40 Stop, 3 Manual Organ

[AJJ]

I have just spoken with the chap who held keys for Phil Burbeck when he re-balanced the York Tuba Mirabilis some years ago. He has also seen it and says that it is definitely not en chamade! He said that it is mitred and some pipes are hooded - but not horizontal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In the mid 70s I had a demo of the organ by the then Assistant, Geoffrey Coffin - he was improvising on the screen console at a polite mezzo forte and he suggested I pop round to the south side of the screen for a minute. As soon as I got there the improvisation revved up considerably and I found myself next to the tubes of the Tuba Mirablis - as PCND says - mitred over the edge of the screen in quite a tortuous manner. Close up the sound was pretty tortouos too!!

 

AJJ

[pcnd5584]

Thank you for that confirmation, Alastair! I was beginning to think that I was going sea-lion, or whatever it is....

 

I am glad that I was not standing there, though - it must have been the most incredible noise!

 

[pcnd5584]

A true en chamade reed pipe has no obstacle between the tongue

and your delicate ears; you enjoy the rattle fully!

Jordi Bosch did go even farther, building L-shaped windchests

so that the en chamade pipes are directly on their wind.

 

Best wishes,

Pierre

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My own chamade stop is like this - there are no boots, the blocks are inserted directly into the chest. Unfortunately, this does mean that it is a little unsteady at times. However, I would not swap it for any tuba!

[Jonathan Thorne]

Just picked up on this topic.

 

Here is my spec.

 

PEDAL

Open Diapason 16

Subbass 16

Octave 8

Bass Flute 8

Superoctave 4

Mixture IV

Ophicleide 16

Trumpet 8

 

 

POSITIVE

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Flute 4

Nazard 2 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Flageolet 2

Tierce 1 3/5

Larigot 1 1/3

Sharp Mixture IV

Cremona 8

Tremulant

 

 

GREAT

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Open Flute 8

Gamba 8

Octave 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Superoctave 2

Grave Mixture II

Mixture IV

Cornet V

Trumpet 8

 

SWELL

Chimney Flute 8

Salicional 8

Voix Celeste 8

Principal 4

Tapered Flute 4

Gemshorn 2

Mixture IV

Bassoon 16

Trumpet 8

Oboe 8

Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

What do people think?

 

J

[AJJ]

I could live with the above - except the lack of a Swell OD. This organ looks familiar - isn't it in a rather nice red and gold case on the west gallery of a large Victorian Gothic establishment in the West Midlands?

 

AJJ

[pcnd5584]

I could live with the above - except the lack of a Swell OD. This organ looks familiar - isn't it in a rather nice red and gold case on the west gallery of a large Victorian Gothic establishment in the West Midlands?

 

AJJ

 

Yes - it does look rather familiar. Is not the case also clothed in a gloriously-decorated building, originally designed by Augustus Welby Pugin....?

[Guest Cynic]

Yes - it does look rather familiar. Is not the case also clothed in a gloriously-decorated building, originally designed by Augustus Welby Pugin....?

 

 

One can always hanker after one more stop! In the case of the instrument above, the organist who designed it really wishes there had been room for a softer 16' pedal stop. It's a truly splendid organ, and it's very sad that there will be no more built by that team in the future.

[AJJ]

One can always hanker after one more stop! In the case of the instrument above, the organist who designed it really wishes there had been room for a softer 16' pedal stop. It's a truly splendid organ, and it's very sad that there will be no more built by that team in the future.

 

Is there a recording available? - I've heard such good things about the instrument but not actually ever heard it.

 

AJJ

[pcnd5584]

One can always hanker after one more stop! In the case of the instrument above, the organist who designed it really wishes there had been room for a softer 16' pedal stop. It's a truly splendid organ, and it's very sad that there will be no more built by that team in the future.

 

Indeed, Paul. I would certainly like the privilege of playing this instrument. However, since the RCO thread of a few months prviously, I fear that this is about as likely as my congregation donating a richly-deserved Contra Trombone to the Minster Pedal Organ.

