40 Stop, 3 Manual Organ

[DaveHarries]

Great idea for a topic. But if I wanted something seriously loud then I would go for a specification similar to the nave organ of Cologne Cathedral.

 

http://www.koelner-dommusik.de/fileadmin/u...ositionLang.pdf

 

But whilst that is 3 manuals it is 53 stops, without the Tremulants. First time I heard that organ in situ though it made me jump out of my skin.

 

Dave

[pcnd5584]

Well, should we play Bach and Grigny with aequal temperament ?

This would throw us back to 1950. 100% néo-classique,

Dufourcq and Bornefeld.

 

Bach was very happy with Trost, Wagner and Hildebrandt tuning.

Aequal temperament is good for any style after 1850, but before

that we need something else; and this is said by a late-romantic

afficionado...(who happens to be fond of baroque organs, the old

nails rather than the over-restored ones).

Tierce Mixtures like the german ones are unthinkable with aequal

temperament. Combined with unequal, they give an incredible

variety of strong colors. Color, precisely where the neo completely fails.

 

Pierre

 

Since the majority of instruments in the U.K. alone are tuned to a form of equal temperament, I should have thought that it was better to play Bach's music, than to allow it to languish. Besides, if others are happy to advocate playing Bach using seamless crescendi, Flute Célestes and massed 8p tones, then my view is that equal temperament is rather less injurious to the works of the great master.

 

I realise that some scholars have stated that Bach never actually advocated equal temperament tuning - rather he used it as a means to show what might be done. However, since this thread originally flew off at a tangent because I criticised the tierce mixtures at Salisbury Cathedral (and since that organ is tuned to equal temperament), then surely you have just re-inforced my argument - Bach's music does not translate well to English choruses which are capped by tierce mixtures. I again question that these mixtures on this organ were designed to re-inforce the reed trebles - they simply do not need the help of the mixtures.

 

I am further aware that we have spent much space debating south German mixtures - and whether or not they may have contained third-sounding ranks. I do not wish to introduce yet another tangent; however, I think that there needs to be a distinction between the suggestions of when Bach wished to use various tone-colours in his works. I have no problem with the idea of varied 8p timbres for some chorale preludes - or even the trio sonati (it is quite unlikely that Bach would have played, or have expected these to be played using 8p and 2p or 8p and 1 1/3p stops, for example*. It is more likely that in these works he would have envisaged contrasting 8p registers on the claviers.) On the other side of the coin, I remain unconvinced that he would have played large-scale preludes and fugues with massed 8p ranks, or very colourful registrations. The very linear movement and the vitality of the writing itself demands the energy and clarity of a chorus which is capped by clean, quint mixtures. Anything else is, for me, a distraction, a muddying of the waters.

 

 

 

* Some scholars have stated that 'gap' registrations did not form part of performance practice in the Baroque period. This is not correct; Dr. Williams refutes this statement, citing contemporary anectdotal evidence.

[Vox Humana]

Besides, if others are happy to advocate playing Bach using seamless crescendi, Flute Célestes and massed 8p tones, then my view is that equal temperament is rather less injurious to the works of the great master.

A very good point!

 

I realise that some scholars have stated that Bach never actually advocated equal temperament tuning - rather he used it as a means to show what might be done.

As far as I know Bach never so much as mentioned equal temperament. What he did recommend (by writing two sets of Preludes and Fugues in all the keys) was a "well-tempered" tuning, which is not at all the same thing. I see no reason why he should not have tuned his own klavier(s) to whatever temperament this may have been. The tale of Bach's playing forcing Silbermann to retire in order to avoid his own wolf fifth rather suggest that Bach did consciously advocate a well-tempered tuning, even in organs.

 

* Some scholars have stated that 'gap registrations' did not form part of performance practice in the Baroque period. This is not correct; Dr. Williams refutes this statement, citing contemporary anectdotal evidence.

