What Would You Do?

[MusingMuso]

the diapasons would need revoicing for EP action - and if it's a proper early stopped diapason, a very bad thing to do - you could too easily rob it of all its character.

or periods.....

I think this is a good scheme. I agree with PCND on his 2 points -

 

Great Tierce really should have a 2 2/3 first. I would have a 12th. I think what you're suggesting is just a bit too offbeat.

Have the Swell reed at 8' pitch. You can do the full swell thing with octave couplers off this easily - it would work well for that and it's so much more useful to have it fit in with the 8' swell foundations - you just don't have that option with 16' reeds unless you have a taste for thick mud...

 

You would have to put the Great mixture on the 4' flute slide - I don't know whether it would fit. You might also have a problem with a full compass 12th on the dulciana slide.

 

I would be less inclined to develop the choir organ too much vertically. I would probably change it to

 

Choir (unenclosed)

Lieblich Gedackt 8

Keraulophon 8

Suabe Flute 4

Piccolo 2 (on old Dulciana slide)

Clarinet 8 (TC)

 

So only one alteration. This gives - to me - a better balence between upperwork and more 8' options for romantic music and fits better with the bias of the instrument.

 

Just thinking about it, you might have space on the grid of the swell soundboard to put a mixture (starting at 2' pitch, probably) on in the place of the proposed 2'. Just an idea.

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Experience of these things tends to suggest otherwise. The 16ft reed thing is quite important, because you will note that the softer of the two 16ft pedal Bourdons has disappeared, and the 16ft Bassoon would be the alternative softer bass. I could argue that an 8ft Oboe is easy with Swell to Great 4, (or played an octave up) if the organ has one, and no-one ever plays an Oboe 8ft in the top octave (do they?).

 

The lack of a twelfth just doesn't matter; the pipework will have plenty of gravity without it. All that Tierce is doing is acting as a binder, in the usual style of a Fr.Willis mixture, 17:19:22, but could also provide a nice solo or colouring register in combination with other things.

 

The Choir organ, as I explained earlier, will almost certainly be far too subdued and possibly buried behind the Swell, or at right-angles to the Great; if I know anything about the usual style of such organs. To be of any use at all, it would need upperwork, and this would be the ONLY alternative chorus to the Great in the absence of a Swell mixture, which, we must recall, has only 6 sliderson on which to plant anything.

 

With so few stops, we can't have everything!

 

MM

[Vox Humana]

So - what exactly did they do with it there?!

Something that looks very imaginitive (I tracked it down on NPOR!)

[pcnd5584]

===================

 

Experience of these things tends to suggest otherwise. The 16ft reed thing is quite important, because you will note that the softer of the two 16ft pedal Bourdons has disappeared, and the 16ft Bassoon would be the alternative softer bass. I could argue that an 8ft Oboe is easy with Swell to Great 4, (or played an octave up) if the organ has one, and no-one ever plays an Oboe 8ft in the top octave (do they?).

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That is not the point, though. If one were just using it as a solo stop, then playing up an octave is not a problem. However, if it is only available at 16p pitch, then it cannot be used with stops from its own department as a unison colourant - something which I regard as very important.

 

 

The lack of a twelfth just doesn't matter; the pipework will have plenty of gravity without it.  All that Tierce is doing is acting as a binder, in the usual style of a Fr.Willis mixture, 17:19:22, but could also provide a nice solo or colouring register in combination with other things.

 

MM

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But that was my point! In combination with what, exactly?! There is no 4p flute, no Nazard and no 2p flute. Personally on a GO of this size, I think that a Tierce is a luxury the space for which I could not afford.

 

However, as you say - with an instrument of this size, one cannot have everything.

[Vox Humana]

However, if it is only available at 16p pitch, then it cannot be used with stops from its own department as a unison colourant - something which I regard as very important.

Me too. In my book an Swell 8ft Oboe is an essential ingredient for warming the tone of the ensemble.

