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Pierre Lauwers

20 Stops On Two Manuals

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That being so, I would prefer to have the swell positioned above the Great. I hope that there is sufficient height in the church so the temperature gradient from top to bottom of the church is such that there is an insignificant temperature difference between the swell pipes and the great pipes.

 

This also may vary with the style.

A typical Walcker for instance would have had

the Swell -rather an echo division- at the back of the great,

and this intentionally to get subdued tones.

Now if the Swell is intended for power, there is the intermediary

Cavaillé-Coll's solution: Swell above the great, but backward as well.

Pierre

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This also may vary with the style.

A typical Walcker for instance would have had

the Swell -rather an echo division- at the back of the great,

and this intentionally to get subdued tones.

Now if the Swell is intended for power, there is the intermediary

Cavaillé-Coll's solution: Swell above the great, but backward as well.

Pierre

You actually get all types here: Romsey, for example, has the Swell quite a distance above the Great, in the triforium. Others have swell behind great at the same level, some have Swell above and behind great. I have even come across a few that have swell behind and below the Great. I've come across a new, very competent, organ at Woodmansterne in Surrey that has this arrangement.

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2 chorus trumpets: yes, luxury, but a luxury I would be keen to have.
Me too. If you are playing on the Great and gradually opening the throttle on the Full Swell, what are you going to do to cap that when you want that bit of extra oomph? Well, OK, you can keep the compound stops in reserve if you like, but nothing beats a Great reed if you can find room for one.

 

I find that salicionals get swamped by anything larger than an echo lieblich gedact with the box shut.
That is most certainly not the case with the Salicionals I have met. The best Salicionals add warmth and richness to the 8ft flute in combination without being thin and scratchy on their own. I would always have one - and have it voiced to do the job I want it to do!

 

So I'll have a single rank beating against one of the foundation stops to give the impression of a celeste.
er... I thought that was precisely what a céleste is...?

 

I tihnk it was David Coram who nominated wooden pedal octaves as the least musical stop on this forum and I agree with him. But our experience is based on the woolly octave extensions of 16 open woods, which are generally horrible. However, some modern builders are using wooden octaves of small scale and prompt, clear speech - Ken tickell is an advocate - which they cite as adding to a bourdon to give the impression of a 16 Open Diapason - a bit like a helper bass. they are very useful and effective. So that's what I was thinking here.

Again, what's in a name? Voice it to do the job you want done. I agree with David that an 8ft extension to the typical English 16ft Sonic Boom is pretty undesirable, but then I think of the splendid 8ft Holzprinzipal on the Klais in Aachen that I mentioned in another thread the other day. This was the main 8ft chorus foundation on the Swell and its voicing enabled it to fulfil the function of either a diapason or a flute as required. A most versatile stop. Open Woods of this type do have their uses.

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...For example, I know of a few instruments where the use of 8+4 flutes from the swell plus great twelfth would be distressingly harsh.

 

Quite possibly - this was not something which I had recommended!

 

In response to the other questions:

 

2 chorus trumpets: yes, luxury, but a luxury I would be keen to have. Very useful for French romantic music and terracing the choruses. It also gives the impression of a big organ from a small number of stops. I've had to live with an organ of 23 stops with no great reeds (or mixture) and found the lack very wanting. We could, I guess, perhaps have a clarinet on the great instead. The more forthright examples can add an extra clang to the ensemble and the upperwork can help give the impression of a trumpet.  Examples where this works well include the Tickell at Honiton and I've come across a few other examples. It could also be used as a solo but if it's forthright, probably more of Cremona than a refined clarinet.

 

flute disposition: I elected to put the 4' flute on the swell, where I find it is currently useful to have one to appear above 8 foundations and under control of the swell box. A 4' Gt flute would be very nice and would figure highly with me, especially for more variety of 8 & 4 combinations, but I've lived with lots of small organs without (like this 23 stop organ I without great reeds or mixtures) and in balence, this is sacrifice I would be happy to make. Since the 4' flute was on the swell, it made sense to add a 2' flute for a complete flute chorus and the 8 + 2 combinations so useful in the "parish choir" music of John Rutter :P

 

However, this would be at the expense of a secondary chorus; something which I would find infinitely more useful!

 

You have got 16 & 8 flutes on the Gt, which could possibly be used up an octave. However, it might be a bit top-heavy if the 8' flute is a claribel. Regarding the claribel, I would want a small, light one, like the earlier Willis ones rather than the big, thick hooters we don't like.