Indeed. IIRC he believes (or did) that they were used mainly for chorale variations - I'm not sure what the evidence is. I do get the impression that gap registrations loom larger today than they did at the time, in Britain at any rate. But this is hardly surprising given the organs that most of us play. On an organ of Bach's time, soloing a chorale prelude melody on an 8' Prinzipal is by definition a perfectly baroque registration. A Great Open Diapason on a vintage Harrison and Harrison is not going to sound even remotely similar. If you want to try to preserve something of the Baroque sound world you are going to have to look for other solutions and these are likely to involve upperwork since that is where German Baroque organs differ most notably from ours. So the neo-Baroque taught us. Occasionally it works.

[pcnd5584]

... As far as I know Bach never so much as mentioned equal temperament. What he did recommend (by writing two sets of Preludes and Fugues in all the keys) was a "well-tempered" tuning, which is not at all the same thing.

 

You are of course correct, Vox! I knew this, and typed 'equal temperament' two or three times in the course of the post, in error....

 

I cite an exciting day at school as my excuse for this inattention....!!

 

[Vox Humana]

On a Friday evening it is entirely excusable! Slainte!

[Pierre Lauwers]

"Gap" registrations are documented in Italy in the baroque period, but whenever

one sees 18th century specifications in central Germany, it becomes clear this

was not quite really customary there.

You would rather have 8-8-8-4-4-2 2/3-2 and the like.

 

It was always the next temperament that was "aequal". The Franz-Caspar Schnitger

organ at Alkmaar was originally tuned "aequal", or whatever else name which would

mean the same, but it was actually something like "well-tempered". It was not before

1850 that we had something like the "real thing".

 

Tierce Mixtures with aequal temperament is a challenge E-F Walcker, and probably

Willis I (though his early organ were not tuned aequal!) mastered.

E-F Walcker solved the problem by building only the octave ranks after Principal scales.

The quints and the tierces were Flute, Dolce or Spitzflöte (for the tierce) pipes.

The result isn't a baroque stop anymore, though very, very close...Tapered tierce

ranks existed already during the baroque period.

 

The question is: do we like, and want, to play baroque music on true baroque organs,

or do we decide we need "something better" ?

The "néo-classique", ecclectic organ with bright quint mixtures I like in Duruflé

and Messiaen. For Bach, nein, Danke.

Same for chamades & Co. This is perfect for Cochereau, but sharp reeds without

leathered shallots (as all Bach organs had...), sharp quint Mixtures and aequal

temperament in Bach is like pouring Ketchup on oysters; you may like the Ketchup,

this is not the problem, but please not on my oysters.

 

"Old nails" baroque organs were tuned differently in Ghent than in Brussels. Same in

Germany, which was then a puzzle of little duchies. So if one likes the ancient organs

in anything close to original state, he must then be prepared to ear "false" notes all

day long!

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

"Gap" registrations are documented in Italy in the baroque period, but whenever

one sees 18th century specifications in central Germany, it becomes clear this

was not quite really customary there.

You would rather have 8-8-8-4-4-2 2/3-2 and the like.

 

It is unlikely that organists would have used massed 8p registers, simply due to problems with providing enough wind. In any case, I can supply documentation of examples of 'gap' registrations which were actually used by performers in the Baroque era. (However, this will have to wait until this afternoon, when I return from teaching.)

 

The question is: do we like, and want, to play baroque music on true baroque organs,

or do we decide we need "something better" ?

The "néo-classique", ecclectic organ with bright quint mixtures I like in Duruflé

and Messiaen. For Bach, nein, Danke.

Same for chamades & Co. This is perfect for Cochereau, but sharp reeds without

leathered shallots (as all Bach organs had...), sharp quint Mixtures and aequal

temperament in Bach is like pouring Ketchup on oysters; you may like the Ketchup,

this is not the problem, but please not on my oysters.

