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20 Stops On Two Manuals


Pierre Lauwers

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Well, would I dare post this one here? It met with interest

on the french forum.

 

20 speaking stops on two manuals/Pedal.

It could be build by a british builder for a continental church.

 

Manual I

 

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8' ( large )

Open Diapason 8' (small)

Stopped Diapason 8'

Octave 4'

Quinte 2 2/3' (a Twelfth)

Doublette 2' (A Fifteenth)

Mixture 3r 1 3/5'- 1 1/3'- 1' (Typical Willis I scheme)

Trumpet 8' (Willis kind)

 

Manual II (enclosed)

 

Dulciana 8' (Classic, not stringy)

Vox angelica 8' (Slightly stringy, like Mr Mander does)

Zauberflöte 8' (Thynne)

Dulciana 4'

Traversflöte 4' (Walcker)

Dulcet 2'

Dulciana Mixture 3r 1 1/3'-1'- 2/3'

Cornet 3r ( 18th century english))

Cornopean 8'

 

Pedal

 

Contrebasse 16'

Soubasse 16' (emp.I)

Violoncelle 8' (ext Contrebasse)

Octave basse 8' (emp. Bourdon 16'I one octave higher)

Bombardon 16' (Not "french", rather foundationnal)

 

The Dulciana chorus is a transposition from larger organs by far, like H&H

cathedral organs. Here it is intended as a secondary Diapason chorus, do not

expect a choir of String Gambas!

This second chorus is a hint higher as the first, but above all softer, like in the northern/ central german romantic organs (Schulze, Jehmlich, Ladegast...).

The Full Swell is of course obtained with the Cornet, not the DM.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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I quite like this, but wouldn't the Dulciana chorus sound rather colourless? I can't quite see what advantages it would have over a diapason chorus. Maybe the 8ft could be a Gemshorn. I've come across American organs which have this on the Swell, plus a Gemshorn Celeste; it's quite an effective compromise.

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A too soft Dulciana in a huge cathedral organ can of course be colorless,

no doubt.

But this stop dates from the 18th century, from Snetzler, its classic version

being Green's .

In little organs about this size...

So I see it as a softer, silvery diminutive Open Diapason.

I'm not after compromises, rather a more subtile kind of synthesis!

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk
Well, would I dare post this one here? It met with interest

on the french forum.

 

20 speaking stops on two manuals/Pedal.

It could be build by a british builder for a continental church.

 

Manual I

 

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8' ( large )

Open Diapason 8' (small)

Stopped Diapason 8'

Octave 4'

Quinte 2 2/3' (a Twelfth)

Doublette 2' (A Fifteenth)

Mixture 3r 1 3/5'- 1 1/3'- 1'   (Typical Willis I scheme)

Trumpet 8'   (Willis kind)

 

Manual II (enclosed)

 

Dulciana 8'  (Classic, not stringy)

Vox angelica 8' (Slightly stringy, like Mr Mander does)

Zauberflöte 8'  (Thynne)

Dulciana 4'

Traversflöte 4'  (Walcker)

Dulcet 2'

Dulciana Mixture 3r 1 1/3'-1'- 2/3'

Cornet 3r ( 18th century english))

Cornopean 8'

 

Pedal

 

Contrebasse 16'

Soubasse 16' (emp.I)

Violoncelle 8' (ext Contrebasse)

Octave basse 8' (emp. Bourdon 16'I one octave higher)

Bombardon 16' (Not "french", rather foundationnal)

 

The Dulciana chorus is a transposition from larger organs by far, like H&H

cathedral organs. Here it is intended as a secondary Diapason chorus, do not

expect a choir of String Gambas!

This second chorus is a hint higher as the first, but above all softer, like in the northern/ central german romantic organs (Schulze, Jehmlich, Ladegast...).

The Full Swell is of course obtained with the Cornet, not the DM.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

 

 

This specification reminds me of an organ which already exisits. It is at St.Swithun's, Hither Green, London SE13. Pierre, do you know how to access the NPOR? You will find the specification etc. there. Unfortunately, I am not IT-knowledgeable enough to know how to put a link here.