[Colin Harvey]

===================

 

Experience of these things tends to suggest otherwise. The 16ft reed thing is quite important, because you will note that the softer of the two 16ft pedal Bourdons has disappeared, and the 16ft Bassoon would be the alternative softer bass. I could argue that an 8ft Oboe is easy with Swell to Great 4, (or played an octave up) if the organ has one, and no-one ever plays an Oboe 8ft in the top octave (do they?).

 

The lack of a twelfth just doesn't matter; the pipework will have plenty of gravity without it.  All that Tierce is doing is acting as a binder, in the usual style of a Fr.Willis mixture, 17:19:22, but could also provide a nice solo or colouring register in combination with other things.

I don't agree. People won't understand what the tierce is there for and I don't think a tierce by itself, unsuported with no nazard or quint but with 8,4,2 principals is a particularly nice solo sound.

The Choir organ, as I explained earlier, will almost certainly be far too subdued and possibly buried behind the Swell, or at right-angles to the Great;  if I know anything about the usual style of such organs. To be of any use at all, it would need upperwork, and this would be the ONLY alternative chorus to the Great in the absence of a Swell mixture, which, we must recall, has only 6 sliderson on which to plant anything.

 

 

MM

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In that case, it's a problem with placement and grafting some upperwork on top of some light flutes is not going to solve it. It's just going to sound anorexic, like so many 1970s choirs organs that suffered this type of baroquisation. I've played organs with the type of chorus you suggest, voiced by eminent people in the 50s and 70s and it simply didn't work but I've played very similar choir organs to the one I propose and they are much more satisfactory and useful. It won't balence against full Great but it's never going to in any case.

 

I agree with VH and PCND that you want the oboe to blend with the foundations on its own manual and I'd far rather have a 8 oboe over a 16' pedal reed, however much I like pedal reeds...

 

PCND: Early english stopped diapasons are generally voiced quick and dull and tend to cough when put on EP action. So it's usually necessary to do a bit of re-setting of speech, with deeper nicks, possibly altering the extremely delicately judged flues (which are cut out of the cap). It's a very delicate operation and far better to keep them on mechanical action if at all possible. But I'm glad yours works and sounds nice (it has probably has been altered, though), although I wouldn't sanction it on old pipes if at all possible. I'd get a new "Stopped diapason" or one that was originally on pnematic or ep action.

[Brian Childs]

Seated one day at an organ where I was only a stand-in, the vicar rather unexpectedly asked me to draw up a plan for a rebuild. He said that he thought the nature of the organ was the reason he couldn't attract an organist.  He was (in this case) not the problem - rare I know, but please continue to suspend your disbelief!

 

By the way: if anyone out there knows the organ either before or since my interventions, please don't give the game away too soon!

 

Having listened to about twenty sermons in my life and sat through several thousand, redesigning stop-lists is a fairly regular pastime.... so this invitation caught me rather unawares, but a great challenge ... what would you do?

 

The job was:  (stops names changed here and there to spare the innocent)

by a well-known Midlands organbuilder from the 1880s - by this time already radically rebuilt at least once and now boasting an effective electropneumatic action.  Please note: No un-used space inside whatsoever - no room to add even one small rank without losing something else.

 

Great

Open Diapason 8 (huge)

Clarabella 8

Dulciana 8

Wald Flute 4

Principal 4

Piccolo 2

Trumpet 8 (TC - replacing, I assume an earlier TC Clarinet)

 

Swell

Libelich Bourdon  16 (also on Pedal)

Geigen Diapason 8 (bass outside the box!)