 

Pierre

 

It is well to remember that Dr. W.L. Sumner states that Bach had little or no proven contact with Wagner, the Berlin organ builder. It is also worthy of note that Gottfried Silbermann used a highter percentage of tin in his pipe-work, which had the effect of making the tone brighter, particularly with regard to the upper-work.

 

To take but one example: Frieburg Cathedral. This organ survives in much the same state as when it was first built. A cursory glance at my post of 13 September (which heads page 13) will remind us that all of the chorus mixtures contained quints and unisons only.

 

As we know, Bach himself left precious few instructions as to registrations (or even dynamic levels) for his organ works; however, there are a few exceptions. For example, the Trinity Prelude and Fugue, in E-flat major (BWV 552), at the head of which Bach wrote the direction praeludium pro Organo pleno*. There are also several markings of forte and piano throughout the Prelude - which would certainly indicate changes of clavier. Dr. Walter Emery states that In the German Baroque organ the term Organo pleno "probably implies something like the French Plein Jeu - manual flues against a reedy pedal." Other scholars have suggested a similar recipé. Forkel is of little help when he described how Bach used to entertain and impress strangers with long recitals of preludes and fugues played on the Full Organ (mit vollem Werk). As far as I am aware, there is no evidence that Forkel ever heard Bach play, Full Organ is almost certainly a mis-interpretation of Organo pleno and these 'preludes and fugues' were quite probably improvisations. Whether or not any were subsequently committed to manuscript paper and exist as part of his ouvre is uncertain. Nevertheless, even this does supply a hint of the type of registration which Bach would have expected for certain types of movement.

 

Is it true to suggest that you favour the type of registration (for a Bach prelude) which was featured in the first of your clips (the G major Prelude, BWV 541), Pierre? If this is the case, I find it quite iilluminating - it is the only recording I have heard which uses such a sound for this piece. Whilst we (this includes myself) should be aware of the danger of merely stating "I like" or "I prefer" when discussing the possible authentic registration of Bach's organ works, nevertheless nothing written here (or in any of the reference material I have been able to discover) leads me to believe that this is the type of registration which Bach would have used himself.

 

 

 

 

* The B minor Prelude (BWV 544) is also marked Organo pleno, although in this case it is unlikely that Bach desired structural registration, since no changes of clavier were specified. Whilst the evidence is incomplete, nevertheless it seems probable that the only clavier changes which applied to pleno movements were echo effects - and that these echo effects were appropriate only where Bach specified them.

[Pierre Lauwers]

1)- Mass registrations. They are of course documented, and Bach himself first drawn all stops

"to see if the lungs are good". five 8' on the Hauptwerk were common.

 

2)-Bach and Wagner. I give here an extract from "Die Orgeln J-S Bach". (as we deal with

german baroque, a few german as an exercice will do no harm, since I think the knowledge

of the german is necessary for any organ historian scholar):

 

POTSDAM

 

Johann Nicaulaus Forkel berichtet, dass Johann Sebastian Bach anlässlich seiner Reise nach Potsdam

und Berlin 1747 zu allen Potsdamer Orgeln geführt worden sei.

Alle Instrumente hatte der Silbermann-Schüler Joachim Wagner erbaut, mit dem Bach offenbar bekannt war.

(Buchstaben von mir in fett . P.L.)

Forkels Bericht stütz sich auf Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, der damals seinen Vater begleitete. Die Berliner Zeitungen berichten am Donnerstag

dem 11 Mai 1747, lediglich, dass sich Bach "Am Montage....In der Heil. Geist-Kirche zu Potsdamm auf der Orgel hören" liess, und "bey den in Menge vorhandenen Zuhörern allgemeine Beyfall" erwarb. Ob König Friedrich II, in dessen abendlicher Kammermusik Bach zuvor aufgetreten war, unter den Zuhörern weilte, ist nicht bekannt und eher unwarscheinlich.

 

....So W-L Sumner was wrong.

 

3)- Again, Gottfried Silbermann, trained in Strasbourg with his brother Andreas, was fed with the

french tradition (Thierry, Paris, where Andreas worked). His quint mixtures are an exception

in central Germany.

