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Karg-Elert - Nun danket alle gott


Philip
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One of the staples of the repertoire, and I've been 75% of the way to being able to play this for some time, but the one thing that has always troubled me is the rapid upwards rushes, which I can never seem to get my fingers round. What am I doing wrong?

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One of the staples of the repertoire, and I've been 75% of the way to being able to play this for some time, but the one thing that has always troubled me is the rapid upwards rushes, which I can never seem to get my fingers round. What am I doing wrong?

I was once told that Karg-Elert used to play a plagal Amen at the end of this piece. I sometimes do - it makes much more sense of the ending of the piece, which can otherwise be a bit of an anticlimax. Can anyone confirm this?

 

I think the "upward rushes" can be played fairly freely - I get the first 8 notes under my fingers before I start, and then a slight change of position for the last 4.

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One of the staples of the repertoire, and I've been 75% of the way to being able to play this for some time, but the one thing that has always troubled me is the rapid upwards rushes, which I can never seem to get my fingers round. What am I doing wrong?

I had real problems with these until I realised that KE/the printer had shown what to do indirectly.

 

As I play it:

 

1st flourish (bottom of 1st page in the Brietkopf/Simon edition) LH 5 4 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 RH 1 2 3 4

 

2nd (3rd system 3rd side) LH 5 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4

 

3rd (last bar) LH 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 LH 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4

 

ie all in groups of 4. All improvements gratefully received!

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I had real problems with these until I realised that KE/the printer had shown what to do indirectly.

 

As I play it:

 

1st flourish (bottom of 1st page in the Brietkopf/Simon edition) LH 5 4 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 RH 1 2 3 4

 

2nd (3rd system 3rd side) LH 5 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4

 

3rd (last bar) LH 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 LH 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4

 

ie all in groups of 4. All improvements gratefully received!

 

This is the same as my fingering for the 2nd and 3rd flourishes.

 

For the first flourish, I use a slight variation that I need to allow my right hand to open in time for the following chord:

1st flourish (bottom of 1st page in the Brietkopf/Simon edition) LH 5 4 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 LH 2 1 RH 3 4

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I had real problems with these until I realised that KE/the printer had shown what to do indirectly.

 

As I play it:

 

1st flourish (bottom of 1st page in the Brietkopf/Simon edition) LH 5 4 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 RH 1 2 3 4

 

2nd (3rd system 3rd side) LH 5 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4

 

3rd (last bar) LH 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4 LH 4 3 2 1 RH 1 2 3 4

 

ie all in groups of 4. All improvements gratefully received!

I concur with the first two. I probably should also with the third, but trust me to be different!

 

I play the last one as a straight split between the two hands using a D major scale fingering with a small modification. First octave, D-D all LH. but passing over the 4th finger instead of the third to cater for both the C natural and C sharp. Then RH 2312345. Well, it works for me.

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I concur with the first two. I probably should also with the third, but trust me to be different!

 

I play the last one as a straight split between the two hands using a D major scale fingering with a small modification. First octave, D-D all LH. but passing over the 4th finger instead of the third to cater for both the C natural and C sharp. Then RH 2312345. Well, it works for me.

 

On a related but unrelated matter concerning left hand cheats, my organ teacher once pointed out that the rapid chord sequence on the penultimate page of Alain's Litanies that the right hand invariably screws up actually fits far more neatly under the left hand - the problem with that is that you are forced to cross hands, unless you play it on an organ with an octave and unison off couplers.

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  • 2 months later...
On a related but unrelated matter concerning left hand cheats, my organ teacher once pointed out that the rapid chord sequence on the penultimate page of Alain's Litanies that the right hand invariably screws up actually fits far more neatly under the left hand - the problem with that is that you are forced to cross hands, unless you play it on an organ with an octave and unison off couplers.

Should that be the other way around? The rapid chords are written for the LH, but can be played by the RH if you cross your hands. Do others do this?

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Should that be the other way around? The rapid chords are written for the LH, but can be played by the RH if you cross your hands. Do others do this?

 

 

========================

 

 

I don't normally do French, but I did enjoy learning "Litanies."

 

I cannot believe I spent so much time trying to learn that LH part, when the obvious thing would have been to reverse hands.

 

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr! :o

 

MM

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========================

 

 

I don't normally do French, but I did enjoy learning "Litanies."

 

I cannot believe I spent so much time trying to learn that LH part, when the obvious thing would have been to reverse hands.

 

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr! :angry:

 

MM

 

Sorry, it's a while since I played. Yes, whichever the "written" way is, swapping hands fits more easily. However, unless you want to look like an octopus, it's only really feasible if you can bring the upper part (LH?) down an octave eg by playing the right hand part, with the left hand, on the Swell with suboctave on and unison off.

 

Correct me again if I got that the wrong way round. You just have to experiment.

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Sorry, it's a while since I played. Yes, whichever the "written" way is, swapping hands fits more easily. However, unless you want to look like an octopus, it's only really feasible if you can bring the upper part (LH?) down an octave eg by playing the right hand part, with the left hand, on the Swell with suboctave on and unison off.

 

Correct me again if I got that the wrong way round. You just have to experiment.

 

 

All those years of searching on limited instruments for acceptable registrations for the Bach Sonatas, and then playing movements with the RH down an octave and the LH up an octave pay off! :angry:

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  • 4 years later...

Regarding the run in b.16, I've always played the eighth note as a D-natural, but a student of mine who has just learned it plays a D-sharp which sounds odd to me. Despite the D-sharp on the second beat of that bar, the cautionary D-sharp printed on the tenth note (and I note in the manuscript this is not even cautionary, i.e. it's not in brackets), leads to me think D-natural was the composer's intention for the eighth note of the run. Thoughts?!

 

Positif

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How interesting. I have always blindly played a D natural as well.

I assume the manuscript you refer to is the 1939 copy by Bram Bruin that is on IMSLP. I don't think you can tell anything from this without knowing the source from which it was copied. It could even have been copied from the printed edition. One would need to see Karg-Elert's own manuscript, if it still exists.

 

It is very strange that a cautionary accidental in brackets should be added to the final D. Why was it thought necessary there, but not for the previous D? If the second D is really intended to be sharp, is not a cautionary accidental even more pertinent there? One possible explanation is that Karg-Elert intended the second D to be natural but forgot to write the accidental and that the square brackets around the ensuing sharp were added by the printer, who did happen to spot that the second D was already theoretically sharp. That is only a wild guess though.

 

It is probably worth mentioning that playing a D natural does mean that the demisemiquavers at this point then reiterate the melodic outline of the first three beats of the bar (B C D D# E, with an extra C thrown in), but I am always a little sceptical about relationships like this.

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