pwhodges Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sounds like a tribute to Virgil Fox... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coram Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Sounds like a tribute to Virgil Fox... Paul Absolutely not. Just using the organ in the way it was intended to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajsphead Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. An Arthur Harrison Large Open is a wonderful thing yes possibly, but a beautiful thing, no. A solo stop, yes possibly, but a beautiful solo stop, again, no. You can solo with anything, but it's not by mistake that very few orchestral pieces have been written with a tuba solo and fewer still, ones that take it seriously. AJS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Drinkell Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. An Arthur Harrison Large Open is a wonderful thing yes possibly, but a beautiful thing, no. A solo stop, yes possibly, but a beautiful solo stop, again, no. You can solo with anything, but it's not by mistake that very few orchestral pieces have been written with a tuba solo and fewer still, ones that take it seriously. AJS My ear must be different from your ear - I know quite a few Arthur Harrison Large Opens that I would consider to be things of beauty. I'm not sure that the analogy with an orchestra is valid either - there aren't that many bass solos of any kind in orchestral music, and the tuba's chances are further reduced because only the most generous scoring calls for the instrument at all. I've often felt uncomfortable, though, when listening to brass ensembles (even Philip Jones over thirty years ago when I was a student) because the broad tone of the tuba never seemed a good mix with the brighter trumpet and trombone timbres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Harvey Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 A lot of nonsense has been written about Arthur Harrison Large Open Diapason, much of which is highly inaccurate when applied to his best work. I would suggest to those that haven't heard or played one, to seek out an unaltered example and draw your own opinions. Prepare to be surprised! The Large Open at All Saints Tooting really dispels the myths that have built up about these stops. Tooting's Large Open has beautifully judged (and very extensive) harmonic development, which equally at home in a solo capacity or as a foundation in the chorus, in which it forms a perfectly judged and important part. It is judged brilliantly to work in both roles and the execution is peerless, as you would expect. Although the comments may be applied to lesser builders of the period, or rebuilt H&Hs, I feel uncomfortable drawing the conclusion that all Arthur Harrison Large Open Diapasons are oddities of limited musical use. It simply isn't true. I would also question the wisdom that the only way to accompany them is with strings and all octave couplers. There are many options on a good H&H (some of them very surprising) - to simply use strings with octave couplers strikes me as rather unimaginative and tasteless (as Hecklephone would rightly acknowledge... ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Walker Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 it's not by mistake that very few orchestral pieces have been written with a tuba solo and fewer still, ones that take it seriously.AJS Indeed AJS you are right - few orchestral composers have exploited the tuba as a solo instrument. However, (a bit like the under appreciated Aurther Harrison Large opens) isn't this something of a missed opportunity? Listening to the movement 'Bydlo' from Ravels transcription of Pictures from an Exhibition (Mussorgsky) the Tuba is used as the solo throughout. It has a very solemn effect, and is my favorite part of the work for this unusual feature! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidh Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 My, my! What a long way this thread has gone from the opening topic. Anyone who has joined the tail end of this discussion might look again at my first post. As a more general point, I think that it would be a good idea when a thread has deviated far from the declared topic, to start a new thread, e.g. "Harrison Open Diapason (was Cavaille-Coll). David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Jose Rigby Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 Recently on this site and elsewhere there have been recommendations for the videos produced by Fugue State Films, including those on Bach's Art of Fugue, "The Elusive English Organ", "Virtuoso! Music for Organ" and "The Historic Organs of the Province of Groningen". There is also a DVD on "English Organ Improvisation" in production. Their latest project is on the organs of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll. The Project To mark the 200th anniversary of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll's birth, and the 150th anniversary of his organ at St Sulpice, Paris, in 2012, Fugue State Films plans to produce a DVD / CD boxed set containing the first ever full-length documentary about his life and work. Aristide Cavaillé-Coll was the greatest organ builder of the 19th century and also probably the most famous of all organ builders. Creator of such instruments as those in St Sulpice, Paris, St Ouen, Rouen, he devised a new way of building organs that led directly to the development of the French Romantic school of organ composition. Franck, Widor, Vierne and all their contemporaries and followers were directly inspired by the sounds and possibilities of Cavaillé-Coll's organs. They composed