 

Sesquialteras belong to the principal family and I would expect them to work with the principals first and foremost and with the flutes as an added bonus. So I don't think a 4' flute is lacking for this reason.

 

Whilst this is true,does this not also make this stop (in addition to two trumpets) something of a luxury? I am not convinced that it would have much value in accompaniment, or for that matter, solo repertoire - unless one plays a great quantity of 18th Century British music!

 

...Swell Undulant; no, that's not a swell undulant you see.

 

Ummm.... yes it is! To describe a separate 'beating' rank as an undulant is perfectly correct!

 

...It is actually a celeste to work with the violin diapason but in retrospect, I see no reason why it shouln't be a flute celeste.

 

I am not convinced that this would work! A flute-toned Céleste is unlikely to beat effectively with a diapason rank. A diapason-toned Céleste will beat effectively with your specified diapason. However, I am not convinced of its utility in either service-playing or solo repertoire.

 

Onto another point,  there is a secondary chorus - of violin diapson, principal and 2' mixture on the swell. I've played organs with tierces in their mixtures and wouldn't say that they are not choruses. So I don't agree with pcnd here. If you go for gambe/salicionals for your celestes, you get an even less satisfactory secondary chorus....

 

Neither do I agree with you, Colin! A secondary chorus consisting of principals at 8p and 4p, with a four-rank mixture containing a tierce is, to my mind, highly un-satisfactory. Personally, I would find it no use whatsoever for the music of JS Bach or Buxtehude, etc. But, each to his own!

 

I think it was David Coram who nominated wooden pedal octaves as the least musical stop on this forum and I agree with him. But our experience is based on the woolly octave extensions of 16 open woods, which are generally horrible. However, some modern builders are using wooden octaves of small scale and prompt, clear speech - Ken tickell is an advocate - which they cite as adding to a bourdon to give the impression of a 16 Open Diapason - a bit like a helper bass. they are very useful and effective. So that's what I was thinking here.

 

Hmmm.... Personally, I would greatly prefer a good metal rank, such as a Violoncello - or even a Principal. This would be likely to give greater definition. In any case, if the 16p octave is good, the primary purpose of the 8p rank is not to help the foundation rank, rather to develop the chorus and add definition. In addition, it should form an acceptable mezzoforte solo voice.

 

As regards octave couplers - yes, I can quite see pcnd's point. Given the option between the 2, I prefer couplers that couple through intermanual couplers rather than those that don't. Instead of swell octave to pedal for a 4' solo from the swell 8s, it's normal enough to use swell to pedal, with the swell octave and unison off. but what pcnd suggests is the ideal, even if I don't particularly like organ consoles with a plethora of octave couplers, especially on 2 manuals.

 

Regarding scales, I think there is some purpose giving some idea of what I'd like, especially as Pierre gave an idea of the church it was going in: a continental church, which generally are more lofty and spacious than british churches. I'm waiting for someone to bite on the dom bedos scales....

 

There is much to promote an interesting exchange of views here, Colin. Of course, it boils down to the type of instrument which one prefers - and the music which one prefers to play on that instrument.

 

:)

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Indeed Colin,

 

The idea was: a british organ for

a continental, vast church, west-end position.

Pierre

 

Pierre - if the church is to be vast and the organ is to be placed at the west end, then I am not convinced that twenty stops will be adequate - however good the voicing and position!

:)

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Pierre - if the church is to be vast and the organ is to be placed at the west end, then I am not convinced that twenty stops will be adequate - however good the voicing and position!

:)

 

Belgian builders like Van Bever could do it with 15 stops.

There are still many examples!

Pierre

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Greetings,

 

I'll bite again...

 

Great Organ - Enclosed

 

16' Lieblich Gedeckt

8' Open Diapason

8' Gemshorn

8' Claribel Flute

4' Octave

4' Lieblich Gedeckt (Ext. 16')

II Grave Mixture (12-15)

16' Clarinet (Ext. 8')

8' Trumpet

8' Clarinet

 

Swell Organ - Enclosed

 

16' Gamba

8' Open Diapason

8' Salicional

8' Voix Celeste

8' Rohr Floete

4' Gemshorn

4' Gamba (Ext. 16')

2' Flautino

III Plein Jeu

16' Hautbois (Ext. 8')

8' Cornopean

8' Hautbois

 

Pedal Organ

 

16' Bourdon

16' Gamba (Swell)

16' Lieblich Gedeckt (Great)

8' Diapason

8' Bourdon (Ext. 16')

8' Cello (Swell)

8' Lieblich Gedeckt (Great)

4' Diapason (Ext. 8')

16' Trumpet (Ext. Great)

16' Hautbois (Swell)

 

 

Tubular-pneumatic action of course! :)

 

Best,

 

Nathan

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Well tought this one, T-P!

