40 Stop, 3 Manual Organ

[pcnd5584]

Here is my spec:

 

Great Organ

1 Double Open Diapason 16 A

2 LGE Open Diapason 8

3 SML Open Diapason 8

4 Clarabella 8

5 Principal 4

6 Wald Flute 4

7 Twelfth 2 2/3

8 Fifteenth 2

9 Mixture III (17.19.22)

10 Tromba 8

Swell to Great

Swell Super Oct to Great

Swell Sub Oct to Great

Choir to Great

 

Swell Organ

11 Lieblich Bourdon 16 B

12 Violin Diapason 8

13 Rohr Flote 8

14 Salicional 8

15 Voix Celeste 8 T.C.

16 Gemshorn 4

17 Lieblich Flote 4

18 Fifteenth 2

19 Mixture III (15.19.22)

20 Contra Fagotto 16

21 Horn 8

22 Oboe 8

23 Vox Humana 8

24 Clarion 4

Tremulant

Octave

Sub Octave

 

Choir Organ

25 Lieblich Gedackt 8

26 Dulciana 8

27 Vox Angelica 8 T.C. or Gamba 8

28 Harmonic Flute 4

29 Piccolo 2

30 Clarinet 8

Tremulant

Swell to Choir

 

Pedal Organ

31 Contra Bourdon 32 C

32 Open Diapason Wood 16 D

33 Violone 16 A

34 Bourdon 16 C

35 Echo Bourdon 16 B

36 Principal 8 D

37 Bass Flute 8 C

38 Contra Posaune 32 E

39 Trombone 16 E

40 Trumpet 8 E

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Choir to Pedal

 

Pressure-Pneumatic Action

 

4 Composition Pedals to Pedal & Great

5 Composition Pedals to Swell

4 Thumb Pistons to Choir

4 Thumb Pistons to Great & Pedal

5 Thumb Pistons to Swell

Reversible Thumb Pistons & Pedals to Sw to Gt & Gt to Ped

 

I had thought about adding a Solo with Harm. Claribel 8, flute 4 & Tuba 8 but ran out of stops, but I think that the Tromba could be voiced to be used as a chorus reed & a solo reed, possibly on a higher pressure.

 

JA

 

An interesting Romantic scheme - on paper there looks to be the potential for plenty of tonal variety and colour.

 

Since you have specified a Tromba on the G.O., why not simply make it available on the Choir Organ - this is somewhat cheaper than the expense of a fourth clavier. However, I would suggest that the Tromba be voiced brighter than might be expected with such stops. The Harrison-style ranks of this name have limited musical use.

 

I would probably omit the 32p reed - unless the building which you have in mind for this instrument is large (and perhaps with some resonance), the effect may be too heavy.

 

I further note that the Pedal Principal is extended from the Open Diapason Wood; as such, it may be more helpful to call it an Octave Wood. I suspect that this stop may 'woof' unhelpfully - just like the 'survivor' at Exeter Cathedral. The late Graham Steed once used this (together with one or two 16p basses) in order to announce the theme of JSB's Passacaglia, in C minor. The effect was less than edifying.

 

 

[Guest Patrick Coleman]

Here is my spec:

 

 

I had thought about adding a Solo with Harm. Claribel 8, flute 4 & Tuba 8 but ran out of stops, but I think that the Tromba could be voiced to be used as a chorus reed & a solo reed, possibly on a higher pressure.

 

JA

 

This is almost exactly the same as the original spec of our Vowles at Abertillery (and not much different from now!) We have added a solo hooded Trumpet that sits behind the display pipes and is directed down the nave. Wondering why you need the 32' reed on the pedal? Would it not make more sense to have two contrasting 16' ones?

[gazman]

Here is my spec:

 

Great Organ

1 Double Open Diapason 16 A

2 LGE Open Diapason 8

3 SML Open Diapason 8

4 Clarabella 8

5 Principal 4

6 Wald Flute 4

7 Twelfth 2 2/3

8 Fifteenth 2

9 Mixture III (17.19.22)

10 Tromba 8

 

JA

 

Interesting spec. I wonder what it would sound like!

 

I find it useful to have an accompanimental stop on each manual, in order to accompany solo stops on other departments. I wonder if the Clarabella might not be effective in this capacity, and wonder if one of the Diapasons (or the 32' reed) might be omitted in favour of a Dulciana or a Stopped Diapason on the Great.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"The Harrison-style ranks of this name have limited musical use."

(Quote)

 

This is legitimate as an opinion; as such, others opinions may differ.