pieces that pushed the boundaries of composition for the instrument and are now at the very heart of the organ repertoire. This music is indivisible from the organs of Cavaillé-Coll. Each is made for the other. The documentary will be accompanied by a plethora of recordings and filmed performances of magnificent works by Franck, Saint-Saëns, Guilmant, Boëllmann, Widor and Vierne on a superb selection of Cavaillé-Coll's best organs – expect to see St Sulpice, St Ouen, St Sernin, and more. The performances will be given by the very best players – expect to see famous French titulaires as well as leading English organist Gerard Brooks. As well, a fully illustrated booklet will include photos, details and specifications of all the organs and essays about the composers and music. See http://www.fuguestatefilms.co.uk/cavaille-coll/default.html For as little as £40 you can place an advance order (including P&P) which will go up to £50 + P&P when they are released. The whole project will cost £80,000, half of which still has to be raised. In addition to supporting them with advance orders, there are opportunities at prices from £100 up to £10,000 to become more involved, from being included in the list of credits on the DVD, through to choosing the music for a track, visiting the locations during filming and taking a share of the profits. They have some of my money already! David Hitchin Better still David, join us in the Parr Hall, Warrington on the 17th June 2011 and hear the 1870 Cavaille-Coll Great Organ being played by Roger Fisher and Benjamin Saunders. It will be a memorable celebration of Aristide's work. Tempo Primo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 My ear must be different from your ear - I know quite a few Arthur Harrison Large Opens that I would consider to be things of beauty. I'm not sure that the analogy with an orchestra is valid either - there aren't that many bass solos of any kind in orchestral music, and the tuba's chances are further reduced because only the most generous scoring calls for the instrument at all. I've often felt uncomfortable, though, when listening to brass ensembles (even Philip Jones over thirty years ago when I was a student) because the broad tone of the tuba never seemed a good mix with the brighter trumpet and trombone timbres. ================== A proper Tuba will blend with Cornets of course, (not the organ type), as well as Tenor Horns and Euphonium. Cornets also blend well with Trombones, and a good brass composer/brass band conductor exploits this difference in timbre to good effect. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusingMuso Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 A lot of nonsense has been written about Arthur Harrison Large Open Diapason, much of which is highly inaccurate when applied to his best work. I would suggest to those that haven't heard or played one, to seek out an unaltered example and draw your own opinions. Prepare to be surprised! The Large Open at All Saints Tooting really dispels the myths that have built up about these stops. Tooting's Large Open has beautifully judged (and very extensive) harmonic development, which equally at home in a solo capacity or as a foundation in the chorus, in which it forms a perfectly judged and important part. It is judged brilliantly to work in both roles and the execution is peerless, as you would expect. Although the comments may be applied to lesser builders of the period, or rebuilt H&Hs, I feel uncomfortable drawing the conclusion that all Arthur Harrison Large Open Diapasons are oddities of limited musical use. It simply isn't true. I would also question the wisdom that the only way to accompany them is with strings and all octave couplers. There are many options on a good H&H (some of them very surprising) - to simply use strings with octave couplers strikes me as rather unimaginative. ================== I agree with Colin, but where we part company is the sheer loudness of the Harrison chorus. I don't, as such, have a problem with leathered diapasons and high pressures when they are voiced well; Compton did it all the time to wonderful effect. I just question why they chose this method, when Schulze had shown how to achieve much the same thing using modest wind; albeit a little slower in speech, if that matters all that much. MM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Harvey Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 ================== I agree with Colin, but where we part company is the sheer loudness of the Harrison chorus. I don't, as such, have a problem with leathered diapasons and high pressures when they are voiced well; Compton did it all the time to wonderful effect. I just question why they chose this method, when Schulze had shown how to achieve much the same thing using modest wind; albeit a little slower in speech, if that matters all that much. MM Yes, agreed. Some of the early H&Hs are rather loud... arguably too loud. I put it down to the exuberance of youth. I agree Compton too dispels the myth too about large Diapasons on high wind pressures - but St Albans in Holborn anyone...? I agree on the Schulze point too: I'm no voicer but I understand the advantage of higher wind pressure is ease of getting consistent results, the possibility of quicker speech on the larger pipes and a larger scope of voicing possibilities to play with. I'm always surprised how quickly H&H Large Opens speak - they go like the clappers, even on quite remote pneumatic actions. I would be quite happy if they spoke slightly slower - it's almost what I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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