Appointments 2

[S_L]

I hope this isn't too oblique but, with a possible change 'at the top' in the offing, (a certain person has just passed his 75th birthday) and the possibility of the new appointment being an ex RNCM scholar it might be more interesting than may first appear!!! 

[wolsey]

28 minutes ago, S_L said:

I hope this isn't too oblique but, with a possible change 'at the top' in the offing, (a certain person has just passed his 75th birthday) [...]

It is a matter of public record that “He wants me to stay in post, so I will stay because that’s where my orders come from, that’s where my mandate comes from. I’m going to stay and continue to work wholeheartedly at these matters.”

[S_L]

1 hour ago, wolsey said:

It is a matter of public record that “He wants me to stay in post, so I will stay because that’s where my orders come from, that’s where my mandate comes from. I’m going to stay and continue to work wholeheartedly at these matters.”

Thank you for that - that titbit hadn't reached the depths of the South Charente! 

[Rowland Wateridge]

2 hours ago, Dr Nigel H Day said:

Westminster.  “Accommodation near the Cathedral is provided on licence.”  Any idea what this means ?

It will be interesting to see who applies, if the shortlist ever leaks out.

It means that the accommodation is linked to the employment and the licence does not create a right to possession.  In simple terms more of a permission than a right to occupy the accommodation. It would almost certainly be limited to the period and performance of the employment, subject to reasonable notice to terminate the licence.  

[Dr Nigel H Day]

Thanks for the licence clarification.

The whole application seems be shrouded in some degree of secrecy.  You express an interest in 1000 words, and only if they think you are a viable candidate, do you get the full application pack.  This is unusual.

[S_L]

16 hours ago, Dr Nigel H Day said:

Thanks for the licence clarification.

The whole application seems be shrouded in some degree of secrecy.  You express an interest in 1000 words, and only if they think you are a viable candidate, do you get the full application pack.  This is unusual.

It does seem a little strange. Having said that I remember applying for a Cathedral Director of the Music post some years ago. In truth I really didn't expect to be interviewed. I held major Diplomas but not in organ playing and a first and research degrees. I got to the last three and the interviews were, to say the least, rather strange and, at one point, slightly acrimonious!!!. At the end of the two days they told us that they couldn't make up their minds and needed the weekend to think about it! On the Monday they rang me up and offered me the post which, having had a weekend to think about it, I sent them back to think again and refused their offer.

At one point during the two day interview I was told how many applications they had received. It was a huge number. And the quality of the applications and musical standing of some of the potential candidates was, apparently, quite bizarre with all kinds of people making an application who were, simply, not up to the job - in either qualifications or experience!

Maybe the 1000 word letter is to weed out the chaff before it gets too far down the line!

As an aside, at that interview I was the only one of the three who didn't consider myself to be an organist (in those days I could play to ARCO standard!) - even though I did play the Cathedral organ as part of the interview! It was commented on by one of the interviewing panel and, had I accepted the Monday morning offer, I think I would have been the first Director of Music in a cathedral who was not, principally, an organist.

[iy45]

One eminent current Cathedral DOM claimed around the time of his appointment never to have played a note on the organ.

Ian

[Dr Nigel H Day]

31 minutes ago, iy45 said:

One eminent current Cathedral DOM claimed around the time of his appointment never to have played a note on the organ.

Ian

This is all part of the debate as to whether a DoM is actually better placed if s/he is a top class choir trainer rather than an ‘Organist and Choirmaster’. If there is a significant back-up of assistant organists to always provide cover,  then the ‘top choir trainer’ appointment can make sense.

[Vox Humana]

5 hours ago, S_L said:

At one point during the two day interview I was told how many applications they had received. It was a huge number. And the quality of the applications and musical standing of some of the potential candidates was, apparently, quite bizarre with all kinds of people making an application who were, simply, not up to the job - in either qualifications or experience!

I would be surprised if this were unusual. There are plenty of people out there who over-estimate their capabilities as much as they under-estimate the professional standards and organisational abilities required for the job. Many years ago a top (Anglican) assistant assured me, in all seriousness, that there were people who would actually offer to pay to have his job.  I still can't quite believe that, but he may perhaps have been thinking of the US, where he had worked for a while.