I would rather question the Swell Horn, which I understand as a closed tone stop

(but I way be wrong!) as a 8' chorus reed with Fagotto and Clarion; if we have

closed toned chorus reeds on the Great, we need bright tone on the Swell.

 

A Dulciana on the Great must be seen as the softest of the several Diapasons;

therefore, according to the acoustics, we may have an O.D. III, for instance,

rather close to a Dulciana.

Let's suppose we need two consistent Open Diapasons here; I would not, then,

trade in one of them for a Dulciana.

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

However, I would suggest that the Tromba be voiced brighter than might be expected with such stops. The Harrison-style ranks of this name have limited musical use.

I agree that Trombas are indeed rather limited tonally and it would not be my choice - but then, neither would this style of organ be my choice. On its own terms, however, it seems fine to me. The specification is of course uncompromisingly Romantic. It is not going to be effective with anything other than Romantic music in "Anglican" style (for want of a better word). Even the French Romantics are not going to sound remotely French. So flexibility is hardly an issue. A Tromba is well "in style" here IMO. If you want an organ with more flexibility in order, say, to handle more of the repertoire, you'd probably be wanting to start again from scratch, changing a lot more than just the Tromba.

 

Having said that, a brighter reed such as a Trumpet would at least enable you to get away with some French music, whereas the lack of "bite" in a true Tromba tends to make that repertoire sound gutless.

 

It all depends on what you want to play, doesn't it? Nothing wrong with a good old "English" Romantic organ if that's the sort of music you want to play.

[pcnd5584]

Some good points, Vox.

 

To be honest, it is not quite my ideal instrument either. I do like a variety of tone-colours, particularly at 8p pitch; but I also require good, honest choruses, on which I can play a wide variety of music.

 

In so far as the reeds are concerned, I doubt that it would be a surprise to most board contributors that I favour French-style stops - or at least bright ranks, wihich possess a good attack.

[pcnd5584]

Post edited.

 

Think I pressed the wrong botton....

[Vox Humana]

Post edited. Didn't press the right button in time!

[pcnd5584]

"The Harrison-style ranks of this name have limited musical use."

(Quote)

 

This is legitimate as an opinion; as such, others opinions may differ.

I would rather question the Swell Horn, which I understand as a closed tone stop

(but I way be wrong!) as a 8' chorus reed with Fagotto and Clarion; if we have

closed toned chorus reeds on the Great, we need bright tone on the Swell.

 

Not always, Pierre. Hill often used this name as an alternative to a Cornopean for his Swell 8p reeds. The example at Shrewsbury Abbey was not particularly close-toned; just a useful, ordinary Swell unison reed. (Whilst this stop was added in 1945, such a rank was specified and prepared-for at the time of the 1911 rebuild by Wm. Hill & Son.)

 

A Dulciana on the Great must be seen as the softest of the several Diapasons;

therefore, according to the acoustics, we may have an O.D. III, for instance,

rather close to a Dulciana.

Let's suppose we need two consistent Open Diapasons here; I would not, then,

trade in one of them for a Dulciana.

 

Pierre

 

Huzzah! I agree, Pierre!!

[pcnd5584]

Post edited. Didn't press the right button in time!

 

Oh, good. Then I am not the only one.

 

[JWAnderson]

An interesting Romantic scheme - on paper there looks to be the potential for plenty of tonal variety and colour.

 

Since you have specified a Tromba on the G.O., why not simply make it available on the Choir Organ - this is somewhat cheaper than the expense of a fourth clavier. However, I would suggest that the Tromba be voiced brighter than might be expected with such stops. The Harrison-style ranks of this name have limited musical use.

 

I would probably omit the 32p reed - unless the building which you have in mind for this instrument is large (and perhaps with some resonance), the effect may be too heavy.

 

I further note that the Pedal Principal is extended from the Open Diapason Wood; as such, it may be more helpful to call it an Octave Wood. I suspect that this stop may 'woof' unhelpfully - just like the 'survivor' at Exeter Cathedral. The late Graham Steed once used this (together with one or two 16p basses) in order to announce the theme of JSB's Passacaglia, in C minor. The effect was less than edifying.

 

Yes the Tromba could be available on the Choir, but this would mean changing the pneumatic action to electro-pneu. but I for some reason prefer pneumatics than electronic actions. I had chosen a Tromba because I had heard a really brilliant one in June. It was either a Bishop or most probably Norman & Beard from when they rebuilt the organ in 1912. A solo division would be possible on electric action. The HN&B organ at Christchurch Cathedral NZ has only a three manual console but a Solo organ is available on the Choir manual. Obviously this would have some effects but it still works.

