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Least Musical Stop


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I was quite interested to read DC's comments about the Twelfth at Romsey. I would have thought it is not impossible that the original twelfth would have been thrown out when the harmonic flute was installed and when the twelfth was restored in 1982 (at the same time the party horn was installed and the pressure to the Barker level raised (and was the wind system in the organ revised at this time too - I don't remember?)), they just used the old harmonic flute, transposed and maybe cut it down? Can anyone confirm? After all, the work in 1982 was not noted for its sympathy to the rest of the organ, however much the organbuilders working on it would have venerated the qualities of the original instrument.

 

You should be very careful what you say about Manders!

 

The 1982 work was hugely sympathetic, as it happens, and way ahead of its time in restoration terms - re-instating the orginal scales and compositions of mixtures which had been altered. Other quotes at the same time (including one from a firm you like a lot) were proposing to electrify, fit a detached console and add Larigots and strings. (At least the Tuba is designed to be removable in a few minutes leaving no trace.) So, for sympathy, the 1982 work gets my vote every time. Far more irreversible work has been done subsequently.

 

The Twelfth pipes are marked Twelfth and are the original ones from 1858. The change to 'Harmonic Flute' was later, probably by Walkers in 1888. The top five pipes were re-made in total sympathy.

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Guest Echo Gamba
You should be very careful what you say about Manders!

 

The 1982 work was hugely sympathetic, as it happens, and way ahead of its time in restoration terms - re-instating the orginal scales and compositions of mixtures which had been altered. Other quotes at the same time (including one from a firm you like a lot) were proposing to electrify, fit a detached console and add Larigots and strings. (At least the Tuba is designed to be removable in a few minutes leaving no trace.) So, for sympathy, the 1982 work gets my vote every time. Far more irreversible work has been done subsequently.

 

The Twelfth pipes are marked Twelfth and are the original ones from 1858. The change to 'Harmonic Flute' was later, probably by Walkers in 1888. The top five pipes were re-made in total sympathy.

 

A good many years ago ( back in the 70s I would think) my late parents spent a weekend in Romsey, and I recall my mother telling me that they had looked at the organ "on my behalf" and been told by a lady on duty in the church that it was "a lovely organ, but not complete" What would she have been talking about please?

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A good many years ago ( back in the 70s I would think) my late parents spent a weekend in Romsey, and I recall my mother telling me that they had looked at the organ "on my behalf" and been told by a lady on duty in the church that it was "a lovely organ, but not complete" What would she have been talking about please?

 

If it was 1974 then it was in bits for a cleaning/overhaul (and the alterations to the wind, and revoicing of all the reeds on new tongues) - a project which was largely unsuccessful, and led to several years of warranty calls and reliability problems which brought about the 1982 work.

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You should be very careful what you say about Manders!

 

The 1982 work was hugely sympathetic, as it happens, and way ahead of its time in restoration terms - re-instating the orginal scales and compositions of mixtures which had been altered. Other quotes at the same time (including one from a firm you like a lot) were proposing to electrify, fit a detached console and add Larigots and strings. (At least the Tuba is designed to be removable in a few minutes leaving no trace.) So, for sympathy, the 1982 work gets my vote every time. Far more irreversible work has been done subsequently.

 

The Twelfth pipes are marked Twelfth and are the original ones from 1858. The change to 'Harmonic Flute' was later, probably by Walkers in 1888. The top five pipes were re-made in total sympathy.

You're right to put the record straight re. pipework. How interesting the Twelfth is wooden! A Gore-Ousley specialty?

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Guest Echo Gamba
I read somewhere - perhaps on this board - of a general cancel thumb piston dupicated as a toe piston. This may not be the least musical playing aid but it may be the most redundant!

 

 

Peter

 

Am I right in thinking that at Liverpool Cathedral one of the divisions has more pistons than stops?

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Guest Roffensis

For me the most unmusical stop is the Tuba. There are very many bad examples around, and to me even the finer among them are hardly musical. Noisy honking car horns more like. Of course, certain kind composers have set to it that we have delightful Tuba Tunes to exploit these curiosities so I suppose they will be about for some time yet, but the stops role in the Organ per se has always baffled me. The French had it right with Chamades, where they cap but do not obliterate all around them.

 

That's my humble opinion. :lol:

 

R

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For me the most unmusical stop is the Tuba........................................................The French had it right with Chamades, where they cap but do not obliterate all around them.

That's my humble opinion. :lol:

R

 

Interestingly - I had the rare and exciting chance to be able to compare a 'cluster'of these the other week - S. Sulpice, S. Etienne du Mont, Les Invalides, La Madeleine, S. Eustache, S. Francois-Xavier, S. Clothilde and of course the multiple lot at Notre Dame all in Paris. The best are those modelled on Cavaillé-Coll or of course his originals - the newer set at Notre Dame and those at S. Clothilde added at the recent rebuild are good. The best new ones in my opinion are those at La Madeleine. Apparently these were prepared for by CC but never inserted - the 'works' were all there just no pipes or chests. They somewhat reminded me of the Nave Tubas at St Pauls! The more neo classical examples are not all that pleasant.