 

The story of this organ is very unusual, and I think bears repetition here:

 

It was a very non-descript instrument fallen on hard times and about thirty years ago the church folk wanted it rescuing and improving. Henry Willis 4 was invited to suggest a scheme and his tactic was to say, 'how much can you afford to spend?' On being told the answer, he said 'Leave it to me' - no design was submitted and they were brave enough to leave him to it. One of the most resourceful two manual organs of its time emerged. The pipework is from all over the place, but it all hangs together wonderfully well - at least to my ears.

 

You may ask why they allowed HW4 to do this with so imprecise a brief: he had just rebuilt the instrument at Southwark Cathedral with a new console and he was 'well in' with the Diocesan Organs Adviser.

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Guest Lee Blick

GREAT

8 Open Diapason

8 Violoncello

8 Stopped Diapason

4 Principal

4 Flute Harmonique (solo stop not a chorus stop)

2 Fifteenth

III Mixture (22,26,29)

 

SWELL

8 Flute Versatilique (pull out gradients 8, 5 1/3, 4, 2 2/23, 2, 1 1/3, 1 - extended rank)

8 Dulcianna

8 Sugar Angelica (ten C - undulating)

4 Gemshorn

2 Piccolo

IV Mixture (17,19, 21b,22)

16 Cor Magique (pull out half-way for 8', pull out fully for 8'+16')

8 Hautbois

Octave

 

PEDAL

16 Open Bass

16 Sub Bass

8 Octave Wood

8 Flute

Octave

 

usual couplers and aids.

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I think the 8ft flute on the swell, with seven ranks would be just as costly to build as seven individual stops, although you mention it would be an extended rank.

 

That would give you some tuing issues, as for a mutation stop, you would want perfect fifths, or whatever the intervals are, as opposed to the unperfect fifths necessary for the 8ft stop to be in tune with itself at equal temperament, or other temperaments.

 

That aside, I think a more useful stop than the Pedal 8ft Octave Wood would be an 8ft Open Diapason on the Swell, giving you two really independent choruses on the manuals. I might be tempted to exchange the 16ft swell reed for a 16ft pedal reed of some description.

 

I've always preferred manual harmonic flutes at 8ft pitch, especially if their role is as a solo stop. I've never understood the reason for a Gt 4ft harmonic flute in the absence of an 8ft harmonic flute.

 

But this is entirely academic, as we have no idea what sort of a room this instrument is intended for and, if it is for a church, what its liturgical role would be.

 

When real organ builders have to come up with real solutions to real instruments and buildings, I think it is much more interesting than drawing up fantasy stop lists.

 

But there's no harm in it. If we can play fantasy football, or fantasy cricket or, in my case, fantasy profesionall cycling team management, then there is no reason why we shouldn't play fantasy organbuilding.

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Guest Lee Blick
I might be tempted to exchange the 16ft swell reed for a 16ft pedal reed of some description

 

Not sure I would really agree with you there. The 16ft reed is there as a chorus reed as part of a 'Full Swell'. The rank exists as an extension to the 8ft reed.

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I'm not sure to draw specifications "for nowhere" is that

useless.

We can do with some training after 60 years of "unique thinking".

 

I come back on Lee's work.

 

I note the Great Chorus is very high-pitched (22-26-29), while

on the Swell we have actually a "Harmonics" stop, intended

for the full Swell, which includes a 16' reed stop.

 

As a result the Swell will sound deep and "romantic", while

the Great is still quite neo-baroque high pitched.

I'd go for a deeper-pitched Great Mixture, and a Twelfth.

 

"Sugar angelica", is there not a hidden condemnation there?

A good celeste is not sugar at all, it's rather a kind of slighltly

acidic "bonbon".

 

As for the Pedal 16' reed a compromise could be simply borrowing

the Swell's one.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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Guest Lee Blick
"Sugar angelica", is there not a hidden condemnation there?