Gamba 8

Celeste 8 (TC)

Harmonic Flute 4

Oboe 8

 

Choir (unenclosed)

Lieblich Gedackt 8

Dulciana 8

Keraulophon 8

Suabe Flute 4

Clarinet (TC)

 

Pedal

Acoustic Bass 32

Big Bourdon 16

Lieblich Bourdon 16

Bass Flute 8

 

usual couplers incl. Swell to Great octave and suboctave

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The question I believe is what would you do ? The first thing I personally would do would be to ask them (1) how much money they envisioned spending and (2) did they actually have the cash currently in hand or was it a question of raising it ? Depending on the answers received , I might then decide that further mental endeavours were not justified and unlikely to prove fruitful!

 

BAC

[Guest Lee Blick]

I have been pondering over the original spec and to be honest in my opinion I think I would dump the whole instrument and start again, maybe in an area not so cramped perhaps a nice modest baroque affair, or as a last resort replace it with a digital organ.

[MusingMuso]

I have been pondering over the original spec and to be honest in my opinion I think I would dump the whole instrument and start again, maybe in an area not so cramped perhaps a nice modest baroque affair,  or as a last resort replace it with a digital organ. 

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==========================

 

Go stand in the corner with a Spitzflute on your head Lee!!!!!!!!!

 

Digital indeed !?&^££"!£$

 

MM

[pcnd5584]

Bad Dobby.

 

BIFF!

[Pierre Lauwers]

I have been pondering over the original spec and to be honest in my opinion I think I would dump the whole instrument and start again, maybe in an area not so cramped perhaps a nice modest baroque affair,  or as a last resort replace it with a digital organ. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No need to dump anything then...

Pierre

[Guest Lee Blick]

But aren't there a lot of these organs about with incomplete choruses, shoved up in cramped organ chambers, totally unloved and they just end up not getting used or get thrown out? Am I wrong in thinking that organ builders today make more of an effort to provide complete choruses and better thought-out designs?

[pcnd5584]

But aren't there a lot of these organs about with incomplete choruses, shoved up in cramped organ chambers, totally unloved and they just end up not getting used or get thrown out?  Am I wrong in thinking that organ builders today make more of an effort to provide complete choruses and better thought-out designs?

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Yes - you make a good point, Lee. Although I suspect that it is largely due to changing demands and taste - and playing styles. After all, the organ builders are generally supplying what the customer has asked for. Not many organists want an organ suitable for orchestral transcriptions, these days.

 

You do wonder quite what anyone was thinking though, with a design (and apparent sound) like the example which we are busily re-designing.

[Pierre Lauwers]

" better thought-out designs?"

(Quote)

 

We too are just dust, and I would not take for granted our "better"

will be understand that way in fifty years...

Pierre

[Colin Harvey]

The question I believe is what would you do ? The first thing I personally would do would be to ask them (1) how much money they envisioned spending and (2) did they actually have the cash currently in hand or was it a question of raising it ? Depending on the answers received , I might then decide that further mental endeavours were not justified and unlikely to prove fruitful!

 

BAC

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The money thing is always a bit chicken and egg. I think 1 is a very dangerous question because you could end up limiting yourself to a tiny budget which may not be that useful (or very useful, depending - I've seen some truely mad proposals that thankfully never made it due to lack of money). I think the best approach is to decide what the options are and then decide on the best philosophy to take to the project.

 

As a case in point, my organ project started out with an initial ballpark of about £30,000 to fix the soundboards and sort out the pedal organ. We looked at the options, got better professional advice and let the church decide what they wanted to do (after some excellent communication and presentation of the options). The project eventually evolved into providing a new organ (heavily influenced by a historical style), roof repairs over the chancel and organ and the budget is now over £300,000.

[pcnd5584]

I would be interested to know how your church proposes to fund this - an appeal, perhaps?

 

My own church, at some point in the near future, will be facing the task of finding a slightly larger sum and we could do with some ideas, please!