He was followed in this by Hildebrandt, but not Wagner (who were his pupils).

 

4)- The registrations illustrated above at Angermünde may be unique among the countless

recordings we have. But this does not mean they aren't the correct ones.

Angermünde is a typical central german baroque organ in its original state, an organ

Kern an his team studied up to the very last nail (among others like Brandenburger Dom)

before reconstituing the Marienkirche, Berlin, one. This organ sounds exactly like the

Potsdamer Wagner organs Bach played.

Of course, it does not allow 20th century-like "ta-ti-ti-tu-ta" Bach playing; it is too fat

and heavy in tone for that.

And as we know Bach had no "tongue in cheek" manners, if he did not scream against

Joachim Wagner, then he must have found the organs good enough...

 

"Baroque" means also: somewhat crazy, irrationnal. Just so are baroque organs. They are

daring, innovative instruments. Silbermann, by these standards, was a shy builder !

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

1)- Mass registrations. They are of course documented, and Bach himself first drawn all stops

"to see if the lungs are good". five 8' on the Hauptwerk were common.

It should be understood very clearly that this is NOT a registration for playing a piece of music. It was merely Bach testing whether the builder had supplied bellows to a specification adequate to cope with the developing trend of drawing multiple 8' stops and full choruses. If the organ could cope with every stop drawn, then it would certainly be able to cope with any registration the organist might choose. It does not entitle us to assume that organists ever played anything with all the stops drawn. And if they did, how long would the bellows blower have been able to keep going, I wonder?

[Pierre Lauwers]

It should be understood very clearly that this is NOT a registration for playing a piece of music. It was merely Bach testing whether the builder had supplied bellows to a specification adequate to cope with the developing trend of drawing multiple 8' stops and full choruses. If the organ could cope with every stop drawn, then it would certainly be able to cope with any registration the organist might choose. It does not entitle us to assume that organists ever played anything with all the stops drawn. And if they did, how long would the bellows blower have been able to keep going, I wonder?

 

Of course, Vox, we agree !

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

As we know, Bach himself left precious few instructions as to registrations (or even dynamic levels) for his organ works; however, there are a few exceptions. For example, the Trinity Prelude and Fugue, in E-flat major (BWV 552), at the head of which Bach wrote the direction praeludium pro Organo pleno*

 

* The B minor Prelude (BWV 544) is also marked Organo pleno, although in this case it is unlikely that Bach desired structural registration, since no changes of clavier were specified. Whilst the evidence is incomplete, nevertheless it seems probable that the only clavier changes which applied to pleno movements were echo effects - and that these echo effects were appropriate only where Bach specified them.

According to the NBA, Bach marks the following pieces "in organo pleno" or "pro organo pleno":

 

Sei gegrüsset, Jesu gütig (BWV 768), last movement only

Ach Gott vom Himmel sieh darein (BWV 741)

Meine Seele erhebt den Herren (BWV 733)

Komm, Heiliger Geist, Herre Gott (BWV 651)

Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland (BWV 661)

Komm, Gott, Schöpfer, Heiliger Geist (BWV 667; presumably the earlier version in the Orgelbüchlein, BWV 631, should be registered similarly)

Prelude and Fugue in b minor (BWV 544)

Prelude and Fugue in E flat (BWV 552; both movements have the direction)

Kyrie, Gott, Heiliger Geist (BWV 671)

Wir glauben all an einen Gott (the "Giant Fugue"; BWV 680)

Aus tiefer Not (BWV 868)

 

It has, I think, been suggested that "pro organo pleno" might mean merely "for a fully equipped organ", but I see no reason to doubt the more logical interpretation. Authorities do seem agreed that organo pleno meant the manual Prinzipal chorus to mixtures (sometimes with the 8' flute as well) plus reeds in the pedal. On the G. Silbermann at St George, Rötha it could hardly have meant anything else: there were no manual reeds and only three pedal stops - 16' Principal, 16' Posaune, 8' Trommete - and originally no pedal coupler. However improving wind supplies meant that by the 1730s players were throwing in flutes and reeds as well.