 

For what it is worth, here is a slightly different design for an instrument of the size specified above:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Sub Bass (Ext.) 32

Contra Bass (M) 16

Sub Bass 16

Violoncello 8

Flute 8

Super Octave 4

Grand Bombarde 16

Trumpet 8

Great to Pedal

Choir to Pedal

Choir Octave to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

 

GREAT ORGAN (I)

 

Contra Viola 16

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Cone Gamba 8

Octave 4

Wald Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Cornet (1-8-12-15-17: TG) V

Bassoon 16

Harmonic Trumpet 8

Harmonic Clarion 4

Reeds on Pedal

Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Swell Sub Octave to Great

 

CHOIR ORGAN (II)

 

Stopped Diapason 8

Salicional 8

Principal 4

Nason Flute 4

Flageolet 2

Sesquialtera (12-17) II

Mixture (22-26-29) III

Cremona 8

Tremulant

Sub Octave

Swell to Choir

 

SWELL ORGAN (III)

 

Open Diapason 8

Flauto Traverso 8

Viole de Gambe 8

Voix Célestes (AA) 8

Geigen Principal 4

Octavin 2

Cornet (17-19-22) III

Hautbois 8

Voix Humaine 8

Trumpet 8

Tremulant

Sub Octave

 

Electro-pneumatic action.

[pcnd5584]

Hmm...

 

I prescribe Tromba and Harmonics on the Great, and a ped Violone 16' to replace the Bombarde. But the first step must be to get rid of the horizontal reed... Can any one direct me to an example which edifies a UK instrument?

 

I have just noticed your post. Yes, I can.

 

I am aware that many do not like the example on my own church instrument, so I shall not suggest that as a possibility - despite the fact that I like it very much.

 

However, try the Ulster Hall, Belfast, Dunster Parish Church* (Somerset), The Bute Hall (University of Glasgow), Usk Parish Church (Monmouthshire), Cirencester Parish Church, Saint John's College Chapel (Cambridge), Ripon Cathedral (Solo Orchestral Trumpet, H&H, 1996)....

 

I have played the vintage H&H at Crediton Parish Church many times (both before and after its recent restoration) and I have also heard a recent, high-quality recording of this instrument. I can confidently say that any one of the instruments above possesses a solo reed of infinitely greater musicality and capable of far wider use than the perfectly hideous Trombe ranks on the Crediton organ.

 

I would suggest that you go and hear (and play) the Crediton organ, Goldsmith. I doubt that you will advocate such stops as these once you have. That is, unless you like a very loud wall of sound, utterly devoid of harmonic development, with a mixture whose sole function is to attempt to alleviate the basically flawed design of the GO reeds. These stops are the fattest, most uncouth sound which I have ever heard on a British organ.

 

I realise that this post expresses a strong opinion. However, I have refrained from responding on many previous occasions when horizontal reeds were disparaged. This time, I was unable to remain silent!

 

 

 

 

* In the case of this instrument, the horizontal reed is the GO chorus reed, together with its octave extension. However, this rank does have a dual function, also making an effective dominant solo reed.

[AJJ]

 

For what it is worth, here is a slightly different design for an instrument of the size specified above:

 

PEDAL ORGAN

 

Sub Bass (Ext.) 32

Contra Bass (M) 16

Sub Bass 16

Violoncello 8

Flute 8

Super Octave 4

Grand Bombarde 16

Trumpet 8

Great to Pedal

Choir to Pedal

Choir Octave to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

 

GREAT ORGAN (I)

 

Contra Viola 16

Bourdon 16

Open Diapason 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Harmonic Flute 8

Cone Gamba 8

Octave 4

Wald Flute 4

Fifteenth 2

Mixture (15-19-22-26-29) V

Cornet (1-8-12-15-17: TG) V

Bassoon 16

Harmonic Trumpet 8

Harmonic Clarion 4

Reeds on Pedal

Reeds on Choir

Choir to Great

Swell to Great

Swell Sub Octave to Great

 

CHOIR ORGAN (II)

 

Stopped Diapason 8

Salicional 8

Principal 4

Nason Flute 4

Flageolet 2

Sesquialtera (12-17) II

Mixture (22-26-29) III

Cremona 8

Tremulant

Sub Octave

Swell to Choir

 

SWELL ORGAN (III)

 

Open Diapason 8

Flauto Traverso 8

Viole de Gambe 8

Voix Célestes (AA) 8

Geigen Principal 4

Octavin 2

Cornet (17-19-22) III

Hautbois 8

Voix Humaine 8

Trumpet 8

Tremulant

Sub Octave

 

Electro-pneumatic action.