A good celeste is not sugar at all, it's rather a kind of slighltly

acidic "bonbon".

 

 

Yesss, that's even better, 'Bonbon Celeste' :(

 

Well come on, organists deserve a little flair in the nonclamenture :P

 

As a result the Swell will sound deep and "romantic", while

the Great is still quite neo-baroque high pitched. QUOTE]

 

Yes, that is what I want: A fiery Swell with a bright, unenclosed Great, topped with a sparkling (but not forced) Mixture.

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Why a 4ft flute that isn't usable in a chorus? Surely that's limiting the organ's flexibility? A good 4ft flute ought to be able to fulfil both functions.

 

I assume you achieve the different pitches of your Swell 8ft flute by drawing it in stages. I wouldn't want the pitches appearing in order from bottom to top - and what is the point of 1ft stops anyway? I'd go for a sequence of something like 8, 4, 2, 2 2/3, 1 1/3, 5 1/3. But with so many draw stages, isn't it going to be very hit-and-miss if you want to pull just the 8, 4 & 2 pitches quickly? And I think Anthony's point about the tuning needs considering too. Personally I'd lose the mutations. And then how much money would you save by having just one stop knob instead of separate ones?

 

Voix Celeste and Salicional every time. At least Howells sounds OK with a Voix Celeste; I don't think French music does on a Vox Angelica. I'm thinking of the typical English Voix Celeste, which is not so astringent as the French ones (nice though they are). Also, you say your Full Swell is going to be fiery, so wouldn't it be better to have the quiet stuff not totally at odds with this personality?

 

Like Pierre, I'm not sure whether the Great Mixture should be so high. Depends what breaks you envisage, of course. Maybe it could be made to work, but, personally, for three ranks I'd stick to 19.22.26.

 

Edit: Just read this post again and it struck me that it sounds a bit belligerent. If so, I apologise. It wasn't meant to.

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All I can find on this completely incomprehensible

site is this:

 

http://npor.emma.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/BOASear...h&boa_ref=8034&

 

Not much data also.

Can anyone help?

 

pierre

 

Hi

 

To access NPOR (which currently has around 30,000 surveys of present and past British organs) go to http://www.bios.org.uk/npor then click on the "NPOR" tab. (Normally) select address and enter, for example, the church name and town name (don't bother with the "St." as the system won't recognise it!) and click "send" (If you're not sure if we have a survey, check the "include sites with no survey" option) You'll then have a list - normally in date order - of the surveys we have for that building - click on the numbered link and you're there. It's actually quicker than it sounds.

 

One caveat - make sure your spelling is correct - compuers don't have any inteligence! The "wild-card" symbol is "%" - not "*" that Windozes uses.

 

The BOA section is an index of (so far only) some of the archive material held in the British Organ Archives in Birmingham. If we have BOA info, it should also appear at the bottom of the normal NPOR surveys (if it doesn't it's because a link is broken - let us know!).

 

There are other ways of searching - e.g. by builder (if it's a popular firm, add e.g. a county name!)

 

Hope this helps.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Thanks Mr Newnham,

 

Maybe the problem for us abroad is the distinction

NPOR-BOA!

 

I just tried it that way and indeed it works.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre Lauwers

 

Hi

 

Glad to help. Knowing where to look is half the battle in finding information!

 

Both the National Pipe Organ Register and the British Organ Archive come under the umbrella of the British Institute for Organ Studies. The register is just that, a register of pipe organs in the UK. The archive is a listing of historical material held by the organisation (or at least some of it - I think there's more to index).

 

As you may remember, I'm one of the NPOR editors.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Hi

 

Glad to help.  Knowing where to look is half the battle in finding information!

 

Both the National Pipe Organ Register and the British Organ Archive come under the umbrella of the British Institute for Organ Studies.  The register is just that, a register of pipe organs in the UK.  The archive is a listing of historical material held by the organisation (or at least some of it - I think there's more to index).