 

Note that all the above pieces are big, solidly contrapuntal ones. Then there's Forkel:

 

"When [bach] seated himself at the organ when there was no divine service ... he used to choose some subject and execute it in all the various forms of organ composition ... for two hours or more. First, he used this theme for a prelude and a fugue with the full organ. Then came a trio, a quartet, etc., followed by a chorale. Finally, the conclusion was made by a fugue with the full organ."

 

Note the use of organo pleno for the prelude and fugues.

[pcnd5584]

... 2)-Bach and Wagner. I give here an extract from "Die Orgeln J-S Bach". (as we deal with

german baroque, a few german as an exercice will do no harm, since I think the knowledge

of the german is necessary for any organ historian scholar): ...

 

Pierre

 

Whilst I would agree with you Pierre, I would state that it is also necessary for the serious student of the organ works of JS Bach be able to play them. I would question whether the organ works of Bach, of all composers, can be understood to any great degree without understanding the mechanics of the writing, the textures, the harmonic language and the nature of the sounds to be produced on a particular instrument.

 

We could argue until the end of time from our various standpoints; and, whilst it is interesting and informative to do so, it still does not answer the fact that Bach was, above all, innovative - this is well-documented as fact. Therefore, when I play Bach (and Ian Ball touched on this point, though not solely limiting himself to Bach's works) I will use any and every means at my disposal to ensure that my performance is as musical and as appropriate to the nature of the piece as possible. Clearly, this is a subjective opinion - it could hardly be otherwise. For example, I recently gave an evening recital at Romsey Abbey, due to the kind auspices of the Assistant Organist there, David Coram. Whilst practising one evening in the week prior to the recital, I was playing Bach's Prelude and Fugue, in G major (BWV 541). I chose a registration which I liked (and which seemed to suit the organ). What I did not know, was that David had arrived early and was listening quietly in the great Nave. When I had finished, he said "I couldn't imagine a more beautiful sound." I say this for no other reason than to illustrate the difference between the sound of the recording which Pierre posted and the registration which I chose at Romsey.

 

I realise that I have no sound-file to demonstrate - and that the Romsey organ is from another era and another style of voicing. However, I played the Prelude using both main clavier choruses (and both G.O. quint mixtures), with the Pedal flues (without the 32p wood) and the Trombone (not a particularly heavy sound).

 

We can find evidence that Bach liked colourful sounds and interesting sounds - but the sound on the recording I found to be ugly. I am sorry, Pierre, but as a practising musician of many years' experience, I cannot believe that Bach would have tolerated those sounds for that piece.

[pcnd5584]

POTSDAM

 

Johann Nicaulaus Forkel berichtet, dass Johann Sebastian Bach anlässlich seiner Reise nach Potsdam

und Berlin 1747 zu allen Potsdamer Orgeln geführt worden sei.

Alle Instrumente hatte der Silbermann-Schüler Joachim Wagner erbaut, mit dem Bach offenbar bekannt war.

(Buchstaben von mir in fett . P.L.)

Forkels Bericht stütz sich auf Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, der damals seinen Vater begleitete. Die Berliner Zeitungen berichten am Donnerstag

dem 11 Mai 1747, lediglich, dass sich Bach "Am Montage....In der Heil. Geist-Kirche zu Potsdamm auf der Orgel hören" ...

 

Pierre

 

J.N.Forkel reports that J S Bach, on the occasion of his journey to Potsdam and Berlin in 1747, was taken to all the Potsdam organs. All the instruments had been built by Silbermann’s pupil Joachim Wagner, whom Bach obviously knew. [My emphasis - P.L.] Forkel’s report relies on Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, who accompanied his father at that time. The Berlin newspapers simply report on Thursday 11 May, 1747, that Bach could be heard ‘at the organ in the Heilige Geist Kirche in Potsdam’, and won ‘general applause from the crowd of listeners present’. Whether King Frederick II, in whose evening chamber music Bach had earlier taken part, was among the listeners is not known, and rather improbable.