 

The 32' Posaune would be able to be changed to a Fagotto 16, borrowed from the Sw but this would be possible with pneu. action.

 

About the Ped. Principal 8, I was planning to have that stop in a Brindley & Foster style with notes 1-12 made from Wood and then 13-30 in Metal.... I think that's how they did it??

 

I don't think I would add a Dulciana on the Great, since the clarabella would be quite capable of accompanying the solo voices.

 

JA

[Tony Newnham]

Yes the Tromba could be available on the Choir, but this would mean changing the pneumatic action to electro-pneu.

JA

 

Hi

 

Not necessarily - I've seen a trumpet extended 16-8-4 & duplexed to pedals at 8ft all in pneumatic action (via a pneumatic relay) - and that was in an organ where everything else, including a Nave Department, was tracker. It wasn't working at the time - the relays had been taken out of use and the stop was only available at 8ft on the Swell (and didn't work even then because the leather had disintegrated).

 

Having said that, if tracker isn't an option, I would go for electro-pneumatic action rather than full pneumatic any day.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

[JWAnderson]

Hi

 

Not necessarily - I've seen a trumpet extended 16-8-4 & duplexed to pedals at 8ft all in pneumatic action (via a pneumatic relay) - and that was in an organ where everything else, including a Nave Department, was tracker. It wasn't working at the time - the relays had been taken out of use and the stop was only available at 8ft on the Swell (and didn't work even then because the leather had disintegrated).

 

Having said that, if tracker isn't an option, I would go for electro-pneumatic action rather than full pneumatic any day.

 

Every Blessing

 

Tony

 

Yes Tony, you would be right about this although I have never seen any examples of this.

But I suppose if they can extend the pedal stops, then they can definately do this on the manuals and borrow at the same time.

Tracker would possibly be an option on this, but one thing I would want to avoid would be a heavy action.

 

JA

[Vox Humana]

I've revised my scheme slightly. I don't pretend to know anything about organ design so any comments would be welcome. I know the amount of borrowing on the Pedal is not ideal.

 

Great

1. Bourdon 16

2. Open Diapason I 8

3. Open Diapason II 8

4. Stopped Diapason 8

5. Principal 4

6. Nason Flute 4

7. Fifteenth 2

8. Sesquialtera (12.17)

9. Mixture (19.22.26.29) IV

10. Trumpet 8

11. Clarion 4

32a. Imperial Trumpet (Pos.) 8

Swell to Great

Positive to Great

Swell

12. Geigen Diapason 8

13. Bourdon 8

14. Salicional 8

15. Voix Céleste 8

16. Octave Geigen 4

17. Suabe Flute 4

18. Octavin 2

19. Mixture (19.22.26.29) IV

20. Basson 16

21. Trompette 8

22. Hautbois 8

23. Voix Humaine 8

24. Clairon 4

Tremulant

 

Positive (Clarinet enclosed)

25. Chimney Flute 8

26. Gamba 8

27. Spindle Flute 4

28. Nazard 2²/₃

29. Recorder 2

30. Tierce 1³/₅

31. Clarinet 8

Tremulant

22a. Voix Humaine (Sw.) 8

32. Imperial Trumpet 8

Swell to Positive

Pedal

33. Sub Bourdon 32

34. Open Metal 16

35. Sub Bass 16

1a. Bourdon (Gt.) 16

36. Principal 8

37. Flute 8

38. Principal 4

39. Bombarde 32

40. Trombone 16

19a. Basson (Sw.) 16

9a. Trumpet (Gt.) 8

19b. Basson (Sw.) 8

9b. Clarion (Gt) 4

19c. Basson (sw.) 4

Great to Pedal

Swell to Pedal

Positive to Pedal

Accessories

Great & Ped Combs Coupled

Generals on Sw. toe pistons

8 General thumb pistons

6 thumb pistons for Gt.

8 thumb pistons for Sw.

6 thumb pistons for Pos.

6 toe pistons for Ped.

8 toe pistons for Sw./Gen.

Reversible thumb piston for each coupler

Reversible toe piston for Sub Bourdon 32

Reversible toe piston for Bombarde 32

 

The mixture of languages should be taken with a pinch of salt; it is not meant to denote out-and-out eclecticism, merely tonal tendencies.

 

As I mentioned before, the Vox Humana would be voiced so that the treble can pass muster as an Orchestral Oboe, though it would perforce have to be a fairly keen one.

[Pierre Lauwers]

-Geigen and Salicional on the Swell are very similar;

 

-Swell Mixture is the same as the one on the great.