 

I like the Lieblich and Gamba 16', the idea

of the mixtures.

We just talked about vast churches; total enclosures

may be better suited to little ones, tough.

An alternative would be to left the Great's flues in the

open, like Audsley advocated.

Pierre

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Hmmm.... I thought that we were dealing with twenty stops - the scheme by tubular pneumatic has in excess of thirty; this is already easier to design.

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Hmmm.... I thought that we were dealing with twenty stops - the scheme by tubular pneumatic has in excess of thirty; this is already easier to design.

 

There are just 20 speaking stops, and I did not forbid

nor borrowings nor extensions.

 

I myself prefer to limit that to the Pedal, with perhaps an

exception for a 16'-8' on the Swell provided it is a soft to

MF flue stop, a Salicional for instance.

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Well tought this one, T-P!

 

I like the Lieblich and Gamba 16', the idea

of the mixtures.

We just talked about vast churches; total enclosures

may be better suited to little ones, tough.

An alternative would be to left the Great's flues in the

open, like Audsley advocated.

 

Greetings,

 

From my perspective, it would be difficult to advocate unenclosed pipework until reaching the three-manual plateau. While I appreciate the sound of "free" pipes outside of any vowel chamber, I would think that the anonymity of the sound of a small instrument in a vast space would offset the ability to enjoy the effect of unenclosed pipes from most positions therein. I would also suspect that an unenclosed instrument would be inside a case in order to focus the sound, much as a well-conceived Swell-box is capable of doing. In addition, a two-manual instrument would be asked to do a lot in such a space - an ideal motivation for two enclosed divisions.

 

As for the 20-stop limit, I believe that my spec meets those requirements. There are other earlier specifications which feature borrowing, extension, and even an 8' flute drawing to six subsequent stages; which is why I included some borrowing and extension.

 

Best,

 

Nathan

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There are just 20 speaking stops, and I did not forbid

nor borrowings nor extensions.

 

I myself prefer to limit that to the Pedal, with perhaps an

exception for a 16'-8' on the Swell provided it is a soft to

MF flue stop, a Salicional for instance.

[/quote

 

This was not what your original post said - in this case, one could have twenty ranks and produce a Compton-type scheme in excess of one hundred stops.

 

In any case, there are actually thirty-two speaking stops, which have been derived from twenty ranks. Your original post, whilst including three pedal stops derived from a parent rank, made no mention of manual extension - not that I would advocate this, in any case.

 

It would be good to get things clear, Pierre!

:)

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Of course there may be confusion between "speaking stops" and "ranks".

 

In my view, this was: borrowing and extensions permitted on the Pedal,

not elsewhere.

I should have explained it.

Pierre

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Of course there may be confusion between "speaking stops" and "ranks".

 

In my view, this was: borrowing and extensions permitted on the Pedal,

not elsewhere.

I should have explained it.

Pierre

 

OK - thank you for that, Pierre!

 

I must admit that I was confused - since the scheme by tubular pneumatic also included four examples of extension on the GO and Swell.

 

Whilst on the subject, I would never consider enclosing a GO - ever! Regardless of what Mr. Compton may have achieved at Downside Abbey, or elsewhere!

 

:)

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Greetings,

 

My interpretation of the "rules" was to create an instrument with ranks on 20 toe-boards (exception being the large Pedal pipes of course); such that compound stops or groups of units would count as one.

 

As for enclosed Great Organs, while not necessarily ideal, neither is a 2m 20-stop instrument in a Cathedral. (C: There is a wonderful example of a small 2m enclosed instrument at St. Mary's Church, Norwalk, CT; a 1994 Austin.

 

Perhaps it is an American thing, but we're pretty big on two enclosed divisions; especially those with contrasting flue and reed choruses each.

 

Best,

 

Nathan

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This may be suited to the less resonant american churches,

maybe less to very resonant belgian ones.