 

In which case Sumner was mistaken - although it would be helpful to know how 'Bach obviously knew' Wagner.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"Whilst I would agree with you Pierre, I would state that it is also necessary for the serious student of the organ works of JS Bach be able to play them. "

(Quote)

 

Well said!

 

Be sure 100 years ago, had people heard how Bach is played today,

they would have said it is absolutely ugly....What is "musical" is never

very far from "fashionable".

 

About the soundfiles now.

Whenever a soundfile is available for the public for free on a Website,

like You tube, Aeoline.de, l'Hydraule (excellent site of a friend, with

true french baroque samples I often use, for example Poitiers above),

you may place the direct link on a forum.

What you may NOT do is to upload a piece from a CD on a personal

website, and then link to it.

(I did it once, for a limited time, with authorization, on my own forum).

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

"Whilst I would agree with you Pierre, I would state that it is also necessary for the serious student of the organ works of JS Bach be able to play them. "

(Quote)

 

Well said!

 

Be sure 100 years ago, had people heard how Bach is played today,

they would have said it is absolutely ugly....What is "musical" is never

very far from "fashionable".

 

Pierre

 

Mmmm.... but this is still subjective, Pierre! We cannot know this!!

 

I cannot say with any certainty how Bach's music was played in England one hundred years ago - but I do have a fairly good idea of what many English performers did to his music even seventy or eighty years ago. I wonder whether that is the reason that so many English genuine lovers of music have virtually grown up with an in-built dislike of the organ as a serious musical instrument. To subject people to great wedges of thick diapasons, heavy reeds and little or no upper-work in often cavernous buildings is not my idea of the best way of inculcating a love of some of the most sublime music ever written.

 

It could equally be said that what is musical is also indissolubly linked with a sense of beauty. I do not believe that this ever changes. This is why so many beautiful ancient buildings, both sacred and secular, survive today - and are lovingly restored and jealously guarded by those who appreciate man-made beauty.

[pcnd5584]

About the soundfiles now.

Whenever a soundfile is available for the public for free on a Website,

like You tube, Aeoline.de, l'Hydraule (excellent site of a friend, with

true french baroque samples I often use, for example Poitiers above),

you may place the direct link on a forum.

What you may NOT do is to upload a piece from a CD on a personal

website, and then link to it.

(I did it once, for a limited time, with authorization, on my own forum).

 

Pierre

 

This I know! Which is why I declined to upload a link or a sound-file from the CD recorded on the organ of the Westerkerk, Amsterdam, by Jos Van Der Kooy!!

[Pierre Lauwers]

This I know! Which is why I declined to upload a link or a sound-file from the CD recorded on the organ of the Westerkerk, Amsterdam, by Jos Van Der Kooy!!

 

There are some here, tough (Westerkerk, not the Bach pieces, but Buxtehude, Stanley and Böhm):

 

http://www.josvanderkooy.com/cd/cd02.htm

 

(Perfect Mixtures for Buxtehude. But for Bach, I'd really like to have something else. The first who

will record the complete organ works of Bach on a selection of Wagner, Trost, Wender and the only

Scheibe we still have (Zschopau) I shall be his first customer for the completel CD collection, full price).

 

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

There are some here, tough (Westerkerk, not the Bach pieces, but Buxtehude, Stanley and Böhm):

 

http://www.josvanderkooy.com/cd/cd02.htm

 

(Perfect Mixtures for Buxtehude. But for Bach, I'd really like to have something else. The first who

will record the complete organ works of Bach on a selection of Wagner, Trost, Wender and the only

Scheibe we still have (Zschopau) I shall be his first customer for the completel CD collection, full price).

Pierre

 

Thank you for this link, Pierre.