[Martin Cooke]

I can't help wondering if a modified St Paul's model could work elsewhere. Aim for a DoM who is a singer/choralist rather than an organist, and then have two organists beneath, though I accept that St Paul's has three organists in addition to Andrew Carwood. I suppose having a DoM who is a very competent organist as well as a choralist makes for greater flexibility in terms of covering the work though. 

[Dr Nigel H Day]

28 minutes ago, Martin Cooke said:

I can't help wondering if a modified St Paul's model could work elsewhere. Aim for a DoM who is a singer/choralist rather than an organist, and then have two organists beneath, though I accept that St Paul's has three organists in addition to Andrew Carwood. I suppose having a DoM who is a very competent organist as well as a choralist makes for greater flexibility in terms of covering the work though. 

The ‘forward facing’ rôle of the DoM is mostly choir training.  The ADoM does most of the playing.  There are many highly talented (non-organist) choir trainers who could do a DoM job at least as good as our best DoMs.  Where there is substantial support in the ‘playing department’ it does not make sense to be over-restrictive in requiring FRCO standard DoMs.

[Martin Cooke]

27 minutes ago, Dr Nigel H Day said:

The ‘forward facing’ rôle of the DoM is mostly choir training.  The ADoM does most of the playing.  There are many highly talented (non-organist) choir trainers who could do a DoM job at least as good as our best DoMs.  Where there is substantial support in the ‘playing department’ it does not make sense to be over-restrictive in requiring FRCO standard DoMs.

That's what I am thinking, Nigel. But, I suppose a certain amount of organ playing is essential and it depends on whether they can manage with just two organists. 40/50 years ago, it would have been most unusual to have two music staff at any service. I wonder if two staff are needed on dumb days when you would think it quite possible for one to manage with a pitch pipe. It seems awfully dull but also luxurious for an organist to just have to turn up to play a few chords and no voluntaries.

And speaking of pitch pipes (and tuning forks)... it is awfully irritating to see in some of even our most celebrated 'quires and places where they thing', the person intoning the responses using a tuning fork almost incessantly - not just at the beginning of the set, but before each and every intonation, and sometimes holding the wretched thing by their ear and banging it on their head whilst they actually sing!! 

[Vox Humana]

1 hour ago, Martin Cooke said:

Aim for a DoM who is a singer/choralist rather than an organist, and then have two organists beneath

Voluntaries apart, the problem with this, for an organist, is that you are always playing someone else's interpretation; you never get a chance to air your own.  Trying to do so when the boss is away might or might not be feasible because you'd be upsetting apple carts.  You really do have to set your own opinions aside.  

[innate]

40 minutes ago, Martin Cooke said:

And speaking of pitch pipes (and tuning forks)... it is awfully irritating to see in some of even our most celebrated 'quires and places where they thing', the person intoning the responses using a tuning fork almost incessantly - not just at the beginning of the set, but before each and every intonation, and sometimes holding the wretched thing by their ear and banging it on their head whilst they actually sing!! 

I can imagine that might be the result of not-so-subtle work-place bullying by a DoM.

“I’m not sure you realised, but you managed to end the Second Collect a quarter of a tone sharp this evening.”

[Dee E. Surtees]

Regarding the role of a DoM, I wonder whether it wouldn’t make more sense to separate the posts of DoM and Assistant from the rôles of organist and choir master. You could appoint one of each, and the most senior would be the Director of Music. 
I don’t know if that would actually work in practice. 
As an aside, are there any cathedrals currently running with only one member of staff (excluding temporary vacancies)? I know until Rachel Mahon’s appointment in 2018, Coventry were without an assistant (though have recently advertised for a replacement following her promotion).

[DQB123]

Presumably there are a vast number of organists who have no interest whatsoever in directing choirs. Why should it be assumed that organists are singers or have knowledge of vocal technique or choir training?  The appointment of a singer as DoM at St Paul's seemed to me to be hugely sensible. 

Did a similar situation exist in Liverpool during the time of Messrs Woan & Rawsthorne?