But this said, a trial with a so-designed organ, a Schoenstein

for example, would be very interesting.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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This may be suited to the less resonant american churches.

 

Greetings,

 

Indeed we do have less resonant Churches on the whole. However, there are quite a few Catholic edifices here with tall clerestories that feature a respectable resonance and anonymity of sound. In fact, St. Mary's Church in Norwich, CT features a 2m Austin-rebuilt Estey with side-by-side Great/Swell in boxes; it makes a nice racket!

 

At any rate, I am not on the Schoenstein bandwagon. In fact, there is a line to be drawn between builders like Whitelegg and Skinner and those like Schoenstein, and Kimball. I believe that the first pair created instruments that, even when utilizing some manual duplexing or extension to the Pedal, acted like pipe organs to the point that a guest could sit down and play for the first time. Organs such as the latter pair, while capable of making wonderful music, really need to be learned over a longer course to get around their idiosyncrasies.

 

Best,

 

Nathan

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Whilst on the subject, I would never consider enclosing a GO - ever! Regardless of what Mr. Compton may have achieved at Downside Abbey, or elsewhere!

 

:)

 

I played a big Compton with an enclosed Great Organ and found it to be rather difficult to control. Not for me!

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Greetings,

 

As I mentioned before, I am NOT on the Schoenstein bandwagon; however, I did come across this old Diapason article in which their tonal director lays out his ideal composition of a small instrument:

 

http://www.thediapason.com/dp/main.cfm/pow.../articleID/3718

 

I think you'll begin to see a difference between the sort of Skinneresque or even Whiteleggesque borrowing and augmented Pedal and what is advocated by this article.

 

These instruments have quite a bit of borrowing and unification which I don't much care for; particularly unifying prominent voices like Tubas and such. I am also against the idea of giving unit registers different stop names than their parent ranks such as:

 

16' Bourdon

8' Gedeckt

4' Flute d' Amour

2' Squished Piccolo

 

If the flute needs to be unit it should be like this:

 

16' Bourdon

8' Bourdon

4' Bourdon

2' Bourdon

 

Again, I'm not necessarily endorsing heavy unification, but there should be rules that maintain some sort of convention in these situations.

 

Best,

 

Nathan

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More important that the extension's names is the fact Schoenstein

uses the right chest for the kind of organ they build...

 

By the way, I never succeeded using the search engine on this site.

I always get "nothing found". Is it necessary to be paying registred?

Pierre

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I would personally rather have a more 'honest' instrument - with no extension on the claviers and as little (extension) as possible on the pedals.

 

I still cannot see any musical reason for (or advantage in) the GO being enclosed - it will either rob it of some brightness, clarity and dignity, or it will sound forced as a result of elevated wind-pressures.

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Guest Lee Blick

GREAT

8 Open Diapason

8 Stopped Diapason

4 Principal

4 Flute

2 Fifteenth

1 1/3 Quint

III Mixture (17,19,22)

8 Trumpet

Swell to Great

 

SWELL

8 Gedackt

8 Viola

8 Voix Celestes (II rks, salicional or dulcianna type)

4 Gemshorn

III Mixture (!5,19,22)

16 Bassoon

8 Horn

Octave

Suboctave

Tremulant

 

PEDAL

16 Violone

16 Bourdon

8 Octave

8 Flute

16 Ophicliede

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

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I quite like this scheme. Just a couple of items:

 

Why the 1 1/3 on the Great? Why not a 2 2/3, which would be more usual, fitting in the 8' harmonic series.

 

Would not a 16' reed with a sub octave coupler be a bit hefty? Perhaps it would be better to have it at 8' so it can be used with the foundation stops. I would find this more flexible and you've got the sub 8ve coupler for the 16' effect.

 

If it were me, I might suggest substituting the 8' flute for a 4' rank but there are pros and cons...

 

I think there might be some on this board who may argue that the Great does not have a proper chorus because there's a tierce in the mixture and it is hence useless for Bach.

 

Is the intention that the celestes works by itself or against the viola?

 

Sorry, this might look a bit tight, but I think this looks like a pretty good scheme....

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"I think there might be some on this board who may argue that the Great does not have a proper chorus because there's a tierce in the mixture and it is hence useless for Bach."

(Quote)

???

Trost organs, among others, had indeed tierce Mixtures...

Quint Mixtures are to be found mainly in french organs.

But of course the neo-baroque scholars forgot this "detail"!

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

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