[pcnd5584]

PCND: Early english stopped diapasons are generally voiced quick and dull and tend to cough when put on EP action. So it's usually necessary to do a bit of re-setting of speech, with deeper nicks, possibly altering the extremely delicately judged flues (which are cut out of the cap). It's a very delicate operation and far better to keep them on mechanical action if at all possible. But I'm glad yours works and sounds nice (it has probably has been altered, though), although I wouldn't sanction it on old pipes if at all possible. I'd get a new "Stopped diapason" or one that was originally on pnematic or ep action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Certainly, I was aware that such stops (and many others) can 'cough' when being activated by electro-pneumatic action (if they formerly spoke via mechanical action). The actual opening of the pallet is usually so quick and 'explosive' that the pipes are literally choked with air.

 

However, I am still puzzled by something - sorry! I had understood that the flue is the gap between the inner surface of the pipe lip and the front edge of the languid (with or without nicking). Since therefore the flue does not actually exist as a solid item, rather that it is space between two physical surfaces (which are themselves adjusted, in conjunction with the foot-holes during voicing) I am unsure as to what you mean by ...'the extremely delicately judged flues (which are cut out of the cap).' Can you further elucidate, please!

[Colin Harvey]

Certainly, I was aware that such stops (and many others) can 'cough' when being activated by electro-pneumatic action (if they formerly spoke via mechanical action). The actual opening of the pallet is usually so quick and 'explosive' that the pipes are literally choked with air.

 

However, I am still puzzled by something - sorry! I had understood that the flue is the gap between the inner surface of the pipe lip and the front edge of the languid (with or without nicking). Since therefore the flue does not actually exist as a solid item, rather that it is space between two physical surfaces (which are themselves adjusted, in conjunction with the foot-holes during voicing) I am unsure as to what you mean by ...'the extremely delicately judged flues (which are cut out of the cap).' Can you further elucidate, please!

 

I would be interested to know how your church proposes to fund this - an appeal, perhaps?

 

My own church, at some point in the near future, will be facing the task of finding a slightly larger sum and we could do with some ideas, please!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll write an answer for you this evening- rather busy today! If you want to talk further about fundraising, etc, I could email you...

[Vox Humana]

If you want to talk further about fundraising, etc, I could email you...

I wonder whether this might be of more general interest. Would it be worth starting a new thread?

[MusingMuso]

I wonder whether this might be of more general interest. Would it be worth starting a new thread?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

======================

 

Before we do, could we please discover what Paul actually did with this stop-list?

 

The suspense is destroying me!

 

MM

[Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk]

======================

 

Before we do, could we please discover what Paul actually did with this stop-list?

 

The suspense is destroying me!

 

MM

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Dear MM,

happy to oblige.

Actually, I drew up the scheme expecting someone else to be asked to do it and some years later was suddenly invited to suggest a cost for doin g it myself. The job took about three months, two months of which were my school summer holiday. Most of the work was done by members of my family and the bill came to around £6k if I remember rightly. Inland Revenue know all about it, sadly. The trouble about working out costs is that I always forget that our government requires a major share of all proceeds!

 

Great

Open Diapason 8 Softened

[Guest paul@trinitymusic.karoo.co.uk]

======================

 

Before we do, could we please discover what Paul actually did with this stop-list?

 

The suspense is destroying me!

 

MM

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Dear MM,

happy to oblige. I thought people might like a real-life case to think about - specification drawing is fun, but quite a challenge when it is a real job with real limits. The organ is at Holy Trinity, Stroud and the job was done about seven years ago.

 

Actually, I drew up the scheme expecting someone else to be asked to do it and three years later was suddenly invited to suggest a cost for doing it myself. The job took about three months, two months of which were my school summer holiday. Most of the work was done by members of my family and the bill came to around £6k if I remember rightly. The trouble about working out costs is that I always forget that our government requires a major share of all proceeds! All 'new' pipework had been rescued from other jobs, notably St.Paul's Walsall.

 

Great

Open Diapason 8 - Softened - turned out a nice (even if still big) stop

Clarabella 8 - left alone

Dulciana 8 - left alone

Principal 4 - left alone (now acting as a proper octave, however!)

