Notre Dame

[flûte harmonique]

The Cochereau console was not retained in 1992 because it was built with fragile materials. Only keyboards and registers have been reused. If Cochereau was still alive, he tried to constantly improve his organ by not distorting it as he had done in 1965 with Boisseau.

[pwhodges]

Apparently a much bigger collapse was closer than we might have imagined, according to this piece in the New York Times.  Though actually, the main point seems to be why there was a delay in the initial reporting (an employee sent to check went to the Sacristy to check for fire instead of to the Cathedral, for instance).

[pwhodges]

Remember all that money pledged by billionaires towards the repairs?

No comment

Paul

[John Robinson]

1 hour ago, pwhodges said:

Remember all that money pledged by billionaires towards the repairs?

No comment

Paul

They seem as believable and trustworthy as our politicians!

I suppose the Roman Catholic Church might chip in then?  I'm sure they can afford it.

[S_L]

2 hours ago, John Robinson said:

They seem as believable and trustworthy as our politicians!

I suppose the Roman Catholic Church might chip in then?  I'm sure they can afford it.

The organ doesn't belong to the Roman Catholic Church - it belongs to the French State - as does the Cathedral of Notre Dame!!!

[Rowland Wateridge]

If building contracts in France are anything like UK ones, payments will be made in instalments as the work progresses at agreed stages of completion.  First, the work and costs must be subject to contract.  Wealthy billionaires are likely to think in such terms automatically.  They will expect to see invoices and certificates of completion.  That’s the kind of world they inhabit.  We know that emergency works have been carried out already, and the Cathedral must have incurred substantial expense.  So far, it seems, the billionaire donors have paid €20 million, equivalent to just under 7% of their publicly-announced pledges.  The suggestion that they might try to avoid honouring their pledges by vetoing plans may be no more than sensationalist journalism.  I think Paul Hodges was safer saying “No comment”.

PS   I have only seen S_L’s comment after writing the above.  I think what he says reinforces my scepticism about the press reporting.

PPS   If this turns out to be a Government rather than Church responsibility (as S_L’s post would suggest) EU procurement rules might apply, and tenders for the work would have to be advertised in all EU countries. 

[S_L]

11 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

 If this turns out to be a Government rather than Church responsibility (as S_L’s post would suggest) EU procurement rules might apply, and tenders for the work would have to be advertised in all EU countries. 

I'm not suggesting - I am saying that is a French Government responsibility which is why Macron (and not Pape Francois or ++Michel Aupetit)  was able to say that it would be rebuilt in five years. A statement that he may well live to regret!

The French have a strange relationship with Notre Dame. My neighbour was in tears when he heard the news of the fire. His wife took exactly the opposite view. As far as she was concerned the money donated could well be better spent on other things. The 3,800 people who live on the streets of Paris feel a bit the same, so I'm told.

The rebuilding has got absolutely nothing to do with the Roman Catholic church. Outside Beauvais cathedral there used to be a sign, put there, I suspect, by the clergy. It explained, I can't remember the exact wording, that the building was the property of the state and, as such, the state was responsible for it's upkeep. The RC church was responsible for the spiritual welfare of the parish and those who visited.   …………………… or something like that!

It doesn't work like in the UK!! It's not the Church of England!

[Rowland Wateridge]

Thank you for enlightening us, S_L!  I will amend my ‘if’ to ‘as this turns out to be a French Government responsibility’ etc.  I’m afraid that leads to the distinct possibility that tenders for the work will have to be invited throughout the EU unless, of course, the French Government can somehow circumvent the EU rules! 

My primary point was that the wealthy donors were possibly being misrepresented in the press reporting.  Surely they knew that it was the State, rather than the Church, which would be responsible for the rebuilding.  I understand that most of the contents were saved due to the gallant efforts of the Paris fire service, but there will be some restoration costs, so maybe some of the pledged donations will be used for that..

[John Robinson]

14 hours ago, S_L said:

The organ doesn't belong to the Roman Catholic Church - it belongs to the French State - as does the Cathedral of Notre Dame!!!

Yes, so I understand.  Still, there's no reason they can't contribute if they want to.  After all, the RC Church makes regular use of the cathedral... AND the organ!

[S_L]

1 hour ago, John Robinson said:

Yes, so I understand.  Still, there's no reason they can't contribute if they want to.  After all, the RC Church makes regular use of the cathedral... AND the organ!

You, clearly, don't understand the separation of Church and State that exists in France

[Damian Beasley-Suffolk]

The separation of church and state in France is founded in the law of 1905. To learn more about this, the Wikipedia page is as good a place to start as any: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State

This doesn't apply just to catholics. The principle of laïcité applies extensively. Recently, I saw a French TV programme in which the director of a school was having to order students coming in to adjust any overtly religious clothing. Mostly muslim girls, or course, although they were at least allowed to wear their headscarves as bandanas. But that's just one relatively small point in the grand scheme. A major part of what makes fin de siècle France so fascinating, in almost every respect - its many warts and all, but not least culturally, musically and organ-ly.

[John Robinson]

7 hours ago, S_L said:

You, clearly, don't understand the separation of Church and State that exists in France

Clearly.