Since you won't make a good Diapason chorus with it

with 8' and 4', anyway, I'd trade it for a 17-19-22

going with the reed chorus (Full Swell).

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

-Geigen and Salicional on the Swell are very similar;

 

-Swell Mixture is the same as the one on the great.

Since you won't make a good Diapason chorus with it

with 8' and 4', anyway, I'd trade it for a 17-19-22

going with the reed chorus (Full Swell).

 

Pierre

 

I would agree with the second point - but not the first.

 

Pierre, on an English organ, a Geigen Diapason would be of a reasonable volume, but with a stringy 'edge' to the tone (obviously, stops will vary from builder to builder). However, the Salicional would be a very quiet mild string - almost like a Dulciana which was not trying to be an echo diapason. There would certainly be enough difference in timbre and output to warrant the inclusion of both ranks.

 

With regard to the first point - I would agree that the mixture intervals could be altered. However, I am not convinced about your suggestion of a 17-19-22 mixture. Last Saturday, I played the organ of Salisbury Cathedral for Evensong. I know the instrument reasonably well, having played several services on it (and a recital), since 1988. The Swell Mixture is as you have recommended (17-19-22). I found that, used before the reeds, it was fairly unpleasant. However, with the reeds, it was barely audible - and therefore not particularly useful.

 

There are many good points about this instrument; for example, I like the wealth of flutes and strings (those on the Solo being the best which I have yet played). The Pedal Organ is good. I like the diapason choruses up to 2p. I also like the quiet solo reeds (with the possible exception of the Solo Cor Anglais, which I found a little acidic). The chorus reeds of the Swell and G.O. are good, general English trumpets. However, I am convinced that it is the upper-work which lets this instrument down. There is simply not enough true brilliance or life to this vital part of the choruses. The tutti is utterly reed-dominated (even without the hideously loud Tuba and Tuba Clarion) and, as such, the sound is weighty but a little dull. I longed for a couple of decent quint mixtures, to give true brilliance - and to make the sound less reed-heavy. I would also prefer a chorus mixture on the Choir Organ, instead of the Trumpet. In any case, this latter stop was not part of the original scheme as realised by 'Father' Willis, but was added (along witht the Open Diapason, Nazard and Tierce) to the Choir Organ, in 1934.

 

I had occasion to play this instrument two or three years ago, when some work was being carried out on the high pressure reservoirs. This meant that the Pedal and G.O. reeds and the Tuba and Tuba Clarion were all unavailable. The result was a revelation - this organ is nothing without its reeds! The quiet stops were still lovely, but there was no excitement or thrill. It relies so much upon the G.O. and Pedal chorus reeds for big effects, that , without them, the vigour of the instrument is greatly compromised.

[Pierre Lauwers]

Interesting comments, Pcnd,

 

However:

"The Swell Mixture is as you have recommended (17-19-22). I found that, used before the reeds, it was fairly unpleasant. However, with the reeds, it was barely audible - and therefore not particularly useful."

(Quote)

 

....In this we shall never agree; to me, a Mixture isn't intended to be heard, it is a corroborating device

(in this case, a Full-Swell also). Of course, it should never be drawn before the reeds!

 

A broader question is: is any enclosed Diapason chorus a good idea ? A thick box implies you have

to voice Principals after a rather unhortodox way in order to get anything Diapason-like outside

that box.

Dulcianas do better -provided you use them in a thin box, which means, on a division without loud reeds,

the choir also- best compromise to have a secondary Diapason chorus in a modern organ (i.e. with all

manuals, save Great and pedal, enclosed).

 

As for reed-heavy, lack of brillance, etc, did yo ever hear such things like a true Clicquot or a J. Wagner ?

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Interesting comments, Pcnd,

 

However:

"The Swell Mixture is as you have recommended (17-19-22). I found that, used before the reeds, it was fairly unpleasant. However, with the reeds, it was barely audible - and therefore not particularly useful."

(Quote)

 

....In this we shall never agree; to me, a Mixture isn't intended to be heard, it is a corroborating device

(in this case, a Full-Swell also). Of course, it should never be drawn before the reeds!

 

 

Pierre

 

Pierre - if a mixture is unable to stand without the reeds, then it is of very limited use. Of course a Mixture is intended to be heard! There are quiet examples which are used to enhance certain combinations; however, the Salisbury organ has a large Swell division (and is situated in a huge building). Since this is the only compound stop in the Swell, it needs to have a rather greater effect.

 

Clicquot organs - Poitiers, for example - in addition to very bright reeds (whic are themselves the very antithesis of the style of voicing of the reeds at Salisbury), there are multiple ranks of quint mixtures (I believe a V-rank Plein-Jeu on the Positif and a VI-rank Plein-Jeu on the G.O.) The effect is entirely different from that at Salisbury.