 

Nice one pc - you haven't by any chance been doing a stint at Southwark Cathedral recently have you? The above is looking distictly TC Lewis!! All you need is a few Lieblichs.....

 

AJJ

[pcnd5584]

Nice one pc - you haven't by any chance been doing a stint at Southwark Cathedral recently have you? The above is looking distictly TC Lewis!! All you need is a few Leiblichs.....

 

AJJ

 

Thank you, Alastair!

 

I must confess that it was in my mind - I think that the Southwark instrument is superb!

[Dulciana]

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you see as the use for the choir octave to pedal coupler in this particular scheme?

[pcnd5584]

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you see as the use for the choir octave to pedal coupler in this particular scheme?

 

No, a fair question. My point in providing this coupler was to make available a quiet 4p reed on the Pedal Organ; its use would be, for example, in the playing of certain chorale preludes. I wished also to keep within the bounds of the forty-stop limit.

[Dulciana]

No, a fair question. My point in providing this coupler was to make available a quiet 4p reed on the Pedal Organ; its use would be, for example, in the playing of certain chorale preludes. I wished also to keep within the bounds of the forty-stop limit.

 

Good point. Thanks.

[contrabordun]

This organ looks familiar

Does sound rather like the one I heard Paul Carr playing the Dupré B major on last summer. Unfortunately I couldn't stay for all of it because there was this girl next to me dressed in white who wanted me to come outside and have my picture taken.

[jfdg]

My suggestion for such an organ:

 

Pedal

Open Diapason 16

Violone 16

Bourdon 16

Principal 8

Bass Flute 8

Octave Flute 4

Contra Bombarde 32

Bombarde 16

 

Choir

Stopped Diapason 8

Viola 8

Flute 4

Gemshorn 4

Nazard 2 2/3

Wald Flute 2

Tierce 1 3/5

Corno de Basetto 8

Orchestral Oboe 8

Tuba 8 (or other loud solo reed)

+octave, suboctave, unison off; Sw/Ch, Ch/Ped

 

Great

Double Diapason 16

Open Diapason I 8

Open Diapason II 8

Stopped Diapason 8

Principal 4

Harmonic Flute 4

Twelfth 2 2/3

Fifteenth 2

Mixture IV

Trumpet 8

Sw/Gt, Ch/Gt, Gt/Ped

 

Swell

Open Diapason 8

Rohr Gedackt 8

Salicional 8

Voix Celeste 8

Principal 4

Nason Flute 4

Flageolet 2

Mixture IV

Contra Fagotto 16

Cornopean 8

Hautboy 8

Clarion 4

+octave, suboctave, unison off, Sw/Ped

[Jonathan Thorne]

Is there a recording available? - I've heard such good things about the instrument but not actually ever heard it.

 

AJJ

 

Yes there is! I made an improvisation disc. Let me know if you are interested in a copy.

 

All best

 

JT

[Paul Carr]

Is there a recording available? - I've heard such good things about the instrument but not actually ever heard it.

 

AJJ

 

Yes, David Saint and Henry Fairs recorded in July 1998 on SYRINX RECORDS (Leominster) S21798.

It's excellent - David plays Bach: Fantasia in C (BWV 530) Trio Sonata 6 and Clérambault: Suite du deuxième ton - Henry gives a stunning performance of Duruflé: Suite and they both perform Langlais: Double Fantasie.

 

It shows the organ off well - the instrument really is a gem, the best 'just 40 stops' I know. It probably wouldn't be the best vehicle for a Choral Evensong, but then it doesn't need to be! The scalings are quite big generally and it is very loud in the loft... It has just the right sound for Romantic French repertoire. David Briggs' transcription of Daphnis et Chloé 2nd Orchestral Suite sounds just amazing there.