 

It is a glorious, uplifting sound. Perhaps it is just a pity that the clips are so short. Still, I suppose that if entire tracks were uploaded as samples, people would be less inclined to purchase copies of the CD.

[pwhodges]

Pierre - this is a subjective opinion. I can quite easily state the opposite. However, from a purely musical point, my view is that tierce mixtures (in the larger works, such as the preludes, fantasias, toccatas and fugues) obscure the clarity and purity of the writing - and therefore the sound.

In The Cambridge Companion to the Organ, David Yearsley writes (p245): "...the inclusion of thirds in the Mixtures - a common feature in Thuringian organs - allows for plena that render with great clarity the dense polyphony of Bach..."

 

Unfortunately, his chapter provides no references whatever; but I find it interesting that he has a different view on the effect of the tierce sound.

 

Paul

[heva]

There are some here, tough (Westerkerk, not the Bach pieces, but Buxtehude, Stanley and Böhm):

 

http://www.josvanderkooy.com/cd/cd02.htm

 

(Perfect Mixtures for Buxtehude. But for Bach, I'd really like to have something else. The first who

will record the complete organ works of Bach on a selection of Wagner, Trost, Wender and the only

Scheibe we still have (Zschopau) I shall be his first customer for the completel CD collection, full price).

Pierre

 

There are Bach recordings on the Treutmann organ in Grauhof, if one may count this one in (more: here )

 

It's a fabulous instrument.

[pcnd5584]

In The Cambridge Companion to the Organ, David Yearsley writes (p245): "...the inclusion of thirds in the Mixtures - a common feature in Thuringian organs - allows for plena that render with great clarity the dense polyphony of Bach..."

 

Unfortunately, his chapter provides no references whatever; but I find it interesting that he has a different view on the effect of the tierce sound.

 

Paul

 

My comment arose from what my ears tell me - I cannot speak for David Yearsley. However, I can think of numerous colleagues who have a great dislike for Bach played with tierce mixtures in the chorus.

 

I would further dispute the 'great clarity' - I find, if anything, that tierce mixtures have the effect of confusing the harmonies. In this, I know that I am far from alone.

[Pierre Lauwers]

My comment arose from what my ears tell me - I cannot speak for David Yearsley. However, I can think of numerous colleagues who have a great dislike for Bach played with tierce mixtures in the chorus.

 

I would further dispute the 'great clarity' - I find, if anything, that tierce mixtures have the effect of confusing the harmonies. In this, I know that I am far from alone.

 

Interesting !

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Interesting !

 

Pierre

Why so? I can hardly speak for others (other than to state that I am far from unique in holding this view) - neither can I see the point of saying that I like something which I do not.

[pwhodges]

Why so? I can hardly speak for others (other than to state that I am far from unique in holding this view) - neither can I see the point of saying that I like something which I do not.

I am interested to get some idea whether this is simply a personal difference, or whether there are important differences in scaling and voicing that determine which view is likely to be taken of a tierce mixture.

 

Paul

[Pierre Lauwers]

Why so? I can hardly speak for others (other than to state that I am far from unique in holding this view) - neither can I see the point of saying that I like something which I do not.

 

(Besides Paul's interesting comment!)

 

Why ? Because I never mix my own likes and dislikes with the matter. The data is final,

not my tiny ego.

 

Paul, there are huge differencies between a Wagner Scharff (with 4/5') and a romantic tierce Mixture,

no doubt, but they share something like a "family feeling".

And both permitted to break down the wall between "Engchor" (Principal choruses) and "Weitchor"

(Flute choruses), and to add the reeds as well; in short, the way to the full organ was open.

Oscar Walcker pointed it out. He tried to resist to neo-baroque ideas since as early as 1920, but had

to follow, though, and built quint Mixtures.

But with as closed feets as possible without being remarked by the experts...

(First case was Rheinoldikirche Dortmund, 1919, expert Emil Rupp)

 

Pierre