 

I think the problems lie elsewhere:

 

- the organ is only musical instrument for which you can regularly pay to hear substandard playing

 

- organ recitals usually happen in churches which, with some exceptions, are seldom good at doing PR.

 

- even in the best situations, organ events are rarely professionally advertised to the extent that other art music genres are. (This is very important - at the annual Toulouse les Orgues festival the events are advertised much like a top concert hall would sell Joshua Bell or Daniel Barenboim and the audiences are huge, often paying prices unheard of in the UK - EUR 25 is quite normal). If one's resources aren't as lavish as in Toulouse, JOR's 'endless legwork' becomes essential. Unlike the era of WT Best, audiences have thousands of choices in terms of how they use their leisure time.

 

- organists, especially but certainly not exclusively, in the UK, have a habit of playing very dull repertoire by second rate composers (Harvey Grace's championing of Rheinberger was great for Rheinberger but very bad for organ recitals!) How often do you hear an organist performing with the principle clarinetist, cellist, trombonist (delete as appropriate) of the nearest professional orchestra? On the continent the organ and contemporary dance genre has been done to death but I've never seen it in the UK. The problem with what JOR calls 'tuneful, worthy music' is that it further alienates the organ from mainstream (art-) music making. Concert pianists or violinists don't tend to play 'tuneful, worthy' music. It also more or less rules out any contact with contemporary music and the possibility to engage with today's composers.

 

In the UK, organ concerts, especially in churches, and especially when they become social events (ie a lunch concert includes lunch!) can be very successful. I believe Gordon Stewart's series in Huddersfield attracts large audiences for instance (albeit not in church of course). The UK is also very good at outreach work with children etc (organists like Daniel Moult are especially good).

 

What I also notice is that organists with series in their own churches tend to invite a certain kind of colleague - either the local Cathedral assistant, or a less local but long-established 'big name'. (To the non-organ world, the organ world doesn't have big names!) Why, for example, are the most recent prize winners of the international competitions not invited? Often they're still students, desperate for the performing experience, and certainly not demanding huge fees. This way the cliche that the organ is the sole preserve of middle-aged men (too common!) is avoided and international players bring a completely different programming dynamic.

 

Stepping off the soap-box...

 

Bazuin

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The problem with what JOR calls 'tuneful, worthy music' is that it further alienates the organ from mainstream (art-) music making. Concert pianists or violinists don't tend to play 'tuneful, worthy' music.

 

Have I misunderstood you? Or isn't this the problem: who are we trying to attract to organ concerts? Yes, many of us will not get much of a kick out of 'tuneful worthy music' but I would far rather see of a church full of 'man in the street' type audience listening enthusiastically, than five shivering organists and two professors of music banging on about how I did the ornament in bar 34! If we are attempting to change culture - or improve it for that matter - surely we begin where we perceive it needs to be 'informed' and meet it at an agreeable and approachable level . . from the audience point of view.

I am not so sure about other concert performers not playing 'tuneful/worthy' etc: it seems to me that whether we like it or not, many top artists (i.e. piano/violin) do include a few potboilers as part of quite serious programmes. I am not suggesting that we take the Classic-FM "throw in anything" approach, but perhaps I was clumsy in expressing myself earlier - a good tune (and plenty of our most illustrious composers have written some) will not hurt any concert programme . . . AND I think if you have the correct sort of programme you can include something strange and avant garde:I know older members of the congregation at my church often remark (favourably!) on contemporary voluntaries . . (so long as it's all things in moderation).

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- the organ is only musical instrument for which you can regularly pay to hear substandard playing

 

 

Stepping off the soap-box...

 

Bazuin

 

I have seen organ recitals advertised to "raise funds for the organ restoration project" or similar. I have never seen a piano recitlal dedicated to raising funds for the restoration of the piano, nor a violin concert dedicated ..... and so on.

 

I wait for an announcement for an orchestral concert to raise funds for the orchestra - or a Mass to raise funds for altar breads!!!!

 

Peter

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I am not suggesting that we take the Classic-FM "throw in anything" approach...

Well, there is one outlet for music that all of us can influence. Then we might have more than three works on the menu! For example, much as I like Saint-Saens 3, why do we never hear the Poulenc concerto?

 

It is very easy to make contact with Classic FM presenters, they are a very approachable lot. Let's start providing suggestions to expand the broadcast repertoire. But it will have to be reasonably digestible stuff to start with.

JC

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I suspect MM's video gives us part of the answer. Unfortunately, there will be some of our number who will be as sniffy about that performance as they are about Carlo Curley or Cameron Carpenter. Who could captivate an audience better than George Thalben-Ball or hold people's attention more than Pierre Cochereau? It was people like that who inspired me as a boy.

 

The trouble is that so many organ recitals now are principally for the pleasure of the performer and his/her friends, not the audience. At one I went to last summer, I sat in the choir stalls as the best position to see and hear, only to be approached by the (well known) organist who told me curtly that he hoped I wasn't going to rustle any papers or shuffle about, because he was recording his recital and the microphone was nearby. What a welcome!

 

If we are going to bring an appreciation of the organ to the general public, we also have to give them something in "bite-size chunks". How many I-player tracks last more than three minutes? Fifteen minutes of Bach on a unchanging registration can be difficult to appreciate, even for afficionados. Every public recital needs to be like an art gallery, where you can find little gems that trigger your imagination among familiar and comfortable works. And it needs a bit of star quality from the performers. Britain's Got Talent... but you would be hard pushed to spot it in our corner of the musical scene.

JC

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I have never seen or heard Cameron Carpenter live, but I never tire of attending a Carlo concert, because he is an interesting and lively person who loves his job, and does not play just for the money.

Yes, too many recitalists play for themselves, and I do not know why they do not play requests as a DJ in a disco would do.

There are plenty of competent organists and boring ones also, who do not attract large numbers even when their concert is free.

Colin Richell.

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