Harmonic Flute 4 - moved from Swell - previously non-descript under enclosure, it's gorgeous!

Fifteenth 2 - new to this organ

Mixture - II-III - new to this organ, starts 26-29 (very little room!), breaks back and 12th added at TC. This replaced the TC Trumpet

 

Swell

Lieblich Bourdon 16 - had to stay - because chest was common with pedal and nowhere else to put the pipes

Geigen Diapason 8 - softened - stopped bass hung inside the box above Trebles

Celeste 8 - Choir Keraulophon moved and sharpened

Principal 4 - new to this job

Mixture II - new to this job, 19.22 (breaking back around treble G)

Trumpet 8 - new to this job and complete from CC

 

Choir

Gedackt 8 - left alone

'Suabe Flute' 4 - turned out still very dull, eventually replaced with a stopped flute

Nazard 2.2/3 - replaced TC Dulciana

Piccolo 2 - from Great, replaced Keraulophon

Clarinet - left alone

 

Pedal

Left alone - no space whatsoever

 

In the end, it made no sense to alter any of the mechanism, with the exception of a little rewiring to make the stopkeys and pistons follow the new order of things.

Tonally I am very proud of it - the Great chorus 8.4.2 is superb as is the transferred 4' flute. it made sense to keep one Dulciana and two 4' flutes, but a Dulciana and a 4' flute on each manual was surely too much!

The complete Trumpet being in the box makes it considerably more useful and now it can be employed with the octave couplers. A curious Swell spec but one that works pretty well in practice.

 

Lacunae: the present organist misses the little Oboe - well we retained the pipes and have stored it under the reservoir in case anyone ever wants to reverse this change - but where could it have been put if it were to remain playable? I miss an enclosed 8' flute, (one can play an octave up on the Swell Bourdon if one keeps within a g56 compass) but then I would have missed having Celestes even more and the Swell had to have a chorus. Actually the 'Celestes' are another success - it was a question of needs must, but a quick trial of the intended 'pair' proved just the job. The box is good and they can be shut down well within usual expectations.

 

Full organ is very grand, and only the lack of a pedal reed is felt. Mind you, at least the Trumpet has a bottom octave now.

 

I originally specified a Twelfth on the Great instead of the Dulciana, but the Diocesan Organs Advisor (Michael Peterson at the time) suggested that the Dulciana should be kept and he was quite right. I accept this now, and the various softer combinations on Sw and Gt really bear out his opinion.

[David Coram]

My turn!

 

Great

Open Diapason 8 (huge)

Clarabella 8

Gamba 8 (ex Swell)

Harmonic Flute 4

Principal 4

Fifteenth 2

Trumpet 8 (TC - replacing, I assume an earlier TC Clarinet)

 

Swell

Libelich Bourdon 16 (also on Pedal)

Geigen Diapason 8 (bass outside the box!)

Wald Flute 4

Celeste 8 (TC)

Mixture 15.19.22 (breaks on F#, 8.12.15 by mid f#)

Oboe 8

 

Choir (unenclosed)

Lieblich Gedackt 8

Suabe Flute 4

Piccolo 2 (ex Gt)

Sesquialtera II

Clarinet (TC)

 

Pedal

Acoustic Bass 32

Big Bourdon 16

Lieblich Bourdon 16

Bass Flute 8

 

 

usual couplers incl. Swell to Great octave and suboctave

 

1 swap (sw and gt flutes)

horsetrade Sw Gamba in place of Gt Dulciana, Gt Piccolo in place of Ch Keralophon

New ranks: Gt 15th, Ch Sesquialtera, Sw Mixture

 

Shouldn't be too expensive and I'd be happy playing it.

[pcnd5584]

This is not a bad scheme, although I would wish to include the lowest twelve notes of the GO Trumpet. There may well be room on the soundboard - Clarinet ranks often stop at C13 for no particularly good reason!