[Zimbelstern]

Who pays the organists in France? (If they are paid at all!)

[S_L]

2 hours ago, Zimbelstern said:

Who pays the organists in France? (If they are paid at all!)

I don't know! But not, I suspect, the church. Most, even in the 'well-thought-of' places, are paid very little, much less than a Director of Music or Organist in an English cathedral, which is why they usually combine their position as 'Titulaire' with a teaching post in the local Conservatoire de Musique or supplement their income by giving recitals! Playing for the Mass, is left to the player of the orgue de choeur who, even in a cathedral, might be, though not necessarily, quite amateurish. However if the Gloria or Credo is sung antiphonally, as at St. Eustache in Paris, for instance, the antiphony is between the choir accompanied by the orgue de choeur and the congregation 'accompanied' (interesting word!!) by the Grande Orgue. The Titulaire will play before the Mass, often an improvisation during the offertory and at the end.  

[Zimbelstern]

https://lyon.catholique.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Document-officiel-nomination-organistes.pdf

The above document makes it clear that, in the diocese of Lyons at least, it is the parish which employs the organist and which is responsible for remunerating him or her. 

[S_L]

2 hours ago, Zimbelstern said:

https://lyon.catholique.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Document-officiel-nomination-organistes.pdf

The above document makes it clear that, in the diocese of Lyons at least, it is the parish which employs the organist and which is responsible for remunerating him or her. 

Thank you for that. But, apart from my second sentence "not, I suspect, the church" the rest of my post applies. However, if you knew the answer I am mystified why you posted the question.

[DaveHarries]

Although the console which was in use for the great organ at the time of the fire is now a write-off I thought this might be of interest. The clip dates from 2016 and shows the arrival of the console at ND when it was new.

 

HTIOI,

Dave

[flûte harmonique]

On 20/07/2019 at 09:49, Zimbelstern said:

Who pays the organists in France? (If they are paid at all!)

The parish.

Around 200€/ month for the sunday services in the major churches and nothing for the small ones.

The choir organist of Notre-Dame has the highest salary of all the French organists as his presence is (was) required every day for several services!

[pcnd5584]

On 21/07/2019 at 18:32, DaveHarries said:

Although the console which was in use for the great organ at the time of the fire is now a write-off I thought this might be of interest. The clip dates from 2016 and shows the arrival of the console at ND when it was new.

 

HTIOI,

Dave

Is this definitely the case, though?

It is clear that the console is covered in the same dry dust-like substance which also covers most of the organ, but I think that I read somewhere that the electrical components were largely in good condition because they were contained in small boxes, or protected with some type of hard covering. If this is the case, the keys, draw-stops, pedals, etc, could perhaps be cleaned. Does anyone have any further information, please?

[flûte harmonique]

6 hours ago, pcnd5584 said:

Is this definitely the case, though?

It is clear that the console is covered in the same dry dust-like substance which also covers most of the organ, but I think that I read somewhere that the electrical components were largely in good condition because they were contained in small boxes, or protected with some type of hard covering. If this is the case, the keys, draw-stops, pedals, etc, could perhaps be cleaned. Does anyone have any further information, please?

The organ of Notre-Dame is entirely covered with a layer of dust resulting from the combustion of several elements (wood of the frame, lead of the roof, to which could be added particles of the binder of the joints of stones, etc. .). The impact that this mixture can have on the material (pipes for example) according to its composition and the hygrometric variations that the great organ undergoes, and that it will undergo still from here to its cleaning remains for the moment unknown.
Samples of pipes and dust were entrusted for analysis to the Historic Monuments Research Laboratory (LRMH) of the Culture Department.
At the same time, and to accelerate the protection of the instrument, a protocol for decontamination, preservation, protection and cleaning measures has been proposed by Mr. Christian Lutz, authorized technical consultant of the Ministry of Culture for the great organ of Notre Dame de Paris, in liaison with the architect of historical monuments in charge of Notre-Dame, Mr. Philippe Villeneuve, who is particularly aware of the situation of the organs in the cathedral. The project management of these operations is under the responsibility of the regional department of cultural affairs of Ile-de-France.
(Source: "Organ in France")

[handsoff]

Oliver Latry,  in an article printed in The Times this morning, says that the organ in Notre Dame may well be playable within 3 years. The article is ahead of his Proms appearance next Sunday morning.

[Rowland Wateridge]

Philippe Lefebvre from Notre Dame is also in England two days later, on Tuesday 6th August at Selby Abbey, 12.30 pm, playing this programme:

                 César Franck:  Choral No 3 in A minor

                 Louis Vierne:  ‘Clair de Lune’;   ‘Cathédrales’

                 Claude Debussy (arranged Philippe Lefebvre):  ‘La Cathédrale engloutie’

                 Marcel Dupré:  ‘Résurrection’

                 Maurice Duruflé:  Prelude and fugue on the name ‘Alain’

                 Philippe Lefebvre:  Improvisation on a theme presented by John Scott Whiteley

The titles of three of those pieces seem very appropriate to the present situation at Notre Dame.