 

If you want to hear it live this year's recital series is: Mon 11th June 7.30pm Stuart Nicholson; Wed 20th June Douglas Hollick (Buxtehude tercentenary celebration) and David Saint playing Bach, Howells and Demessieux, etc. on Wed 27th June, 7.30pm.

[David Coram]

My own chamade stop is like this - there are no boots, the blocks are inserted directly into the chest. Unfortunately, this does mean that it is a little unsteady at times. However, I would not swap it for any tuba!

 

Building the blocks straight into the chest shouldn't make it unsteady - there's probably another problem with the fairly tortuous winding. Mine is done the same way as yours. I have just returned from seeing several Metzler organs where all reed stops on the organ are built into a common block which sits directly on the upperboard.

[innate]

As I had a spare 20 minutes this morning I thought up this:

 

 

GREAT

1 Bourdon 16

2 Open Diapason 8

3 Gamba 8

4 Harmonic Flute 8

5 Stopped Diapason 8

6 Principal 4

7 Clear Flute 4

8 Twelfth 2 2/3

9 Fifteenth 2

10 Fourniture V 1 1/3

11 Trumpet (en chamade) 8

Sw/Gt

Ch/Gt

 

SWELL (enclosed)

12 Salicional 8

13 Gedackt 8

14 Voix Celeste TC 8

15 Gemshorn 4

16 Fifteenth 2

17 Mixture IV 1

18 Fagotto 16

19 Trumpet 8

20 Oboe 8

21 Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

CHOIR (unenclosed)

22 Open Diapason 8

23 Chimney Flute 8

24 Principal 4

25 Recorder 4

26 Nazard 2 2/3

27 Flute 2

28 Tierce 1 3/5

29 Mixture III 2

30 Cymbal II 1/2

31 Cromorne 16

Sw/Ch

Tremulant

 

PEDAL

32 Open Wood 16

33 Subbass 16

34 Quint 10 2/3

35 Octave 8

36 Flute 8

37 Flute 4

38 Fourniture 2 2/3

39 Trombone 16

40 Cornet (reed) 4

Sw/Ped

Gt/Ped

Ch/Ped

 

Manuals: 61 notes; Pedal: 32 notes

 

Mechanical action

 

I really wanted a proper Cornet V on the great; maybe ditch the 2 2/3, make the Fourniture 2 2/3 instead and there's room. A chorus reed on the choir would be good too, maybe instead of the Cymbal.

 

I know the Cromorne shouldn't be in the same division as the Cornet séparé but tough!

 

I very much like the possibilities of the C-C jeux de fonds on the Great. IMO this more than compensates for the lack of an OD on the swell and a Dulciana on the choir.

 

Maybe the Choir should be enclosed, perhaps in an Oberwerk position.

 

It would be clever if the great reed could be duplexed on the choir but I know there are technical issues with duplexing reeds with tracker action.

[Guest Cynic]

As I had a spare 20 minutes this morning I thought up this:

 

 

GREAT

1 Bourdon 16

2 Open Diapason 8

3 Gamba 8

4 Harmonic Flute 8

5 Stopped Diapason 8

6 Principal 4

7 Clear Flute 4

8 Twelfth 2 2/3

9 Fifteenth 2

10 Fourniture V 1 1/3

11 Trumpet (en chamade) 8

Sw/Gt

Ch/Gt

 

SWELL (enclosed)

12 Salicional 8

13 Gedackt 8

14 Voix Celeste TC 8

15 Gemshorn 4

16 Fifteenth 2

17 Mixture IV 1

18 Fagotto 16

19 Trumpet 8

20 Oboe 8

21 Clarion 4

Tremulant

 

CHOIR (unenclosed)

22 Open Diapason 8

23 Chimney Flute 8

24 Principal 4

25 Recorder 4

26 Nazard 2 2/3

27 Flute 2

28 Tierce 1 3/5

29 Mixture III 2

30 Cymbal II 1/2

31 Cromorne 16

Sw/Ch

Tremulant

 

PEDAL

32 Open Wood 16

33 Subbass 16

34 Quint 10 2/3

35 Octave 8

36 Flute 8

37 Flute 4

38 Fourniture 2 2/3

39 Trombone 16

40 Cornet (reed) 4

Sw/Ped

Gt/Ped

Ch/Ped

 

Manuals: 61 notes; Pedal: 32 notes

 

Mechanical action

 

I really wanted a proper Cornet V on the great; maybe ditch the 2 2/3, make the Fourniture 2 2/3 instead and there's room. A chorus reed on the choir would be good too, maybe instead of the Cymbal.

