Worcester Cathedral.

[Martin Cooke]

3 hours ago, Choir Man said:

During the final hymn he retired to the organ loft to play the voluntary. I wonder how many other cathedral DOMs do this?

This has not been an unusual phenomenon in cathedrals over the last 50 years. You can see Robert Sharpe do it regularly if you watch York on Youtube, and I have seen Ben Nicholas do it at Merton, but at quite a number of other cathedrals/ college chapels that I have watched over the last two years, the DoM seems to stay 'downstairs' so I asm not sure it is commonplace anymore. 

[handsoff]

Although not a cathedral but a choir with equally high standards a lot of the time, Andrew Fletcher sometimes would play the final hymn at St Mary's Warwick particularly after the installation of the then new Nicholson organ

This usually meant fireworks with a huge final verse re-harmonisation (I know that these have now fallen out of favour but I love them) going straight into a stunning improvisation on that hymn tune. On these occasions the choir would hang around by the vestry door to listen after processing west down the nave aisle and back up the north side.

 

 

 

[Rowland Wateridge]

1 hour ago, handsoff said:

Andrew Fletcher sometimes would play the final hymn at St Mary's Warwick …

Now that you remind me, I recall Martin Neary doing this before playing the voluntary.

[Martin Cooke]

17 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

Now that you remind me, I recall Martin Neary doing this before playing the voluntary.

And, actually, this is what I meant. DoM leaves the chancel floor after the anthem or before the sermon, in order to play final hymn and voluntary. I don't know how much playing the DoM ever gets in some places. It must be quite a 'thing' to get promotion to a new post and end up largely conducting the choir. I wonder if some regret it.

[handsoff]

6 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

And, actually, this is what I meant. DoM leaves the chancel floor after the anthem or before the sermon, in order to play final hymn and voluntary. I don't know how much playing the DoM ever gets in some places. It must be quite a 'thing' to get promotion to a new post and end up largely conducting the choir. I wonder if some regret it.

I have often wondered this. I love the English tradition of choral music with and without organ accompaniment but would have no interest in training nor conducting a choir. With my inherent lack of talent the situation never arose but when very young I had the ambition to be a cathedral organist meaning just that. I would have wanted to be on the console at all times rather than in front of the choir waving my hands around, not at all to decry the traditional DoM doing this every day and for whose expertise I am grateful. It does sometimes seem a shame to me that one spends years learning, practising and gaining diplomas when much of the career is spent as a choral director rather than an organist.

I recall an interview with Thomas Trotter who expressed similar sentiments saying that the only choir he had conducted was that at KCC and that was fine by him.

Perhaps one of the forum members in this position might give us all an insight...

 

[sjf1967]

I went from playing 8 services a week, with two voluntaries at each, to playing, at most, once a week on a Sunday evening when I became a DoM. I made very sure to keep playing as much as possible outside the cathedral, solo and ensemble/continuo - for the sake of my musical self-esteem and sanity, and because otherwise I would have wasted 20 years of my life. I sometimes had to 'keep the shop open solo' when circumstances dictated, but I remember David Hill saying that he never felt you could do both things as well as you'd like in the same service, and I think he was right.

[Martin Cooke]

18 hours ago, sjf1967 said:

I went from playing 8 services a week, with two voluntaries at each, to playing, at most, once a week on a Sunday evening when I became a DoM. I made very sure to keep playing as much as possible outside the cathedral, solo and ensemble/continuo - for the sake of my musical self-esteem and sanity, and because otherwise I would have wasted 20 years of my life. I sometimes had to 'keep the shop open solo' when circumstances dictated, but I remember David Hill saying that he never felt you could do both things as well as you'd like in the same service, and I think he was right.

That's very interesting, Stephen - thank you. The other 'habit' that seems to have set in fairly recently, is for the DoM to leave the choir to 'get on with it' during the Psalms whilst not playing themselves. So, ADoM/Organ Scholar in the loft plays a chord, plays a chord, the DoM goes and sits down along with the congregation, and the choir sings with heads wagging... which looks awful and almost comic. Why they can't use a hand or even a finger, I can't understand. 