 

A

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See under "Accessories" here

 

And what exactly might the item under "other information" mean anyone? :lol:

 

Hi

 

It was presumably a comment on the original survey that was transcribed by the person who entered the data on NPOR. These days we would either not put that sort of comment in, or attribute it to the relevant person. I've no idea what was meant.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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The Chamades at La Madeleine, Paris, you can hear here towards the middle and the

end of the improvisation:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHxm9mYJiTM...player_embedded

 

We exchange 2,500 redundant 20th century chamade stops for good Tubas.

(which would leave us with 7,500, enough for a sound Heritage management)

 

Pierre

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... We exchange 2,500 redundant 20th century chamade stops for good Tubas.

(which would leave us with 7,500, enough for a sound Heritage management)

 

Pierre

 

Who said anything about chamades being redundant?

 

:lol:

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They aren't!!! Even 32s have their limits!! :rolleyes:

 

R

 

Well, the new Disney organ in Los Angeles has no fewer than THREE 32 foots (ony one of which is resultant) on just the Great! I believe that's a world record for the number of 32 foot stops to be found on one manual. Even Atlantic City and Wanamaker can't match that (though there is a 32 reed on the Swell and a 32 flue on the Great at Pasadena).

 

Contrabombarde (32!)

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Guest Echo Gamba
Well, the new Disney organ in Los Angeles has no fewer than THREE 32 foots (ony one of which is resultant) on just the Great! I believe that's a world record for the number of 32 foot stops to be found on one manual. Even Atlantic City and Wanamaker can't match that (though there is a 32 reed on the Swell and a 32 flue on the Great at Pasadena).

 

Contrabombarde (32!)

 

Which begs the question, what use are manual 32's?

 

(By the way, neither this, nor my 64' question) were in any way rhetorical. I would genuinely like to know)

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Which begs the question, what use are manual 32's?

 

(By the way, neither this, nor my 64' question) were in any way rhetorical. I would genuinely like to know)

 

The GO chorus at S. Eustache in Paris is amazing with 32' through to Mixture - for an older version try some Classical French stuff on the 32' chorus at S. Croix in Bordeaux - also amazing. Likewise the 32' reed at S. Eustache for a super full Swelll effects.

 

A

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Guest Echo Gamba
Members of a certain age might be remembering a bottle of fizzy pop at this point!

:rolleyes:

 

DT

 

Sound of fizzy pop fizzing!? Ah yes, the swell mixture on the old R & D at St Peter Mancroft, Norwich! :blink:

 

Yes, I am of the age to remember the drink!

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Sound of fizzy pop fizzing!? Ah yes, the swell mixture on the old R & D at St Peter Mancroft, Norwich! :blink:

(off topic)

Oh, one of the VERY FEW occasions for me to jump up and say: An instrument (out of the hundreds mentioned here) I played!

It must have been in 1983, when I came to Norwich with our school choir from southern Austria to make a visit to our twin school, which was Hewett School. Our choirs made some events together, one was an afternoon concert at Peter Mancroft Church, with me accompanying maybe Mozart's Ave verum or so. Did already know what an open diapason is, and found that there are more than one on one division.. I did not record and not remember that it was a R & D - I was far away from becoming church musician in those days (sigh), and even more far away from showing interest to anglican church music like today...A do remember a very "intensive" party together with some Hewett pupils after another event...

 

Back to St P M: Is the R & D still there? Already then I was told that they are gathering money for a new tracker instrument.

 

Sorry for interrupting this discussion, but it was lovely to have this memory recalled... :rolleyes:

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Guest Echo Gamba
The present organ is a Peter Collins of 1982.

 

Paul

 

But part of the R&D remains as an east-end Choir Organ, built by Boggis in 2001. The Collins is at the west end.

 

Vox Humana may already know that in fact the R & D was their rebuild of a Hele ;)

 

I have just looked at the Mancroft organs on NPOR? and we can get back on topic by asking two questions:

1) What use was the Dulciana Quint 5.1/3 on the Hele / R&D; and

2) There has been discussion elsewhere (Worcester Cathedral) regarding use of the Tuba in chorus. The Hele/R&D (not uniquely) had the

Tuba duplexed on the Great. Was this to make it easier to add the Tuba to the chorus without having to couple the choir/solo?

Edit - sorry; NPOR link is somehow wrong and I can't seem to edit it (how do you do that?)

 

2nd edit: I realize that the wording above is ambiguous. What I meant was, how do you edit a URL link in a posting here - not how do you edit the NPOR

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