 

As you may remember, I'm one of the NPOR editors.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Dear Rev Newnham,

 

I recently sent a couple of updates to the NPOR, but I haven't received any acknowledgement and wondered why this practice has been discontinued. I'm not even sure the updates have been received. Previously, at least you knew updates had arrived, even though the database took some time to update. And it was much easier to send updates via the link contained in each individual record, alas now gone.

 

Graham

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Dear Rev Newnham,

 

I recently sent a couple of updates to the NPOR, but I haven't received any acknowledgement and wondered why this practice has been discontinued. I'm not even sure the updates have been received. Previously, at least you knew updates had arrived, even though the database took some time to update. And it was much easier to send updates via the link contained in each individual record, alas now gone.

 

Graham

 

Hi Graham

 

I'm not sure why acknowledgements are not being sent - I'll try and find out.

 

As you are probably aware, the NPOR is under new management, has moved offices and web servers - so there is a rather large back-log which we are trying to clear as quickly as possible.

 

I'll pass your comment about the link to the relevant person as well.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

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Well, would I dare post this one here? It met with interest

on the french forum.

 

20 speaking stops on two manuals/Pedal.

It could be build by a british builder for a continental church.

 

Manual I

 

Bourdon 16'

Open Diapason 8' ( large )

Open Diapason 8' (small)

Stopped Diapason 8'

Octave 4'

Quinte 2 2/3' (a Twelfth)

Doublette 2' (A Fifteenth)

Mixture 3r 1 3/5'- 1 1/3'- 1'  (Typical Willis I scheme)

Trumpet 8'  (Willis kind)

 

Manual II (enclosed)

 

Dulciana 8'  (Classic, not stringy)

Vox angelica 8' (Slightly stringy, like Mr Mander does)

Zauberflöte 8'  (Thynne)

Dulciana 4'

Traversflöte 4'  (Walcker)

Dulcet 2'

Dulciana Mixture 3r 1 1/3'-1'- 2/3'

Cornet 3r ( 18th century english))

Cornopean 8'

 

Pedal

 

Contrebasse 16'

Soubasse 16' (emp.I)

Violoncelle 8' (ext Contrebasse)

Octave basse 8' (emp. Bourdon 16'I one octave higher)

Bombardon 16' (Not "french", rather foundationnal)

 

The Dulciana chorus is a transposition from larger organs by far, like H&H

cathedral organs. Here it is intended as a secondary Diapason chorus, do not

expect a choir of String Gambas!

This second chorus is a hint higher as the first, but above all softer, like in the northern/ central german romantic organs (Schulze, Jehmlich, Ladegast...).

The Full Swell is of course obtained with the Cornet, not the DM.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

 

 

Please gentlemen, I am not trying to be rude or insensitive; but should one consider any of these specification are to be taken seriously? Do I just not get the joke? I cannot imagine anyone over here proposing anything close to these (USA). Forget Bach, I can't imaging trying to play Mendelsohn or Brahms on such an instruments.

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Thank you. Tony.

 

For this thread:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Violone (M) 16

Sub Bass 16

Quint (Std. W) 10 2/3

Violoncello (Ext.) 8

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Swell 4p to Pedal

 

Pedal and Great Pistons Coupled

Generals on Swell Foot Pistons

 

GREAT ORGAN

 

Quintatön 16

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Wald Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (19-22-26-29) IV

Swell 16p to Great

Swell to Great

Swell 4p to Great

 

SWELL ORGAN

 

Open Diapason 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Viole de Gambe 8

Voix Célestes (AA) 8

Gemshorn (Conical) 4

Mixture (15-19-22) III

Bass Trumpet 16

Hautboy 8

Cornopean 8

Tremulant

Sub Octave

Unison Off

Octave

 

Wind Pressures:

 

All flues: 90mm

Swell reeds: 110mm

 

(Wind pressures are subject to the location of the instrument and the size and acoustic properties of the building in which the organ is to be housed.)

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