[handsoff]

Yes, thank you Stephen; an interesting insight in the subject which confirms my initial thought. It strikes me that there may be scope for more cathedrals to operate the St Paul's model with a DoM who is not an organist. This would give new entrants to the profession with more interest in playing than directing  opportunities to follow the course that they prefer. I can see no reason why a good organist wishing to play for the English tradition must of necessity be a good  choir trainer and director. 

A similar sort of career progression was followed in my own subject. The company for whom I worked automatically promoted a newly qualified actuary to a management position with responsibility for staff and related matters. In practice the two disciplines rarely coincided and caused many problems for everyone.

[Martin Cooke]

Variations on this theme...

Here is Robert Sharpe accompanying the first hymn at the Eucharist at York this morning.

[contraviolone]

I can remember the late Simon Preston conducting the service from the Quire stalls, but disappearing for the last hymn to play the voluntary.

[DQB123]

•  

Posted Sunday at 16:04

Variations on this theme...

Here is Robert Sharpe accompanying the first hymn at the Eucharist at York this morning.

 

I love the recessional Psalm....

Edited January 31, 2023 by D Quentin Bellamy
quote not included....

[wolsey]

On 24/01/2023 at 13:04, Martin Cooke said:

[...]The other 'habit' that seems to have set in fairly recently, is for the DoM to leave the choir to 'get on with it' during the Psalms whilst not playing themselves. [...]

It's far from recent, and appears to be a return to what was the case decades ago; I've now gone back to doing it myself. During my younger years, I remember noting that Philip Ledger at King's, George Guest at Johns (including Peter Hurford during GHG's sabbatical), and both Sidney Campbell and Christopher Robinson at Windsor being absent from the quire at the start of service (often in the organ-loft), and coming down either during or after the first lesson to conduct the Magnificat etc. The reason for this? The choir (especially the top line) needs to concentrate totally on accuracy of pointing and ensemble in the psalms, and the skill of listening along and across the stalls is heightened. The skill is demonstrated by a number of a cappella choirs without a conductor (e.g. King's Singers) - and, of course, chamber music ensembles and others.  Incidentally, I know of one foundation where until 2001, the then DoM often accompanied the psalms.

[Martin Cooke]

4 hours ago, wolsey said:

It's far from recent, and appears to be a return to what was the case decades ago; I've now gone back to doing it myself. During my younger years, I remember noting that Philip Ledger at King's, George Guest at Johns (including Peter Hurford during GHG's sabbatical), and both Sidney Campbell and Christopher Robinson at Windsor being absent from the quire at the start of service (often in the organ-loft), and coming down either during or after the first lesson to conduct the Magnificat etc. The reason for this? The choir (especially the top line) needs to concentrate totally on accuracy of pointing and ensemble in the psalms, and the skill of listening along and across the stalls is heightened. The skill is demonstrated by a number of a cappella choirs without a conductor (e.g. King's Singers) - and, of course, chamber music ensembles and others.  Incidentally, I know of one foundation where until 2001, the then DoM often accompanied the psalms.

Yes, I think it's one thing for the DoM to be in the organ loft, accompanying the psalms, but it seems curious for the psalms to be unaccompanied and the DoM and the ADoM (or whatever their title) to not participate by playing or conducting, especially when the alernative is an almost absurd and distracting wagging of heads on either side. Why can't the 'leads' either side use a hand or a finger?

[pwhodges]

40 minutes ago, Martin Cooke said:

Why can't the 'leads' either side use a hand or a finger?

When I was at Christ Church in the '50s (and visiting as a student in the '60s), a finger was used.  And Sidney only came down to conduct for a cappella pieces.  There was at that time no separate organist or assistant, and the organ scholar only got quite limited outings (though more in the later period).

Paul