[Vox Humana]

7 minutes ago, D Quentin Bellamy said:

Presumably there are a vast number of organists who have no interest whatsoever in directing choirs.

Indeed, there are a vast number of organists whose musical horizons are really rather narrow.

[Guest]

Looking at the collegiate choirs, I notice the advert for King's (DoM and two organ scholars) stated that the DoM need not be an organist. For New College (Organist, Assistant Organist and two organ scholars) the further particulars make no mention of playing the organ, simply that the Organist has "responsibility for all aspects of the upkeep of the organ".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr Nigel H Day]

2 hours ago, michaelwilson said:

Looking at the collegiate choirs, I notice the advert for King's (DoM and two organ scholars) stated that the DoM need not be an organist.

Many institutions - King’s included - have supporting ‘vocal coaches’.  These can be a valuable addition where the DoM is perhaps a stronger organist than a choir trainer.

[wolsey]

46 minutes ago, Dr Nigel H Day said:

Many institutions - King’s included - have supporting ‘vocal coaches’.  These can be a valuable addition where the DoM is perhaps a stronger organist than a choir trainer.

I don't think that the engagement of a vocal coach/tutor has any bearing on the choir-training strengths of the DoM. I can think of plenty of foundations with fine choirs under excellent directors where a vocal specialist is also part of the music team.

[S_L]

16 hours ago, D Quentin Bellamy said:

Did a similar situation exist in Liverpool during the time of Messrs Woan & Rawsthorne?

It certainly did at the Metropolitan Cathedral in Liverpool. I don't believe that Philip Duffy was an organist but he was the most superb choir trainer and, in those days the Metropolitan Cathedral choir was quite magnificent with a huge and diverse repertoire. His brother, Terence, the Metropolitan Cathedral organist, was a fine player.

[S_L]

On 17/01/2021 at 16:44, Vox Humana said:

Indeed, there are a vast number of organists whose musical horizons are really rather narrow.

I couldn't agree more!!!!

(continued the next morning!)

I remember an article quite some years ago, written by Lionel Dakers. He had been staying with an organist (?) and, during the stay he had perused his host's CD collection. He found it unusual enough to comment about it. Alongside standard repertoire (all the B's & S's!) there were works by Stockhausen, Boulez as well as Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. Americans were represented by John Cage, Morton Feldman and Lou Harrison (the Piano Concerto - in that wonderful performance by Joanna McGregor). Parry and Stanford were there - but they were not the 'church music' but the symphonies of Stanford and the Concerti of Parry! And so on!

I realised some way through the article that Lionel was writing about me! I didn't think my CD collection, (Yes, I've still got it and have enlarged it since to include works by Michael Finnissy (including a first performance conducted by me!), Paul Patterson, Judith Weir, Diana Burrell, Steve Martland etc.), was particularly worth writing about but Lionel, who was making the point that organists are so often rather insular in their musical tastes, seemingly disagreed!  

Friends, colleagues and acquaintances on here have a huge and wide variety of musical tastes and knowledge. I'm grateful for that because it has pointed me in directions that I might have otherwise missed. But I am sorry to say I think those friends, colleagues and acquaintances are, in my view, very much in the minority as far as the general run of the mill organist is concerned. I knew one guy, I was at University with him, who firmly believed that music stopped in 1750!! He was an extreme exception but he got his degree and is practising his craft!!   

[S_L]

Church Times - today 29/01/21

Director of Music - Wakefield Cathedral

"At Wakefield, we believe that the Anglican choral tradition is a distinctive gift, which the cathedral offers first to God and then to the wider community." 

[Dafydd y Garreg Wen]

4 hours ago, S_L said:

Church Times - today 29/01/21

Director of Music - Wakefield Cathedral

"At Wakefield, we believe that the Anglican choral tradition is a distinctive gift, which the cathedral offers first to God and then to the wider community." 

Well put. An implied rebuke to their neighbours in Sheffield??

[Dafydd y Garreg Wen]

On 17/01/2021 at 21:18, S_L said:

I knew one guy, I was at University with him, who firmly believed that music stopped in 1750!!

Personally I’d say the rot set in when we abandoned monody. Ban organum now, before it’s too late!!!!