 

I know the Cromorne shouldn't be in the same division as the Cornet séparé but tough!

 

I very much like the possibilities of the C-C jeux de fonds on the Great. IMO this more than compensates for the lack of an OD on the swell and a Dulciana on the choir.

 

Maybe the Choir should be enclosed, perhaps in an Oberwerk position.

 

It would be clever if the great reed could be duplexed on the choir but I know there are technical issues with duplexing reeds with tracker action.

 

 

A very good scheme IMHO - my only quibbles would be having a 16' rather than the much more useful and usual 8' Cromorne and I don't think I would draw the Choir Cymbal much. So many of these seem to be the aural equivalent of a pin cushion! If you're designing for somewhere with money and space - why not have a real 32' flue instead of the 10.2/3? A Subbass 32 is not terribly pricey - the new one Nicholsons made a few years ago for St.Lawrence's Ludlow made an appreciable improvement to the whole organ.

[pcnd5584]

Yes, this is quite a good scheme. I would prefer the Open Diapason to be on the Swell, as opposed to on the Choir. Like Cynic, I would also prefer the Cromorne to be at 8p pitch. I would probably have a chorus reed on the soundboard for the GO, instead of en chamade.

 

I would be interested to know how much Nicholsons charged for the 32p Sub Bass at Ludlow. This is something which I am currently considering for the Minster organ (as part of the rebuild).

 

Building the blocks straight into the chest shouldn't make it unsteady - there's probably another problem with the fairly tortuous winding. Mine is done the same way as yours. I have just returned from seeing several Metzler organs where all reed stops on the organ are built into a common block which sits directly on the upperboard.

 

Perhaps it depends on the type of reed (and the thinness of the tongues). The winding is not that tortuous - the flexible trunking is at least secured at regular intervals.

 

What were the Metzler reeds like, David?

 

Good to see you back again.

 

Incidentally, we need to agree on another date for the next joint choirs service. DG suggests the first (or second Sunday in July) - can you let me know, please?

 

(I will send you a PM with further details, later.)

[Vox Humana]

But the first step must be to get rid of the horizontal reed... Can any one direct me to an example which edifies a UK instrument?

New College, Oxford. I played this instrument the other day and thought the chamade quite superb: brazen but not at all raucous. On this organ it's the Great Trompete that sounds like a goat in agony.

[pcnd5584]

From an earlier post, which I wrote last week:

 

I have just noticed your post. Yes, I can.

 

I am aware that many do not like the example on my own church instrument, so I shall not suggest that as a possibility - despite the fact that I like it very much.

 

However, try the Ulster Hall, Belfast, Dunster Parish Church* (Somerset), The Bute Hall (University of Glasgow), Usk Parish Church (Monmouthshire), Cirencester Parish Church, Saint John's College Chapel (Cambridge), Ripon Cathedral (Solo Orchestral Trumpet, H&H, 1996)....

 

I have played the vintage H&H at Crediton Parish Church many times (both before and after its recent restoration) and I have also heard a recent, high-quality recording of this instrument. I can confidently say that any one of the instruments above possesses a solo reed of infinitely greater musicality and capable of far wider use than the perfectly hideous Trombe ranks on the Crediton organ.

 

I would suggest that you go and hear (and play) the Crediton organ, Goldsmith. I doubt that you will advocate such stops as these once you have. That is, unless you like a very loud wall of sound, utterly devoid of harmonic development, with a mixture whose sole function is to attempt to alleviate the basically flawed design of the GO reeds. These stops are the fattest, most uncouth sound which I have ever heard on a British organ.

 

I realise that this post expresses a strong opinion. However, I have refrained from responding on many previous occasions when horizontal reeds were disparaged. This time, I was unable to remain silent!

 

 

 

* In the case of this instrument, the horizontal reed is the GO chorus reed, together with its octave extension. However, this rank does have a dual function, also making an effective dominant solo reed.