[Pierre Lauwers]

So let us hear Poitiers then:

 

http://perso.orange.fr/organ-au-logis/Musi...03GrignyVC1.mp3

 

(Aaaaaah, Nicolas de Grigny....Far away from any preconceptions about "light" french music, this

is really major "repertoire"!)

 

Do you really hear the Mixtures there ? No, rather an immense, dignified chorus, that is, an ensemble

in which all parts, from the 16' up to the Cymbale, dissepear in favor of the whole, like the bricks in a wall,

the aim is the wall (to make the best swellboxes, for example) not the bricks.

 

Those mixtures at Poitiers are about two times less powerfull than average neo-baroque stops.

 

Romantic tierce Mixtures like the quite typical 17-19-22 are intended to corroborate and imitate

reed tone. Why ? Just because reeds are weaker in the treble -especially the open shallots type-

and need reinforcing there.

The very idea exists in the classical french organ with the "Grand-jeu", Reeds+ Cornets also:

 

http://perso.orange.fr/organ-au-logis/Musi...ndJBextrait.mp3

 

(St-Nicolas des champs Clicquot organ).

 

It was this very "Grand-jeu" 18th century german Masters organ builders like Joachim Wagner started

to melt with the Diapason chorus. (by the way, the british builders did the same, encouraged by the

strange, exotic mixtures of a Schnetzler...Euh, Snetzler).

 

Mixtures as a color for themselves, this was Ernest Skinner's idea....Followed by about everybody

up to about 1980.

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

Romantic tierce Mixtures like the quite typical 17-19-22 are intended to corroborate and imitate

reed tone. Why ? Just because reeds are weaker in the treble -especially the open shallots type-

and need reinforcing there.

 

 

Pierre

 

A quick reply (the bell for the end of break has just sounded....)

 

I cannot download the sound-files until I get home - most things are blocked here.

 

However, with regard to your comment above, I have yet to meet a 'Willis' chorus reed which has a weak treble. As you are no doubt aware, FHW (and many others since) avoided this problem, not with corroborating mixtures (actually it was a cornet, usually of 1-8-12-15-17, which was employed to bolster the trebles in French organs), but with higher pressures.

 

Chorus reeds by FHW simply have no need of mixtures to re-inforce the tone!

 

More later....

[AJJ]

One of the churches I play at has an 1890s 2 man with a III rank 17.19.22. on the Great but no Great reed. (The Swell has no mixture but an 8' Trumpet along with 8', 4' & 2' diapasons etc..) The mixture sits (to my ears anyway) very uneasily on the Great diapason chorus - almost like just pulling out a plain Twelfth and Tierce. How does this fit in with all the above?

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

One of the churches I play at has an 1890s 2 man with a III rank 17.19.22. on the Great but no Great reed. (The Swell has no mixture but an 8' Trumpet along with 8', 4' & 2' diapasons etc..) The mixture sits (to my ears anyway) very uneasily on the Great diapason chorus - almost like just pulling out a plain Twelfth and Tierce. How does this fit in with all the above?

 

AJJ

 

With the coupler, exactly like in many belgian romantic organs.

When there are two manuals and just one Mixture, this one is the

very last thing to drawn, with the manuals coupled.

A romantic organ is designed as a whole, like a huge clavier which

would be divided afterwards, and not like several instruments which

would be united afterwards, like a baroque organ.

In a two manual romantic organ, the place of the Mixture -in the enclosed

manual or on the Great- is decided according to the acoustics of the room,

nothing else.

 

Pierre

[AJJ]

With the coupler, exactly like in many belgian romantic organs.

When there are two manuals and just one Mixture, this one is the

very last thing to drawn, with the manuals coupled.

A romantic organ is designed as a whole, like a huge clavier which

would be divided afterwards, and not like several instruments which

would be united afterwards, like a baroque organ.

In a two manual romantic organ, the place of the Mixture -in the enclosed

manual or on the Great- is decided according to the acoustics of the room,

nothing else.

 

Pierre

 

Ah - it becomes clearer - thanks Pierre - I will re think registration there accordingly!

 

AJJ

[Pierre Lauwers]

Ah - it becomes clearer - thanks Pierre - I will re think registration there accordingly!

 

AJJ

 

Give it a try, and let us here know!

 

Pierre

[Guest Psalm 78 v.67]

.....even without the hideously loud Tuba and Tuba Clarion

 

Thus speaks a Chamades man !